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Carnival Cruise Line Terminates Thousands of Crew Members and Senior Shipboard Officers


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I don't consider spending tens of billions of dollars on stock buybacks responsible management. AFAIK, airlines are still not prohibited from stock buybacks. It just isn't responsible management when operating on "razor thin margins".

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18 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I don't consider spending tens of billions of dollars on stock buybacks responsible management. AFAIK, airlines are still not prohibited from stock buybacks. It just isn't responsible management when operating on "razor thin margins".

With hindsight always being 20/20 that is easy to say now and I would agree with that in retrospect that it was a bad decision. A year ago that was not the case. But I do not think it rises to the level of "mismanagement".  

Edited by stobe1
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29 minutes ago, stobe1 said:

In no way am I trying to get into an argument here and I hope this response isn't taken or misconstrued as such.  But what lesson are you referring to?  Do you have any idea the cost to operate a single flight between LAX and JFK?  I can tell you that airlines operate on razor thin margins and rely on volume to make profits.  The economics of airlines are very fragile and always have been.  Anyone that flies recreationally knows how expensive the costs are to fly for fun are.  The costs of flying an A321 or a B737 is exponentially more expensive. 

 

Airlines rarely charge what it actually costs to fly one person in one seat per mile known as CASM, or Cost per Available Seat Mile, from Point A to Point B.  They make that gap up from ancillary revenue like charging for bags, on board alcohol and food sales, upgrades and credit card programs.  Everyone complains about the "nickel and diming" but in reality the actual fare that was paid probably did not nearly cover the cost to get that passenger where they needed to  go from A to B.  Also, airlines are highly regulated by the FAA, DOT and DOJ which makes it even more expensive to just abide by the regulatory environment. As you can imagine, airline travel is a highly price sensitive and cost competitive market.

 

When revenues go away like we have seen the past 6+ months the entire system is unsustainable, no matter how well managed the airline is.  At the start of the pandemic, I was flying airplanes around with only 5 to 10 people on them.  Load factors have slowly picked up but it is no where near pre-Corona levels and likely will not be for a long time to come.  Just like many industries, the air transport system is vital to our nation's economy due to the need to transport cargo, mail and of course people.  

 

I am more than happy to go into a deeper dissertation on airline economics if you would like.  But calling the airlines in today's world as "mismanaged" is a bit unfair.

I think you and @Tapi would get along very well!

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11 minutes ago, stobe1 said:

With hindsight always being 20/20 that is easy to say now and I would agree with that in retrospect that it was a bad decision. A year ago that was not the case. But I do not think it rises to the level of "mismanagement".  

 

That is debatable. But not to pick only on airlines, Carnival also did numerous buybacks which helped lead to some of their financial difficulties. But then Carnival hasn't gone bankrupt and also isn't begging for a bailout.

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16 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

I think you and @Tapi would get along very well!

Lol actually we do!  

 

There is an old joke.  How do you know if there is an airline pilot at your party? Don't worry, he will tell you. Lol.

 

And I know I have said this before but I always appreciate your humor and get a good chuckle out of your posts. My humor in real life tends to be very sarcastic and can often be taken the wrong way.

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1 minute ago, stobe1 said:

Lol actually we do!  

 

There is an old joke.  How do you know if there is an airline pilot at your party? Don't worry, he will tell you. Lol.

I think that same joke works with someone who did the Disney College Program lol

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I was flying on Delta to ATL in 2A when an old guy got up, walked to the front and right into the cockpit. I alerted the flight attendant. She said it was OK. That was God, he thinks he's a pilot.

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37 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

I think you and @Tapi would get along very well!

Don’t drag me into this conversation! LOL

 

 I do agree with pretty much everything that stobe said though. There’s been so much focus on the stock buybacks that it has overshadowed the management decisions and changes that the airline industry has gone through over the last two decades in order to turn it from an industry that chronically lost money to one that could finally generate a profit (obviously before the pandemic). 

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12 minutes ago, Moviela said:

I was flying on Delta to ATL in 2A when an old guy got up, walked to the front and right into the cockpit. I alerted the flight attendant. She said it was OK. That was God, he thinks he's a pilot.

That is yet another pilot joke.

 

What is the difference between God and an airline pilot?

 

God doesn't think he is an airline pilot.

Edited by stobe1
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4 hours ago, stobe1 said:

 

I am more than happy to go into a deeper dissertation on airline economics if you would like.  But calling the airlines in today's world as "mismanaged" is a bit unfair.

I appreciate you taking the time to help us understand more. 

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40 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

I, too, would like to chime in and thank the recent participants in this thread for having a civil and interesting discourse.  

 

And the pilot jokes are also a nice distraction from reality!

Maybe we should add lawyer jokes.🤣

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16 hours ago, stobe1 said:

In no way am I trying to get into an argument here and I hope this response isn't taken or misconstrued as such.  But what lesson are you referring to?  Do you have any idea the cost to operate a single flight between LAX and JFK?  I can tell you that airlines operate on razor thin margins and rely on volume to make profits.  The economics of airlines are very fragile and always have been.  Anyone that flies recreationally knows how expensive the costs are to fly for fun are.  The costs of flying an A321 or a B737 is exponentially more expensive. 

 

Airlines rarely charge what it actually costs to fly one person in one seat per mile known as CASM, or Cost per Available Seat Mile, from Point A to Point B.  They make that gap up from ancillary revenue like charging for bags, on board alcohol and food sales, upgrades and credit card programs.  Everyone complains about the "nickel and diming" but in reality the actual fare that was paid probably did not nearly cover the cost to get that passenger where they needed to  go from A to B.  Also, airlines are highly regulated by the FAA, DOT and DOJ which makes it even more expensive to just abide by the regulatory environment. As you can imagine, airline travel is a highly price sensitive and cost competitive market.

 

When revenues go away like we have seen the past 6+ months the entire system is unsustainable, no matter how well managed the airline is.  At the start of the pandemic, I was flying airplanes around with only 5 to 10 people on them.  Load factors have slowly picked up but it is no where near pre-Corona levels and likely will not be for a long time to come.  Just like many industries, the air transport system is vital to our nation's economy due to the need to transport cargo, mail and of course people.  

 

I am more than happy to go into a deeper dissertation on airline economics if you would like.  But calling the airlines in today's world as "mismanaged" is a bit unfair.

How do they factor in the cargo under the seats?

 

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22 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

 

That is debatable. But not to pick only on airlines, Carnival also did numerous buybacks which helped lead to some of their financial difficulties. But then Carnival hasn't gone bankrupt and also isn't begging for a bailout.

The cruise lines would love a bailout, but the US Taxpayers will not go for it and they shouldn't!!

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On 9/21/2020 at 6:14 AM, regoodwinjr said:

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/09/articles/disease/carnival-cruise-line-terminates-thousands-of-crew-members-and-senior-shipboard-officers/

 

Bad news for those crew members but at least they're making decisions on which crews they will be bringing back once they restart.

I agree this is sad, but how could Carnival do any differ with no revenue.  I am afraid it will be a long time before  the cruise industry recovers, if ever. My family has enjoyed many affordable cruises but I think our future cruises will be more expensive and many of the smaller home ports that we like may lose their ships. 

Edited by Purvis1231
typo
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55 minutes ago, mpdog42 said:

The cruise lines would love a bailout, but the US Taxpayers will not go for it and they shouldn't!!

The next time a cruise line asks for a bailout will be the first. Meanwhile there seems to be no limit to the number of times airlines can go bankrupt. The US taxpayers deserve better.

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22 minutes ago, Purvis1231 said:

I agree this is sad, but how could Carnival do any differ with no revenue.  I am afraid it will be a long time before  the cruise industry recovers, if ever. My family has enjoyed many affordable cruises but I think our future cruises will be more expensive and many of the smaller home ports that we like may lose their ships. 

They had no choice withnthe reduction in their fleet and delays the cuts were inevitable. I think the cruise deals will continue since they will need to win back a high number of their regular customers.

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5 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

This is not true at all. There was NO layoffs totaling 7,000. This is confirmed by Carnival. 

 

so all the personnel that were working on the ships the Carnival Corp scrapped or sold are going to be absorbed by the remaining ships in the Carnival Corp fleets?

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50 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

This is not true at all. There was NO layoffs totaling 7,000. This is confirmed by Carnival. 

They put out a press release?

 

Or are you talking about John Heald's denial of knowledge of any layoffs?  I like John, but he can't be the one to state either way.

 

As noted, there are too few ships, and too many "existing" personnel.  I would hope that for the vast majority of regular crew that they know they might not get a new contract right away (even under normal circumstances with ship retirements and whatnot) and they have found work elsewhere.

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11 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

They put out a press release?

 

Or are you talking about John Heald's denial of knowledge of any layoffs?  I like John, but he can't be the one to state either way.

 

As noted, there are too few ships, and too many "existing" personnel.  I would hope that for the vast majority of regular crew that they know they might not get a new contract right away (even under normal circumstances with ship retirements and whatnot) and they have found work elsewhere.

It sounded like John was unaware of it until after he saw the posted letter from Carnival.

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The Chief Communications Officer for Carnival posted on his twitter account, you can go check. Plus the Fantasy class has 920 per ship so when you do the math, not anywhere near close to 7,000 esp when you have the Mardi Gras coming online in Feb w crew joining in December. That ship will have 1750 crew members. That ambulance chaser from Cruise Law News is wrong, again. 

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