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healthy sail panel recommendations are released


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3 hours ago, SHIP TRAVELER said:

That sounds hopeful.  I am struck by the huge undertaking this will be for Celebrity and RCCL.  We have all been on ships where certain excursions are sold out.   Planning to get everyone on the ship on  a safe excursion is going to be a challenge.  I am sure that cruise companies will be as eagar as passengers to return to the pre covid conditions for leaving a ship at ports.

Since they are talking about short cruises only to places like the private islands at first, seems shore excursions will be moot issue.  Many will find that great just to get on board.  Many others will say no.

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TUI has been following most of the protocols recommended since August.    Passengers are dealing with it.    Costa will be starting soon in Italy for Italian citizens.   As long as this virus is around your travel will be severely restricted.    Arriving at the port city ahead of time for a pre cruise vacation is a personal decision so if will be up to you to get a COVID screening in whatever state, or country you will be in 5 days prior to the cruise.

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24 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Bob- our local University has been running a couple thousand tests a day.  Over 5K tests done before kids could move into dorms. Little waiting for either test or results in 48 hours.  Tests are rapidly changing with cost coming down.  As for a doctor's order being required, at least here if you want one you go get one.  

I absolutely agree that once cruising is opened to international travellers things get complicated.  However, we are talking about short cruises to the private islands in the Bahamas right now for US cruisers.

Seems likely that cruising will be limited until borders open and airlines schedule accordingly.  For some months Canada and most of Europe seem to be closed to Americans.


Thanks but I think we need super quick tests. By the way where is Frostbite Falls? Not near Frostproof, Florida

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52 minutes ago, RedneckBob said:


Thanks but I think we need super quick tests. By the way where is Frostbite Falls? Not near Frostproof, Florida

I am known in the car hobby as the Moose Man.  Do you remember Rocky and Bullwinkle?

Agree on tests.  They will be just fine while only those from US cruising to a private island.  Hope we have a vaccine early spring.  It will take that to get borders to open.  We spent some years in both Canada and Australia.  Cannot see friends in either country.  Friends suggested neither will open their borders till we have a vaccine.  They all think spring of next year.  Hard to resume much cruising with countries closed.

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Seems that LPP is good to go.    Here is part of her message to Captains Club Members received today.

 

"I am thrilled to share that we have reached a very important milestone in our plans to return to service. As you know, earlier this year we assembled an acclaimed team of experts to advise us on the right approach with a special emphasis on safety, security and health. After months of work, the Healthy Sail Panel has completed their review and feels confident that cruising can move forward in the current environment and has shared their recommendations for doing so with the Centers for Disease Control. "

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1 hour ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Bob- our local University has been running a couple thousand tests a day.  Over 5K tests done before kids could move into dorms. Little waiting for either test or results in 48 hours.  Tests are rapidly changing with cost coming down.  As for a doctor's order being required, at least here if you want one you go get one.  

I absolutely agree that once cruising is opened to international travellers things get complicated.  However, we are talking about short cruises to the private islands in the Bahamas right now for US cruisers.

Seems likely that cruising will be limited until borders open and airlines schedule accordingly.  For some months Canada and most of Europe seem to be closed to Americans.

Let me clarify, some states at one time did not allow direct to consumer testing as it's called, all states may allow it now on a limited basis, I'm embarrassed to say I'm not certain. Some insurance companies may not pay for any testing without a doctor order - Medicare certainly doesn't, but Covid testing to go on a cruise should all be outside the realm of paid for by insurance.

 

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

I think you make some good points.  But at the same time, even with many of the more common sense precautions I would take at home, I would encounter more exposure when traveling to a cruise ship.  Riding in an airplane probably sits atop that list.  I also would be getting more exposure than I would do in my day to day life, even following precautions like mask wearing and social distancing (which I always do), as I would by necessity need to interact more with others at hotels, taxis/ubers, and more eating at restaurants (albeit outside) than I normally would at home.  Some of that could be mitigated by flying in the day of, but that has it's own risks unrelated to the virus.  There just is no good answer unfortunately.

Agree, but this is where I think everyone is going to have to assess their own personal risk tolerance and underlying risk of complications if they get the virus.

We have learned over the past few months that masking, especially if everyone within 6 feet of you is masked, is a powerful prevention for Covid. If you wash your hands often and properly, that's another layer of mitigation. I think that people can travel safely, but if you haven't ventured out of your home much at all, there is no doubt that flying to another state will increase your risk over what it is at home, and each of us will have a differing level of tolerance.

 

Pray that it isn't going to last much more than another year.

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After looking at this we plan to cancel our cruise. I am mostly concerned about being quarantined if a waiter, room steward, trivia partner, etc. tested positive during the cruise but am also choosing not to sail due to the mask requirement. For me personally it would be a depressing vacation to see everyone constantly in masks and, also, to not be able to expore ports on our own. However, I am sure others won't mind the restrictions and will just be glad to cruise. 

We agree with you. Cancelled this Dec on Reflection,Cunard cancelled our Oct next year cruise . We are sailing, hopefully , on Refection Feb 2022


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18 minutes ago, fizzy1 said:


We agree with you. Cancelled this Dec on Reflection,Cunard cancelled our Oct next year cruise . We are sailing, hopefully , on Refection Feb 2022


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We did Lift & Shift to Jan 2022
Hope all will be well by then 🛳🚢🛶🌈

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I too had read that MSC had lowered the price of their excursions.  But I could not locate that article again.  Was gonna post it on TA cruise forum.    

For cruise lines to enhance success ( more booking)  they have to lower drastically the cost of the tours.  Since they farm it out to local operators (they better vet them properly), they have to ask the tour operator to charge less too.  It's either have cheaper paying guest than no guest at all ( which is what is happening now).

 

I am waiting for MSC USA to post their protocol.  Read that Princess is posting their protocol next week??

 

I agree that the Healthy sail covers all lines even though it was sponsored by NCL and RC.  After all it doesn't make sense that  recommendation A is required by the CDC but only NCL and RC will follow it because its their Panel who recommended it.

 

I would like to see what the lines will present as their protocol.  NOT wait for what the CDC will require.  For now the Healthy Sail recommendation is some form of deflection.  For now.  I agree having people with phd, mdd, cnn, etc to their names add gravitas to common sense.  After all common sense is not common anymore

 

Nothing is perfect. But layering helps.  5 day test is useless as a preventive at the harbor I agree but that removes those who are positive from even attempting to go to the harbor ( talking about honest responsible people, not the me first generation) That would include all those who live with the + person.     

 

I read MSC has machines that can do 300 test in an hour (can't find the link)   If they can secure these machines why can't the other lines do it.  Then require a 2 step testing at the harbor.  Note that you cannot enter the cruise terminal without a negative test to begin with.  This is what I would like to happen.

 

I would gladly go with all these restrictions to get on a boat. Others feel these are onerous and would not.  Now those fifth columnist, please don't ruin it for us by showing up.

 

 

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Have had more time to look over the whole document.  One of my primary concerns is what happens if you get sick/test positive.  According to the document (and this is the gist of it, not the exact wording), the cruise ships are supposed to disembark you ASAP at the nearest port, which is supposed to agree to accept you and somehow (it is not described) get you home.  So let's say I catch the virus, and get really sick quickly.  I get dumped in a foreign port in a third world country which may not have good medical facilities, and am too sick to fly home (even if by some miracle there was some transportation pre-arranged, which I'm sorry, but I can't see always happening).   So there I am, perhaps deathly ill, put in this awful situation.  How does that make sense to anyone?!?!    And even if I am not deathly sick, what airlines will accept me onboard (and for that matter, SHOULD accept me onboard)???  I can't see them chartering flights for me!  Certainly not on their dime.  

 

Am I misreading this?  Thoughts?

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13 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Have had more time to look over the whole document.  One of my primary concerns is what happens if you get sick/test positive.  According to the document (and this is the gist of it, not the exact wording), the cruise ships are supposed to disembark you ASAP at the nearest port, which is supposed to agree to accept you and somehow (it is not described) get you home.  So let's say I catch the virus, and get really sick quickly.  I get dumped in a foreign port in a third world country which may not have good medical facilities, and am too sick to fly home (even if by some miracle there was some transportation pre-arranged, which I'm sorry, but I can't see always happening).   So there I am, perhaps deathly ill, put in this awful situation.  How does that make sense to anyone?!?!    And even if I am not deathly sick, what airlines will accept me onboard (and for that matter, SHOULD accept me onboard)???  I can't see them chartering flights for me!  Certainly not on their dime.  

 

Am I misreading this?  Thoughts?

The situation you describe is why  near term there will probably just be short cruises staying close to the US.  If one tests negative 5 days before a cruise and again at the cruise terminal it is unlikely that during a 5 to 7 night cruise someone would go from testing negative to deathly ill.  
 

I think it will months before we see long cruises with a lot of sea days, which means more of our bookings will be cancelled.

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36 minutes ago, jelayne said:

The situation you describe is why  near term there will probably just be short cruises staying close to the US.  If one tests negative 5 days before a cruise and again at the cruise terminal it is unlikely that during a 5 to 7 night cruise someone would go from testing negative to deathly ill.  
 

I think it will months before we see long cruises with a lot of sea days, which means more of our bookings will be cancelled.

I totally agree with this. The cruise line CEO's continually say that will be the case. 

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52 minutes ago, jelayne said:

The situation you describe is why  near term there will probably just be short cruises staying close to the US.  If one tests negative 5 days before a cruise and again at the cruise terminal it is unlikely that during a 5 to 7 night cruise someone would go from testing negative to deathly ill.  
 

I think it will months before we see long cruises with a lot of sea days, which means more of our bookings will be cancelled.

Agree completely, I can’t know for sure, but think of it this way - 

Don’t compare a cruise that you have booked to this document. The document describeS cruises that will be offered at some, hopefully relatively soon, point in time when cruises are allowed to resume, no one has booked these cruises yet.

As time passes and we get a vaccine or treatment, more and more of the modifications to the recommendations as described wilL start to happen. At some point there will be a flip, and old reservations will be honored as they stand, with only the standard, “we reserve the right to change ports and number of days based weather and sea conditions”. My guess is the transition period where everyone will need to be rebooked will last longer than any of us want, because even with a vaccine, it will,take months for herd immunity to develop, if at all.

Edited by cangelmd
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1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

Have had more time to look over the whole document.  One of my primary concerns is what happens if you get sick/test positive.  According to the document (and this is the gist of it, not the exact wording), the cruise ships are supposed to disembark you ASAP at the nearest port, which is supposed to agree to accept you and somehow (it is not described) get you home.  So let's say I catch the virus, and get really sick quickly.  I get dumped in a foreign port in a third world country which may not have good medical facilities, and am too sick to fly home (even if by some miracle there was some transportation pre-arranged, which I'm sorry, but I can't see always happening).   So there I am, perhaps deathly ill, put in this awful situation.  How does that make sense to anyone?!?!    And even if I am not deathly sick, what airlines will accept me onboard (and for that matter, SHOULD accept me onboard)???  I can't see them chartering flights for me!  Certainly not on their dime.  

 

Am I misreading this?  Thoughts?

 

I completely understand you & it is why I've been pretty much a hard### on those that are hellbent on masking up. Masks should be the least of one's worries. There are far more concerning issues than someone wearing a mask improperly or not at all. Many on these threads do not fully comprehend these things, one of which you have mentioned. Another is isolation. Some still believe that if they cruise in a suite that if they are quarantined, at least they have a nice cabin. They need to read the panel's recommendations on isolation.  

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7 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

Have had more time to look over the whole document.  One of my primary concerns is what happens if you get sick/test positive.  According to the document (and this is the gist of it, not the exact wording), the cruise ships are supposed to disembark you ASAP at the nearest port, which is supposed to agree to accept you and somehow (it is not described) get you home.  So let's say I catch the virus, and get really sick quickly.  I get dumped in a foreign port in a third world country which may not have good medical facilities, and am too sick to fly home (even if by some miracle there was some transportation pre-arranged, which I'm sorry, but I can't see always happening).   So there I am, perhaps deathly ill, put in this awful situation.  How does that make sense to anyone?!?!    And even if I am not deathly sick, what airlines will accept me onboard (and for that matter, SHOULD accept me onboard)???  I can't see them chartering flights for me!  Certainly not on their dime.  

 

Am I misreading this?  Thoughts?

Just my two cents worth.  We cannot expect the cruise line to create an ICU for this one disease.  We could as well extend the line of reasoning to - for example-  what will they do for some who suddenly developed severe asthma?  Can they put a breathing tube down a throat?  Do they have a ventilator?  We can then extend it to more diseases.  Doing so, the only safe ships to " cruise " in would be the USS Hope and Mercy.

 

What should be asked is, ( we all know those clinics are just that-clinics- and are run separately.  You have to pay for consultation),  is what do they have onboard ( or have upgraded on board) to tide you over until you can get to a land facility.   

 

And speaking of land facility- quarantine on a ship is a big no no.  Just look at the Ruby and Diamond Princess.  I believe that MSC will get you off the ship and onto a land facility to quarantine and be further treated.  Admittedly, the Grandiosa visited port cities that are quite or relatively advanced with more facilities.    Not that great with the Caribbean stops are slouch..  Yes they have facilities but can be quickly overwhelmed.

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6 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I completely understand you & it is why I've been pretty much a hard### on those that are hellbent on masking up. Masks should be the least of one's worries. There are far more concerning issues than someone wearing a mask improperly or not at all. Many on these threads do not fully comprehend these things, one of which you have mentioned. Another is isolation. Some still believe that if they cruise in a suite that if they are quarantined, at least they have a nice cabin. They need to read the panel's recommendations on isolation.  

I did. Those in Suites, and possibly other guests, might be able to stay in their cabins.

 

Recommendation 48: Cruise operators should designate certain cabins on the ship as isolation and quarantine spaces.


Cruise operators should dedicate a number of cabins to remain open in case individuals need to be isolated or quarantined. In some cases it may be appropriate for SARS-CoV-2 exposed guests or crew to remain in their own staterooms to quarantine. However, availability of some dedicated quarantine space is advisable so that individuals can adequately separate from their traveling companions or other crew in shared living quarters. Food and beverage should be delivered, and medical personnel should check on them by phone or in-person visits at least once daily.

Edited by C-Dragons
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8 hours ago, jelayne said:

The situation you describe is why  near term there will probably just be short cruises staying close to the US.  If one tests negative 5 days before a cruise and again at the cruise terminal it is unlikely that during a 5 to 7 night cruise someone would go from testing negative to deathly ill.  
 

I think it will months before we see long cruises with a lot of sea days, which means more of our bookings will be cancelled.

Unfortunately, while it is not real likely that someone can go from negative to deathly ill, it is certainly possible.  I personally know someone who went from healthy to dead in less than 10 days (granted, she was more elderly and in a nursing home, but there are a lot of pretty senior people on cruises I have been on with Celebrity).  

 

i believe the document recommends no cruises longer than 10 nights to begin with.  Now, that is not to say that the cruise lines will begin with those, but the recommendations do not limit to 3-5 day cruises.   So within a couple of months, if no crisis occurs, it is very possible for the cruise lines to begin longer cruises.  I guess we will need to wait and see.

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2 hours ago, bigwawao said:

Just my two cents worth.  We cannot expect the cruise line to create an ICU for this one disease.  We could as well extend the line of reasoning to - for example-  what will they do for some who suddenly developed severe asthma?  Can they put a breathing tube down a throat?  Do they have a ventilator?  We can then extend it to more diseases.  Doing so, the only safe ships to " cruise " in would be the USS Hope and Mercy.

 

What should be asked is, ( we all know those clinics are just that-clinics- and are run separately.  You have to pay for consultation),  is what do they have onboard ( or have upgraded on board) to tide you over until you can get to a land facility.   

 

And speaking of land facility- quarantine on a ship is a big no no.  Just look at the Ruby and Diamond Princess.  I believe that MSC will get you off the ship and onto a land facility to quarantine and be further treated.  Admittedly, the Grandiosa visited port cities that are quite or relatively advanced with more facilities.    Not that great with the Caribbean stops are slouch..  Yes they have facilities but can be quickly overwhelmed.

I think it is very possible, and reasonable, to expect cruise lines to seriously update their medical crisis facilities, including adding at least one ventilator.  We can say it would not be expected for this one disease.  At the same time, this one disease has shut down cruising worldwide for six months, and most cruising is still stopped.  Also, if  memory serves, that is what the CDC was requiring prior to a resumption of cruising - not sure what the ultimate requirements will be.  Also, sad to say, this may not be the only disease ultimately requiring this.  It could be 10 years before another pandemic, it could be 20 years, or it could be one or two years.  I'm sure that don't want to ever be shut down for this long again.    

 

I also think there has been a boatload of knowledge (pun intended) that has been developed since the original attempt to quarantine passengers.  With enhanced ventilation, enhanced procedures, and on and on, a quarantine now would be much different than the quarantine back in March.   

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:32 PM, Arizona Wildcat said:

Since they are talking about short cruises only to places like the private islands at first, seems shore excursions will be moot issue.  Many will find that great just to get on board.  Many others will say no.

 

A lot to be concerned with in the report, but we'll likely cruise, even with the precautions and restrictions,  when its shown to be safe.   hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

The thing that intrigues me is that thy stressed using company owned private islands.    Might we see a Celebrity ship at CoCo Cay ??    I'd gladly give up a Caribbean port for CoCo Cay.   Loved that place when we went.

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10 hours ago, bigwawao said:

I too had read that MSC had lowered the price of their excursions.  But I could not locate that article again.  Was gonna post it on TA cruise forum.    

For cruise lines to enhance success ( more booking)  they have to lower drastically the cost of the tours.  Since they farm it out to local operators (they better vet them properly), they have to ask the tour operator to charge less too.  It's either have cheaper paying guest than no guest at all ( which is what is happening now).

 

I am waiting for MSC USA to post their protocol.  Read that Princess is posting their protocol next week??

 

I agree that the Healthy sail covers all lines even though it was sponsored by NCL and RC.  After all it doesn't make sense that  recommendation A is required by the CDC but only NCL and RC will follow it because its their Panel who recommended it.

 

I would like to see what the lines will present as their protocol.  NOT wait for what the CDC will require.  For now the Healthy Sail recommendation is some form of deflection.  For now.  I agree having people with phd, mdd, cnn, etc to their names add gravitas to common sense.  After all common sense is not common anymore

 

Nothing is perfect. But layering helps.  5 day test is useless as a preventive at the harbor I agree but that removes those who are positive from even attempting to go to the harbor ( talking about honest responsible people, not the me first generation) That would include all those who live with the + person.     

 

I read MSC has machines that can do 300 test in an hour (can't find the link)   If they can secure these machines why can't the other lines do it.  Then require a 2 step testing at the harbor.  Note that you cannot enter the cruise terminal without a negative test to begin with.  This is what I would like to happen.

 

I would gladly go with all these restrictions to get on a boat. Others feel these are onerous and would not.  Now those fifth columnist, please don't ruin it for us by showing up.

 

 

CLIA accepted the panel's recommendations.  Seems that would include almost all cruise companies.

All I know is both flu shots and COVID testing are available locally for free on request.  No referral needed.  Results in 48 hours.  Schools and universities are using the rapid test.  They seem to be able to test many a day.

As others have said many will take a cruise to a private island.  Others will not be interested.  Let's see what happens after a couple months of that sort of cruising.  Hopefully then we can see more choices.  Am sure there are plenty of Floridians willing to cruise to anywhere.  5 days or so of no political phone calls!  Heaven.

Do understand the proposal is private islands ONLY at first.  That would be the only "port" call.  Wonder how many private locations there are?  Seems very limiting on the number of ships.

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Would a private island qualify as a foreign stop to satisfy the law that foreign flagged ships stop in a foreign port.?

 

Re the  "   update their medical crisis facilities, including adding at least one ventilator. "    Now you have to update the medical staff to know how to use and set a ventilator AND put breathing tubes down a guest's throat.  I think there is a limit to what this medical upgrade should be.  After all, it is a cruise ship and those who are already at death's door should make a reasonable decision to either not sail or accept the consequences given one's health.

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 8:39 PM, bigwawao said:

Would a private island qualify as a foreign stop to satisfy the law that foreign flagged ships stop in a foreign port.?

 

Re the  "   update their medical crisis facilities, including adding at least one ventilator. "    Now you have to update the medical staff to know how to use and set a ventilator AND put breathing tubes down a guest's throat.  I think there is a limit to what this medical upgrade should be.  After all, it is a cruise ship and those who are already at death's door should make a reasonable decision to either not sail or accept the consequences given one's health.

 

Regarding your first point, the privately owned islands are indeed considered a foreign port as they are technically still part of their original country, at least to my understanding.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, it is not those already at deaths door I am concerned about. Any of us, healthy or not, are at risk of being put at deaths door by Covid.  And if I recall the CDC was in fact talking about requiring ventilators onboard.   Will that be in the final agreement? No one yet knows, but it may well be.

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On 9/23/2020 at 9:39 PM, bigwawao said:

Would a private island qualify as a foreign stop to satisfy the law that foreign flagged ships stop in a foreign port

 

Royal has cruises every weekend to Cococay. It"s a sea day, stop at Cococay and back home.

 

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Sadly this document convinced us to cancel Nov 6 on Equinox.  We've moved to January 2022.  Not eligible for Lift and Shift since the new date did not fall within the one year/4 week window.  Still planning on Connie in late February 2021.    

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Who is going to pay for all this testing.  If you cruise several times a year and are required to test before each cruise, even if you don’t have symptoms ,will insurance pay for it? Here in nc you need symptoms to be tested at most places.  If you don’t have symptoms you must go to an independent medical facility.  The cost can be as high as 250 per test.  I have read posts that the testing is free.  If you live in Nc it is free for people without insurance,  but if you have insurance , you company is billed.

 

 

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