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Looking at a b2b, Anchorage to Vancouver, Vancouver to LA.  Is that a PVSA vIolation? Does it help if I change ships in Vancouver?   Thanks for your advice.

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11 minutes ago, LawDog61 said:

Looking at a b2b, Anchorage to Vancouver, Vancouver to LA.  Is that a PVSA vIolation? Does it help if I change ships in Vancouver?   Thanks for your advice.

It would be a PVSA violation if you did it on a single ship. If you were to change ships in Vancouver it would be legal.

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1 minute ago, njhorseman said:

It would be a PVSA violation if you did it on a single ship. If you were to change ships in Vancouver it would be legal.

 

I wonder if it makes a difference if the ship is 'zeroed out' in Vancouver? Same ship, but different cruises?

 

I'm thinking of the ways the QM2 combines New England/Canada sailing with Southampton transatlantics to produce 'grand voyages' - when QM2 arrives in Brooklyn, it is always 'zeroed out'.

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"Zeroed Out" doesn't matter. No US port to different US port on same ship without distant foreign port in between, is how I understand it.

 

 

Is the QM2 starting from UK? correct?

 

 

Edited by neverbeenhere
Non-US Flagged Ships
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10 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Wait. Do passengers have to concern themselves with the PVSA? Isn't that a matter for the cruise lines? 

 

If a cruise is advertised, people have a right to book whatever b2b or combination they want.

It is a matter for the cruise line and they won’t permit you to book B2B cruises that violate the PVSA (if they do, it’s by mistake).  You don’t have a right to book advertised cruises that will result in a violation of the PVSA simply because they’re on sale.  I guess that knowing about the PVSA may help you in planning your cruises and/or save you from future disappointment.

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1 hour ago, LawDog61 said:

Looking at a b2b, Anchorage to Vancouver, Vancouver to LA.  Is that a PVSA vIolation? Does it help if I change ships in Vancouver?   Thanks for your advice.

If this is on 2 different ships, then there is no PVSA violation.

 

 

If this is one ship, then it will be a violation. It is even possible that it can be booked. However, once it is more closely looked at, the cruiseline will cancel one of the legs for the passengers who booked both legs. 

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26 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Wait. Do passengers have to concern themselves with the PVSA? Isn't that a matter for the cruise lines? 

 

If a cruise is advertised, people have a right to book whatever b2b or combination they want.

As with most things in life, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Saying you didn't know the speed limit does not get you out of the ticket.

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1 hour ago, TheOldBear said:

 

I wonder if it makes a difference if the ship is 'zeroed out' in Vancouver? Same ship, but different cruises?

 

I'm thinking of the ways the QM2 combines New England/Canada sailing with Southampton transatlantics to produce 'grand voyages' - when QM2 arrives in Brooklyn, it is always 'zeroed out'.

But, what you are proposing starts with a Transatlantic, or ends with a Transatlantic, so it begins or ends in a foreign port, and PVSA has nothing to do with that combination of cruises.  If a cruise, or a combination of cruises, begins or ends in a foreign port, there is no applicability of the PVSA.

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32 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Wait. Do passengers have to concern themselves with the PVSA? Isn't that a matter for the cruise lines? 

 

If a cruise is advertised, people have a right to book whatever b2b or combination they want.

No, they don't.  CBP does not look at how the cruises are advertised, or booked.  They look at your port of origination, and your port of disembarkation (permanent disembarkation, meaning you take your luggage and settle the bill), and if they are two different US ports, then it is a violation of the PVSA.  Many cruises are legal when booked alone, but when two are combined they become illegal, and there are even some where if a third, legal, cruise is added to a combination of two that are illegal, it suddenly becomes legal again.  As noted, many times you are allowed to book cruises together that are in fact illegal under the PVSA, but when the cruise line's compliance department sees the booking, they will notify you that the booking is illegal.  And, while the fine is charged against the cruise line for the violation, if you manage to actually violate the Act, the ticket contract gives the cruise line the right to pass the fine on to you.

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43 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, they don't.  CBP does not look at how the cruises are advertised, or booked.  They look at your port of origination, and your port of disembarkation (permanent disembarkation, meaning you take your luggage and settle the bill), and if they are two different US ports, then it is a violation of the PVSA.  Many cruises are legal when booked alone, but when two are combined they become illegal, and there are even some where if a third, legal, cruise is added to a combination of two that are illegal, it suddenly becomes legal again.  As noted, many times you are allowed to book cruises together that are in fact illegal under the PVSA, but when the cruise line's compliance department sees the booking, they will notify you that the booking is illegal.  And, while the fine is charged against the cruise line for the violation, if you manage to actually violate the Act, the ticket contract gives the cruise line the right to pass the fine on to you.

Fascinating. So, if I go online and book cruise #1. Then, a few months later, go online and book #2, the cruise line has tracking software that is looking out for such connections between passenger/ships?

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1 minute ago, cruizergal70 said:

Fascinating. So, if I go online and book cruise #1. Then, a few months later, go online and book #2, the cruise line has tracking software that is looking out for such connections between passenger/ships?

Yes.  Provided the two cruises are on the same ship.  If you get off one ship and board another ship, even from the same line, in the same port the same day and continue on, it is then considered two different voyages, since two ships are involved.

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3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes.  Provided the two cruises are on the same ship.  If you get off one ship and board another ship, even from the same line, in the same port the same day and continue on, it is then considered two different voyages, since two ships are involved.

Does anyone have any personal stories of being denied a cruise on the same ship back to back? 

 

While I doubt I would ever do a b2b, I would be upset with the cruise line if my booking was denied. I wonder if cruise lines quietly pay the odd fee vs potentially losing a customer. 

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15 minutes ago, cruizergal70 said:

Does anyone have any personal stories of being denied a cruise on the same ship back to back? 

 

While I doubt I would ever do a b2b, I would be upset with the cruise line if my booking was denied. I wonder if cruise lines quietly pay the odd fee vs potentially losing a customer. 


Yes. DW and I were booked on a southbound Seward to Vancouver cruise several years ago. My wife tried to add a 1 day reposition cruise to Seattle afterwards (she didn’t know about this law).  The cruise line cited the law and she was denied. 
 

You should not be upset with the cruise line. If they knowingly and intentionally allow a PVSA violation in the manner you proposed, they could actually be held criminally liable. If you don’t like it, don’t blame the cruise line. Blame the law. 

Edited by Aquahound
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1 hour ago, cruizergal70 said:

Does anyone have any personal stories of being denied a cruise on the same ship back to back? 

 

While I doubt I would ever do a b2b, I would be upset with the cruise line if my booking was denied. I wonder if cruise lines quietly pay the odd fee vs potentially losing a customer. 

Not me, personally, but on another cruising forum I read, the first time they did their Alaska season with cruises starting in Seattle, the cruise line allowed people to book the repo (LA to Vancouver) B2B with the first Alaska Cruise (Vancouver to Seattle).  

 

I warned people on the forum, if they had this B2B booked, they'd better get in in writing from the cruise line that they'd be allowed to do it.  Many people reported that the cruise line said, basically, "no problem". 

 

Yeah, well about a month and a half out from the first cruise, everyone doing the B2Bs were notified they'd have to cancel one or the other cruise.

 

A cruise line will (typically) not book people on a cruise that will incur a fine to them.  And there could be other repercussions for allowing such a violation of the law.  There was a rumor that the cruise line involved was going to "just pay the fine" and not pass it on to the passengers, but that didn't happen.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shmoo here said:

Not me, personally, but on another cruising forum I read, the first time they did their Alaska season with cruises starting in Seattle, the cruise line allowed people to book the repo (LA to Vancouver) B2B with the first Alaska Cruise (Vancouver to Seattle).  

 

I warned people on the forum, if they had this B2B booked, they'd better get in in writing from the cruise line that they'd be allowed to do it.  Many people reported that the cruise line said, basically, "no problem". 

 

Yeah, well about a month and a half out from the first cruise, everyone doing the B2Bs were notified they'd have to cancel one or the other cruise.

 

A cruise line will (typically) not book people on a cruise that will incur a fine to them.  And there could be other repercussions for allowing such a violation of the law.  There was a rumor that the cruise line involved was going to "just pay the fine" and not pass it on to the passengers, but that didn't happen.

 

 

Yes...I also remember reading about this...and the poster was warned but eventually notified by the cruiseline that their 2nd leg was cancelled.

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9 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Does anyone have any personal stories of being denied a cruise on the same ship back to back? 

 

While I doubt I would ever do a b2b, I would be upset with the cruise line if my booking was denied. I wonder if cruise lines quietly pay the odd fee vs potentially losing a customer. 

I have read several such stories on CC. And it's not a fee, it's a fine and if the cruise lines intentionally violate the law there might be other ramifications. The fine for a PVSA is $300 so for a couple that would be $600 and I doubt that any customer good will is worth that.

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Yes, I booked LA - Vancouver, b2b with an Alaskan cruise ending in Seattle. Some time after I'd made the booking, my TA was notified by the cruise line that it was illegal. I resolved it by changing ships in Vancouver, same cruise line, same pier, just had to go through Canadian formalities then US pre-clearance, wasn't too much of a pain.

 

The PVSA was the reason that the LA cruise ended in Vancouver. The Alaskan cruise was the first one of the season and the cruise line was using Vancouver as a way to move the ship up from LA to Seattle for their season of 7 night Seattle round trip cruises since both LA - Vancouver and Vancouver - Seattle are legal, just not as a b2b.

Edited by jollyjones
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41 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I have read several such stories on CC. And it's not a fee, it's a fine and if the cruise lines intentionally violate the law there might be other ramifications. The fine for a PVSA is $300 so for a couple that would be $600 and I doubt that any customer good will is worth that.

Fines are now $731 per person, if I recall correctly.

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1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

I have read several such stories on CC. And it's not a fee, it's a fine and if the cruise lines intentionally violate the law there might be other ramifications. The fine for a PVSA is $300 so for a couple that would be $600 and I doubt that any customer good will is worth that.

 

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Fines are now $731 per person, if I recall correctly.

 

$798 per person as of the latest update can find, September 2019.

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1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 

 

$798 per person as of the latest update can find, September 2019.

The amount of the fine is rather irrelevant at the moment since there are no cruises to or from the USA.

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26 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The amount of the fine is rather irrelevant at the moment since there are no cruises to or from the USA.

Why not?  Just because there is no cruising at this time doesn’t change the fact that there is a fine for violation of the PVSA.  The OP is likely looking at B2B for the future.

Edited by d9704011
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53 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The amount of the fine is rather irrelevant at the moment since there are no cruises to or from the USA.

I'm not the one who first posted the amount of the fine, nor am I the one who then attempted to correct it, but still was incorrect. Why not complain to them that their posts were irrelevant? 

 

All I'm doing is providing the correct information after others provided misinformation. Do you have an issue with facts being posted on this forum?

 

And as the previous poster noted the OP is looking for a future B2B . That assumes there will be cruising at that time, which makes the information relevant for those potential cruises.

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19 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, they don't.  CBP does not look at how the cruises are advertised, or booked.  They look at your port of origination, and your port of disembarkation (permanent disembarkation, meaning you take your luggage and settle the bill), and if they are two different US ports, then it is a violation of the PVSA.  Many cruises are legal when booked alone, but when two are combined they become illegal, and there are even some where if a third, legal, cruise is added to a combination of two that are illegal, it suddenly becomes legal again.  As noted, many times you are allowed to book cruises together that are in fact illegal under the PVSA, but when the cruise line's compliance department sees the booking, they will notify you that the booking is illegal.  And, while the fine is charged against the cruise line for the violation, if you manage to actually violate the Act, the ticket contract gives the cruise line the right to pass the fine on to you.


I am usually on the Celebrity board and yearly there is a discussion of this.  A few dozen people usually depart in Victoria and get to Seattle by various means. If I remember correctly they leave their things on board.

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5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Fines are now $731 per person, if I recall correctly.

 

4 hours ago, njhorseman said:

 

 

$798 per person as of the latest update can find, September 2019.

Thank you for the info. I don't see any customer being worth that in a cruise line's eyes.

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