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10 hours ago, Billy Baltic said:


Agreed. It’s very complex but the people who claim we just need to shield the vulnerable disappear when this is discussed. 
Within my immediate work group all the people are low risk. All are under 50 years of age and in apparent good health. However, one has a pregnant wife. That makes her vulnerable. Another has a child with asthma. That makes the child vulnerable. Another has a wife who is on immunosuppressants due to severe psoriasis. That makes her vulnerable. 
So what do the people who subscribe to the GBD say is the solution for these people. Are they suggesting their whole families live in a bubble? 

 

Pretty much what these people are doing now. The governments expect people to live in a bubble now

 

Focused protection isn't about locking people away, it's about providing people with the tools to get on with life. For example the government should invest in free N95 for for everyone, N95 masks if they can not procure enough invest in making them, invest and supply simple rapid test kits at places like care homes we are doing it at airports, soldiers are trained in basic first aid use them to fill the gaps in the health service in non medical positions to free up medical staff and there are so many other ways of doing what is necessary.

 

At the moment we isolate the elderly and vulnerable, some people have not seen their relatives in person for over 6 months, others were told to shield with little thought to support, families have been torn apart and forbidden by government to see each other by stay at home orders and lockdowns. If the experts who support the countries present actions are to be believed more people will die because of the lack of medical care than of covid-19 yet offer no solutions.

 

At the moment we have the worst of all worlds we have all the bad things people accuse the GBD of wanting to do with governments investing in ways to slow down and decimate economies under the pretext of saving jobs with no end in sight until a vaccine comes along which always seems to be 3 months away.

 

Talking about the vaccine, the UK has one of if not the best vaccination programs in the world yet with a flu vaccine it is only 75% effective and we only manage to vaccinate 75% of the population which in reality gives us 56.25% coverage nowhere near enough for artificial herd immunity meaning we have around 17000 flu deaths a year.

 

Governments have agreed the covid-19 vaccine only has to be 50% effective meaning it is a 50/50 chance it will work, put this into the UK governments vaccination program and you get a 37.5% coverage, even if you make it compulsory your looking at a maximum coverage of 50%, nobody knows how many deaths we may have to live with year on year or for how long the vulnerable will have to isolate.

 

All vaccines cause side effects and in the case of the flu jab some very serious ones, we are already hearing about side effects from potential covid-19 vaccine with even the developers stating they have a limited understanding on what these vaccines will do to the wider world due to such limited testing and limited testing on vulnerable groups.

 

The GBD if set up correctly could offer a viable alternative with the risks fairly well known and the actions to mitigate understood.

 

But I think the governments have invested so much into the WHO recommendations that they cannot afford for it to fail so have gone out of their way to call some of the top experts in the world fringe scientists and rubbish the idea of the GBD to the public. No governments likes to be proven wrong otherwise they lose the trust of the people.

 

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/371/bmj.m4037.full.pdf

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/371/bmj.m4058.full.pdf

 

    

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10 minutes ago, Bloodgem said:

 

The problem with the biased BBC is that they have one interviewee like Maureen Eames and 3 against her view.

 

It's funny though that Maureen Eames view resonated better with the UK public than the others.

 

Here in Wales the government is dictating what is and is not an essential item followed by a statement about looking at future lockdowns in the new year

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-what-are-the-essential-items-you-can-still-buy-in-wales-12112959

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54681885

 

Cardiff airport owned by the Welsh government is open as are the shops there selling non essential items even when the people are in lockdown

 

"Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely"

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32 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

That's not correct

 

Screenshot_20201025-120212.png

 

A colleague from Cardiff airport informed me about shops being open last night and thought there would be a media backlash over what was considered essential. I notice the twitter announcement was from today midday not from 6pm Friday when lockdown started. I was 35 minutes behind the news lol.

 

I think the problem comes from not knowing what is essential and what is not.

 

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3 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

The problem with the biased BBC is that they have one interviewee like Maureen Eames and 3 against her view.

 

It's funny though that Maureen Eames view resonated better with the UK public than the others.

Not sure how you can claim the BBC is biased as they when back to interview Maureen, on her own, the day after the  vox pop was aired  

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12 minutes ago, Bloodgem said:

Not sure how you can claim the BBC is biased as they when back to interview Maureen, on her own, the day after the  vox pop was aired  

 

It has been noted by viewers, observers and even the head of the BBC that the BBC has lately had a definite bias in its reporting of social issues and it's choice in programming. 

 

The BBC asked Dr Sunetra Gupta not to mention the declaration on The Victoria Derbyshire Show even though this was partly why she was asked to appear.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-scientists-at-war-a4569551.html

 

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4 hours ago, nomad098 said:

The BBC asked Dr Sunetra Gupta not to mention the declaration on The Victoria Derbyshire Show even though this was partly why she was asked to appear.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-scientists-at-war-a4569551.html

We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting.

 

I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed  "Freddie Starr ate my hamster"

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43 minutes ago, Bloodgem said:

We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting.

 

I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed  "Freddie Starr ate my hamster"

 

LOL I remember that one as well

 

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3 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting.

 

I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed  "Freddie Starr ate my hamster"

 

Wait - are you saying he didn't?

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3 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

We all know that newspapers always tells the truth and never miss quote people to make the article more interesting.

 

I still remember the Sun's front page which claimed  "Freddie Starr ate my hamster"

 

Is the Sum really a newspaper?

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On 10/22/2020 at 7:38 PM, S.A.M.J.R. said:

I think you need to ask, "what qualifies as a pre-existing condition"?  Just for example, if you're 10 pounds overweight, does that qualify you?  15? 20?  If you have diabetes (controlled)?  A weak heart?  

 

Is there any stat that shows how many people have pre-existing conditions?  10%?  20%?  50%?  

 

You have written, "I think you need to ask"

 

Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention

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1 hour ago, compman9 said:

 

You have written, "I think you need to ask"

 

Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention

Simple answer,  this is no longer about disease,  it's about politicians maintaining and increasing control.

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6 hours ago, compman9 said:

 

You have written, "I think you need to ask"

 

Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention

Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in).  I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share.  

 

BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US.  Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid?  (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k).

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10 hours ago, compman9 said:

 

You have written, "I think you need to ask"

 

Well, actually no. It is politicians that are killing livelihoods that need to ask, justify and explain why a virus is given such power and prominence in all decision making when any number of diseases, illnesses and accidents cause far more annual deaths but get nowhere near the attention

 

Hogwash. No communicable disease kills anywhere near as many Americans in 9 months as COVID-19 has. And that is with current mitigation attempts. Can you imagine how many more Americans would be dead if there had not been any closures?

 

Have you not noticed all the programs and laws designed to eliminate tobacco smoking? 

Edited by broberts
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4 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in).  I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share.  

 

BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US.  Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid?  (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k).

 

Interesting article that shows that the present figure may not be accurate either way

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/

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18 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

Interesting article that shows that the present figure may not be accurate either way

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/

So first, the last time the article was updated was May.  Second, just saying the certificates could be "wrong" says what?  There are more Covid deaths than counted?  Less?  And couldn't that also mean the death certificates for NON covid related deaths (going back years) could be wrong?  

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5 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

Well, according to the CDC (source), only Heart Disease and Cancer kill more people in a year (in the US) than Covid has (and we're only ~8 months in).  I don't believe Heart Disease and Cancer are communicable. So if you've got facts showing other diseases, illnesses, and accidents cause far more annual deaths, please feel free to share.  

 

BTW, Covid is currently listed as causing 231k deaths in the US.  Even allowing for some inflation, do you really think 60k deaths have been incorrectly associated with Covid?  (According to CDC, accidents would be the next leading cause of death at ~170k).

 

We're not talking about 8 months ago. We are talking about now.

 

Last week, Covid was the 19th biggest killer in England and the 24th biggest killer in Wales

 

 

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1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Hogwash. No communicable disease kills anywhere near as many Americans in 9 months as COVID-19 has. And that is with current mitigation attempts. Can you imagine how many more Americans would be dead if there had not been any closures?

 

Have you not noticed all the programs and laws designed to eliminate tobacco smoking? 

 

How is what I rote hogwash? 

 

You replied to a completely different post

 

I said it was up to politicians to explain decisions - You, and I do not live in China or Russia. We should always expect our politicians to explain themselves at all times

 

Also, as I wrote to another poster - We are talking about now, not historic figures - What you have written is like saying, Spanish Flu was a bit rough, we should probably stay in doors forever

 

 

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5 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

So first, the last time the article was updated was May.  Second, just saying the certificates could be "wrong" says what?  There are more Covid deaths than counted?  Less?  And couldn't that also mean the death certificates for NON covid related deaths (going back years) could be wrong?  

 

The article points out there was a problem before covid-19 and covid-19 would have exacerbated the issues.

 

There is no way of knowing according to Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics it all relies on accurate data coming in and before covid-19 this was a issue. 

 

It all comes down to if the problems that existed before covid-19 were resolved when covid-19 started I suspect not. 

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14 minutes ago, compman9 said:

 

We're not talking about 8 months ago. We are talking about now.

 

Last week, Covid was the 19th biggest killer in England and the 24th biggest killer in Wales

 

 

So you only want to look at a certain time?  lol  OK.  All of those who died before last week don't matter?  All of those who died after last week don't matter?  How about we look at how many people died from Covid in 2019.  That works, doesn't it? 

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2 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

The article points out there was a problem before covid-19 and covid-19 would have exacerbated the issues.

 

There is no way of knowing according to Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics it all relies on accurate data coming in and before covid-19 this was a issue. 

 

It all comes down to if the problems that existed before covid-19 were resolved when covid-19 started I suspect not. 

I think it says covid COULD exacerbate the issue.  But if you want to assume 1/3 of death certificates are wrong, then I don't know that you can compare covid to anything. 

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11 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

So you only want to look at a certain time?  lol  OK.  All of those who died before last week don't matter?  All of those who died after last week don't matter?  How about we look at how many people died from Covid in 2019.  That works, doesn't it? 

 

Don't be ridiculous, I said nothing of the sort, and you know it

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6 hours ago, compman9 said:

 

Don't be ridiculous, I said nothing of the sort, and you know it

You said you only want to look at a certain week (or is it a day?) and how Covid deaths compare to other deaths.

 

Since you want to selectively look at time ranges, let's look at all of 2019.  No one died with Covid, right?  There, it's over. 

 

ETA:  Do you want to provide a source for your data or should we take your word for it?

Edited by S.A.M.J.R.
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On 10/23/2020 at 12:10 PM, yogimax said:

I see you are from Virginia.

 

Do you think 170,000 cases and 3524 deaths are as "overrated" as the need to wear masks.

 

Ah, never mind, if you think wearing a mask is "silly and "overrated," you will not believe any of the horrid facts of COVID.

I see you're from NEW YAWK.......wearing masks (and thinking it prevents coronavirus) is foolish.

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