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2 hours ago, Dinglebert said:

Evidence for that statement please. 

You will never get it because they were never tested for Covid. Heads of hospitals in 100s of documented emails told doctors to declare deaths as Covid because there was higher insurance payouts. They didn't even have to test for it to declare in the US and that is a fact. So if someone had pancreatic cancer for 7 years, a brain aneurism, mesothelioma, smoked for 60 years, and died after late March, they can be declared a Covid death with no test or proof Covid was the cause. Just don't blindly listen to the media. They have a narrative and financial reasons along with hospitals and doctors. Follow the money for the truth. 

 

As for evidence, show me the evidence there are 215,000 deaths. Don't give me some number that is on a website or government site. Take that 215,000 number, do a 100% analysis of the people, and determine the TRUE cause of death.

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51 minutes ago, bigrednole said:

You will never get it because they were never tested for Covid. Heads of hospitals in 100s of documented emails told doctors to declare deaths as Covid because there was higher insurance payouts. They didn't even have to test for it to declare in the US and that is a fact. So if someone had pancreatic cancer for 7 years, a brain aneurism, mesothelioma, smoked for 60 years, and died after late March, they can be declared a Covid death with no test or proof Covid was the cause. Just don't blindly listen to the media. They have a narrative and financial reasons along with hospitals and doctors. Follow the money for the truth. 

 

As for evidence, show me the evidence there are 215,000 deaths. Don't give me some number that is on a website or government site. Take that 215,000 number, do a 100% analysis of the people, and determine the TRUE cause of death.

How true. Excellent post. Totally agree.

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I understand the fixation on death rates. We have data to back up what far too many families have experienced.  However, the lingering effects that have been seen by many patients is also troublesome.  They are dealing with cognitive, lung, and hearing issues plus debilitating fatigue. These individuals will not be able to contribute to our society much less be able to enjoy a cruise. 
 

Paula

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I think  it makes sense for the cruise lines to be as cautious as possible.  We're only talking about "vacation" after all.  It's not like life or death that anyone of us goes on a cruise.  I do worry about people that work in the industry and, especially, on the ships. They do depend on cruises for their livelihood.  But, if the worst thing was I had to eat at the MDR for dinner that wouldn't be a no-go thing for me.  I've never had problems finding food from multiple venues on any cruise I've been on.

 

All that said, I can't wait to go again.  Even though I wouldn't die from not getting to go, I really miss it a lot.

 

Tom

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38 minutes ago, RonPaula said:

I understand the fixation on death rates. We have data to back up what far too many families have experienced.  However, the lingering effects that have been seen by many patients is also troublesome.  They are dealing with cognitive, lung, and hearing issues plus debilitating fatigue. These individuals will not be able to contribute to our society much less be able to enjoy a cruise. 
 

Paula

 

Haven't heard team apocalypse bring this up lately.  Wonder how many people are experiencing this?  Doesn't sound like many per the dr. in my golf group.   

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1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

You will never get it because they were never tested for Covid. Heads of hospitals in 100s of documented emails told doctors to declare deaths as Covid because there was higher insurance payouts. They didn't even have to test for it to declare in the US and that is a fact. So if someone had pancreatic cancer for 7 years, a brain aneurism, mesothelioma, smoked for 60 years, and died after late March, they can be declared a Covid death with no test or proof Covid was the cause. Just don't blindly listen to the media. They have a narrative and financial reasons along with hospitals and doctors. Follow the money for the truth. 

 

As for evidence, show me the evidence there are 215,000 deaths. Don't give me some number that is on a website or government site. Take that 215,000 number, do a 100% analysis of the people, and determine the TRUE cause of death.

 

I agree that there is inconsistency in "Covid related deaths".  In fact I have not seen anyone claim the numbers are accurate.  The problem is that it is as likely the numbers are low as high,  because we don't know. 

 

As you point out, all people who die while having Covid are counted.  Most have an underlying condition, but I'm not sure it's feasible to separate what percentage of their illness is attributed to what condition.  Technically speaking, I'm not sure anyone dies of Covid.  They die of complications related to Covid.  The only way you could be assured is to determine if the person would have died at the same time from their underlying condition had they not got Covid.  There is no method for doing that. 

 

We are also ignoring that there are likely people who pass away never having been tested, and possibly not identified as Covid related. People who get sick and never seek medical attention, who later pass in private in their homes. As they were not tested and confirmed as infected, they were not credited. 

 

Finally, as far as I have ever seen, the insurance bump you refer to is for treating someone with Covid.  It is based on an additional 20% payout from Medicare and Medicaid for treatments associated with Covid 19.  I am unaware of any additional benefit related to death count.  Basically, even if your belief were valid, it doesn't require manipulating the death toll, just the treatment numbers.  If someone tested positive for Covid and was killed in an auto accident on the way home from the hospital (after treatment), the hospital still gets the money.  If you are concerned about inflated numbers, it would be in the Positive Test results not the death toll (as far as I have seen).

 

I'm not sure that what you are thinking of as "True Cause of Death" is knowable in any circumstance.  If you think the positive test numbers are inflated, I suppose there might be a way to determine that.  

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9 minutes ago, tserface said:

I think  it makes sense for the cruise lines to be as cautious as possible.  We're only talking about "vacation" after all.  It's not like life or death that anyone of us goes on a cruise.  I do worry about people that work in the industry and, especially, on the ships. They do depend on cruises for their livelihood.  But, if the worst thing was I had to eat at the MDR for dinner that wouldn't be a no-go thing for me.  I've never had problems finding food from multiple venues on any cruise I've been on.

 

All that said, I can't wait to go again.  Even though I wouldn't die from not getting to go, I really miss it a lot.

 

Tom

 

Tom, 

This is how I look at it as well.  I miss it and am anxious about what it will be like, but if that's the biggest impact on my life, I am pretty blessed.  

 

When so many people have lost loved ones, homes, jobs, savings, etc.  How good is my life that I can be worried about buffet or no buffet.  

 

Looking forward to getting back on deck. 

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48 minutes ago, Domino D said:

 

When so many people have lost loved ones, homes, jobs, savings, etc.  How good is my life that I can be worried about buffet or no buffet.  

 

Looking forward to getting back on deck. 

Here is how I look at it. Cruising is a very unnecessary activity that we spend disposable income on. So it is perfectly valid and acceptable to be concerned about whether or not the things about it that make it enjoyable for you, and are important to you, will be available when the ships return. We all cruise for different reasons and look forward to different aspects of a cruise. For some it is their balcony, others the flowrider, some the shows, some the ports, and some the dining venues. What is important to you may mean nothing to me but is doesn't make your needs any less valid. And those desires do not need to be put into the context of the "real" world.

 

We are all blessed to be able to cruise as we do. The fact that we do it does not mean any of us are less attuned or less compassionate to the tragedies of the world either pre, post, or during the pandemic.

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9 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Here is how I look at it. Cruising is a very unnecessary activity that we spend disposable income on. So it is perfectly valid and acceptable to be concerned about whether or not the things about it that make it enjoyable for you, and are important to you, will be available when the ships return. We all cruise for different reasons and look forward to different aspects of a cruise. For some it is their balcony, others the flowrider, some the shows, some the ports, and some the dining venues. What is important to you may mean nothing to me but is doesn't make your needs any less valid. And those desires do not need to be put into the context of the "real" world.

 

We are all blessed to be able to cruise as we do. The fact that we do it does not mean any of us are less attuned or less compassionate to the tragedies of the world either pre, post, or during the pandemic.

 

I agree with you OB.  My apologies to anyone who took my comments as generic to the situation.  It is more akin to survivors guilt.  What I do for a living actually thrives during economic crisis.  The worst the crisis the more money I make, it leaves me with like an undertaker feeling some times.  I don't root for crisis, but it's always good for business.  Just a weird dynamic that I get caught in. 

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1 hour ago, Domino D said:

Finally, as far as I have ever seen, the insurance bump you refer to is for treating someone with Covid.  It is based on an additional 20% payout from Medicare and Medicaid for treatments associated with Covid 19.  I am unaware of any additional benefit related to death count. 

 

The whole "hospitals are padding the numbers to make money on Covid deaths" story started here.  Aside: Snopes is my friend.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

 

Basically, it cost more money to treat a Covid patient so Medicare pays out more.  If hospitals were really making money by faking covid cases, NYC hospitals would be paving the parking lots in gold right about now.  Plus, why wouldn't they still be recording the 700+ cases a day like they did back in March, instead of today's single digits.

 

As conspiracy theories go, this one is about as strong as a house of cards in a hurricane.

 

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1 hour ago, cruisequeen4ever said:

I fear my DH May have the same tipping point as you. I’m not thrilled either but will cruise because it’s my favorite way of traveling.

 

DW likes to create fresh salads. I always thought chefs use way way way too much salt in MDR.

 

Also, we go to all the shows and rarely use MDR because it takes too long to eat and run.

 

I can understand cost cutting.  I usually chat with HDs and part of the food budget is waste.

Heard between 15-20%.... a lot of that is not even 'plated'.... just dumped at closings.

 

 

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13 hours ago, crazyank said:

Please quote your source for this info.  And while you're at it you might want to look at the latest statement from the World Health Organization.

 

Many news sources have fact checked this information

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trumps-covid-19-misinformation-since-testing-positive/

 

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/verify-covid-killed-more-8-months-than-flu-5-years-99-flu-shots/65-1bf47f0f-b134-4ff0-a71a-f41d0476237d

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/health/flu-covid-19-deaths-comparison-trnd/index.html

 

18 hours ago, TheMastodon said:


Avg age of death ?

 

 

 

To me a death is a death and age doesn't matter but I'm sure you could research if you wanted this information.

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4 hours ago, RonPaula said:

I understand the fixation on death rates. We have data to back up what far too many families have experienced.  However, the lingering effects that have been seen by many patients is also troublesome.  They are dealing with cognitive, lung, and hearing issues plus debilitating fatigue. These individuals will not be able to contribute to our society much less be able to enjoy a cruise. 
 

Paula

I saw a lot of hoverounds on cruises before this. I was also on a cruise that was called a floating nursing home.

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Really?  Dr Fauci says no more handshakes after this.


Some habits in our culture might change permanently as a result of the virus. Or they might not. Whether the habit returns after Covid time will tell. Fauci said he was half serious and that not handshaking was a suggestion.


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On 10/11/2020 at 2:04 PM, Mapleleafforever said:

Don't worry, precautions won't be around forever, just wait it out like us. 

If they start having employees dish out the food I would love it if that precaution would stay around for ever. 

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9 hours ago, Junkhouse said:

Really?  Dr Fauci says no more handshakes after this.

 

8 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

Some habits in our culture might change permanently as a result of the virus. Or they might not. Whether the habit returns after Covid time will tell. Fauci said he was half serious and that not handshaking was a suggestion.

Where do you get your information?  Your basement?

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fauci-perfect-world-americans-stop-shaking-hands/story?id=70062797

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1 hour ago, Charles4515 said:

 


You either didn’t read the link you posted or your handle is appropriate......Have a nice delusion. emoji2.png


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"We've got to break that custom," he argued.

 

He meant it.  He only backtracked a little when he was called out on it.

 

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19 hours ago, bigrednole said:

You will never get it because they were never tested for Covid.

 

Then why did you make your statement given you have no proof for it?   You can't provide the evidence.  You statement is as valid as for me to say there are far more covid deaths which have not been found to be covid.  You can't prove I'm wrong either.  You are talking about only the USA, I am going on world figures.  The virus doesn't recognise borders or different health care systems.

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2 hours ago, Junkhouse said:

"We've got to break that custom," he argued.

 

He meant it.  He only backtracked a little when he was called out on it.

 

What other things would he backtrack on if people called him out?

 

I have no udea how people manage to live into their 70's, 80's, and 90's shaking hands with people all their lives.

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16 hours ago, PhoenixCruiser said:


Not all deaths are equal.  Sorry

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2 hours ago, Dinglebert said:

Then why did you make your statement given you have no proof for it?   You can't provide the evidence.  You statement is as valid as for me to say there are far more covid deaths which have not been found to be covid.  You can't prove I'm wrong either.  You are talking about only the USA, I am going on world figures.  The virus doesn't recognise borders or different health care systems.

No one can prove the number of deaths to Covid either. I am willing to bet that more than 50% of those deaths are not caused by Covid. When numbers are manipulated to meet a narrative, there is usually money behind it. The facts are that the numbers are inflated. No one has ANY factual data. You can extrapolate the facts to get a better understanding of what is happening. Anyone with any level of an 8th grade education can figure that out.

 

In Hospice care for fighting pancreatic cancer for 7 years, brain aneurism, 95% blockage of the aorta, mesothelioma, lung cancer, Leukemia. Never tested once for covid, but ruled a Covid death. Can you comprehend the idea of that being the case because the people taking care of the individual have compensation gains by listing the death as Covid. 

 

And yes, I can prove you instantly wrong with numbers. The minute that any one case is corrupted with data, none of the data can be trusted. To point out that fact, look at the President of the massive hospital chain that sent the email informing doctors to declare the death as Covid. It even stated that the is no requirement to test for Covid. This allows the hospital to bill insurance a different set of fees for a pandemic. Right there proves that the data is corrupt.

 

 

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