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Carnival Corp ships will need court approval 60 days before restarting cruises, judge says


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Just how bad are the environmental implications of cruising?  I mean I realize they are going to have some detrimental impact but I've always weighed that against what the alternatives would be, at least for my own situation specifically in terms of land based travel and all the gas that a plane carrying about a mere 100 passengers can guzzle and all of the other considerations.  I've recently already decided that I'm willing to cruise out of SF (since I can walk/public transpo to and from there) even though I hate the extra sea days.  But if cruising is really as bad as all that, and someone can articulate it to me, I will have to seriously reflect and curtail the amount of cruising I'm willing to do.

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22 minutes ago, CarelessAndConfused said:

Just how bad are the environmental implications of cruising?  I mean I realize they are going to have some detrimental impact but I've always weighed that against what the alternatives would be, at least for my own situation specifically in terms of land based travel and all the gas that a plane carrying about a mere 100 passengers can guzzle and all of the other considerations.  I've recently already decided that I'm willing to cruise out of SF (since I can walk/public transpo to and from there) even though I hate the extra sea days.  But if cruising is really as bad as all that, and someone can articulate it to me, I will have to seriously reflect and curtail the amount of cruising I'm willing to do.

One of the main issues with ships is the grade of diesel that they burn and the particulates as well as the amount of nitrogen oxides in the emissions.   According to one report I saw a cruise ship emits about 3-4 times the CO2 per passenger mile than does a jet.  Newer larger ships, are more efficient in that category than the older smaller ships, but it would really that the LNG ships to get that down. Of course the comparison is not a direct one because it does not account for the dining and hotel functions.  A true comparison would be to add 1 nights lodging to the aircraft comparison or subtract the same amount from the cruise ship.  I would suspect that the ratio would be a little better but still against the cruise ship.

Edited by nocl
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3 hours ago, pcur said:

As of this morning, Princess has 13 itineraries scheduled to cruise from San Pedro, San Francisco, and Ft Lauderdale with 12/19/20 -12/26/20 sail dates .

 

Wishful thinking.

 

DON

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On 10/17/2020 at 4:56 AM, skynight said:

Cruise tracker shows 3 CCL ships near the Florida coast, possibly in U.S. waters. There are 10 more CCL ships nearby in Bahamas' waters. The other corporate brands are in Europe and Asia with a few in the Caribbean/Panama area. 

 

The Grand Princess in the Pacific cruising back and forth between Costa Rica and Panama along with several other CCL branded ships.

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20 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

Wishful thinking.

 

DON

I'm not wishing any cruise on any person in December of this year.  I think Princess is crazy to sail ships during a pandemic,  sandwiched between flu season and no vaccine.

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2 minutes ago, rcp6146 said:

I just paid my final payment on my Crown Princess cruise out of Ft Lauderdale on Dec 19th . . . . Its Time To Cruise!! 

that is one serious leap of faith - GOOD LUCK 🥃 🦄

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35 minutes ago, rcp6146 said:

I just paid my final payment on my Crown Princess cruise out of Ft Lauderdale on Dec 19th . . . . Its Time To Cruise!! 

Good luck. I hope it works out plus you post about the experience, especially how similar or different it was from the cruise experience pre-Covid.

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I really do not think that CCL forgot about that judge and the requirements that she would want.

 

I am hoping that they are somewhat prepared for these requirements if not, then heads should roll if they thought

this would be buried.

 

While we are all on the latest news from Florida's judge, as I said, I am sure these issues have not been

forgotten. Let's all hope that they abide by the ruling and take care of it correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, greenie082756 said:

I really do not think that CCL forgot about that judge and the requirements that she would want.

 

 

 

Today is 10/20/2020. 60 days from now is 12/19/2020. Princess has ships scheduled to start before 12/19/2020.

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8 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Today is 10/20/2020. 60 days from now is 12/19/2020. Princess has ships scheduled to start before 12/19/2020.

I wonder, do you think CCL plans to appeal to a higher judicial authority?

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22 hours ago, rcp6146 said:

I just paid my final payment on my Crown Princess cruise out of Ft Lauderdale on Dec 19th . . . . Its Time To Cruise!! 

 

I am hoping to sail December 20, 2020 on the Panama Cruise but doubt it will sail. My daughter and I both had C19 so we are not worried about that aspect. 

 

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20 minutes ago, LawDog61 said:

Unless, the term of probation has been extended, the 5 years would be up April 2022.  Might they just wait it out (in view of the never ending Corvid pause)?

As the violations are violations of MARPOL, an international convention, to which the US has Port State Control jurisdiction, even if the violations did not occur within US waters, they are prosecutable in the US.  So, even Carnival Corp ships that do not enter US waters, would still be required to submit to the auditor's boarding and review, and his report to the judge would lead to further fines, and or continued bans on the ships entering US waters.

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3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As the violations are violations of MARPOL, an international convention, to which the US has Port State Control jurisdiction, even if the violations did not occur within US waters, they are prosecutable in the US.  So, even Carnival Corp ships that do not enter US waters, would still be required to submit to the auditor's boarding and review, and his report to the judge would lead to further fines, and or continued bans on the ships entering US waters.

so how can 'the auditor' board the ships when they are all over the world 

 

and when does the 60 days start ?  

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6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As the violations are violations of MARPOL, an international convention, to which the US has Port State Control jurisdiction, even if the violations did not occur within US waters, they are prosecutable in the US.  So, even Carnival Corp ships that do not enter US waters, would still be required to submit to the auditor's boarding and review, and his report to the judge would lead to further fines, and or continued bans on the ships entering US waters.

 

Seems to me the best course of action would just be to conform to the terms of probation and conform to the law. It seems like the only way to clear things up.

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3 minutes ago, voljeep said:

so how can 'the auditor' board the ships when they are all over the world 

 

and when does the 60 days start ?  

Well, due to covid, that may be difficult, though if the ships were to start carrying passengers, those passengers have to get to the ships somehow, so travel restrictions would have to be fairly open.   The auditor has already boarded the ships all over the world, during the past years of probation.  Refusal to allow the auditor to board is a violation of parole.

 

The 60 days starts when Carnival submits certification that all ships will meet all environmental regulations.  The 60 days gives the judge the time to submit the certifications to the third party auditors for either their comments relating to whether they feel the corporation will actually be meeting regulations, or their opinions based on previous boardings and inspections.  The judge will then base a decision on those auditors' reports as to whether to allow the ships to sail, or not, 60 days after the certifications were submitted.

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6 minutes ago, Thrak said:

 

Seems to me the best course of action would just be to conform to the terms of probation and conform to the law. It seems like the only way to clear things up.

This isn't going to go away, any more than covid is.  Until the Carnival corporate leadership has a collective "come to Jesus" moment and embraces both the environmental responsibility that goes with shipowning, and the "learning culture" of the ISM, this continual legal entanglement will continue.

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3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

The 60 days starts when Carnival submits certification that all ships will meet all environmental regulations.

is there any reason that CCL wouldn't submit that 'certification' today as to get the 60 day period started ?

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On 10/18/2020 at 3:36 AM, rabin1 said:

Hi,

I live in South Florida. Micky Arison the man that owns Carnival is not a nice person. He pretends to be but isn;t. He is always about the money. 

 

 


 

 

 

I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with Mr Arison at Carnival’s AGM when it was once held in Southampton.

He was engaging and sincere. I remember asking him about the naming ceremony planned for Emerald Princess off Santorini. This was near the time a cruise ship sank in Santorini’s Caldera with a few lives lost. He was genuinely concerned the ceremony could not be held there.

He will probably be the richest man I shall ever meet but he came across as a down to earth guy.

Just MHO of course.

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1 hour ago, voljeep said:

is there any reason that CCL wouldn't submit that 'certification' today as to get the 60 day period started ?

Probably because they can't certify that all ships will meet all regulations.  Apparently, Carnival submitted a "work priority report" to the judge a month or two back, which listed the work still to be done to be fully compliant (unbelievable that this is still not fully up and running, two years after the latest court date), and when the judge's current ruling came out, Mr. Donald stated that "it was understood by us that not everything will be done right away", which means they've still been kicking the can down the road.

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7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

What would be the basis of the appeal?

I'm not qualified to suggest a basis for appeal but I have seen attorneys get very creative over my years on this planet. I just was wondering if there was an avenue CCL could use to appeal, not if it would be justified or not.

 

 

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:16 PM, jhannah said:

This is over-the-top in my opinion. Apparently she is happy to further damage the Florida and U.S. economy. Couldn't she phase her order in over time? So many people in the travel and cruise industry are badly hurting already. Judge, please don't make it worse!

 

On 10/16/2020 at 9:07 PM, foodsvcmgr said:

Another witch hunt directed at the cruise industry - the whipping boy for all the ills of the world sadly.

 

On 10/16/2020 at 11:13 PM, Thrak said:

I understand the environmental issues and why many folks are upset about those issues. However, I'm sick of judges who think the word "judge" is the same as the word "god". It amazes me how some judge in Florida or some judge in California can decide what is "right and correct" for the whole dang country.

 

I agree that all cruise lines should be operating with proper respect for the environment, or pay the price for non-compliance and be expected to change and improve and not just continue to pay "pollution fines".  See the below quotes. 

 

However, with respect to the above quotes, cannot help but thinking some politics comes into play as it has in so many areas of late.  Said judge is a Democrat and Micky Arison has been publicly supportive of Trump and current Administration.  No way to know for sure, and CCL has been its own worst enemy, but they aren't the only guilty ones out there.

 

On 10/17/2020 at 5:36 AM, chengkp75 said:

While I agree with much that you have said, and have nothing but contempt for Carnival's corporate environmental culture in the past, let me make a comment about this "continue to pollute".  The initial cause of the case, the discharge of gray water by a Princess ship that had made its way into the bilges, has never been shown by any agency to actually have caused any pollution, since the discharge of gray water is not illegal, and there was no way (since the violation was for working around the oil content meter on the oil/water separator) to know if any oil was actually discharged.  Also, most of the violations noted by the auditors during the initial probation also did not involve actual pollution, but record keeping violations.  While these violations are still serious, and Carnival should be held to the same standards as every other ship on the oceans, I for one cannot condemn them as "major polluters".

 

On 10/17/2020 at 5:38 AM, chengkp75 said:

Well, the "whole dang country" passed the laws that Carnival decided to flout, repeatedly.  And, since she is a federal judge, she has the right to uphold those laws passed by the "whole dang country" (as well as most of the world).  You could just as easily ask why, "some bureaucrat in Washington can decide what is right for the whole dang country".  Who brought the case to the DOJ for prosecution in the first place?  USCG.  Gonna question their right to decide what's right for the country?

 

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43 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

 

 

 

I agree that all cruise lines should be operating with proper respect for the environment, or pay the price for non-compliance and be expected to change and improve and not just continue to pay "pollution fines".  See the below quotes. 

 

However, with respect to the above quotes, cannot help but thinking some politics comes into play as it has in so many areas of late.  Said judge is a Democrat and Micky Arison has been publicly supportive of Trump and current Administration.  No way to know for sure, and CCL has been its own worst enemy, but they aren't the only guilty ones out there.

 

 

 

It is amazing that people try to twist everything into it must be politics. it seems to be the new way to attack anything or anyone that someone disagrees with by discrediting that there just might be a valid reason for something and instead just say that it must be politics.

 

I doubt very much that politics enters into this. Reports indicate that the Judge has gotten increasingly frustrated with CCL and their lack of compliance with the terms of the probation. This was reported in the news stories about the last hearing. One where she indicated that failure to comply could result in CCL ships being banned from US. There is nothing unusual in this order. It merely requires CCL to show that they are in compliance with the terms of their probation before starting service in the US.

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