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Carnival needs Judge approval to Sail


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1 hour ago, Radiioman46 said:

I hope not to start a controversy, but do we know what all the allegations are against Carnival, and if any of them are totally unreasonable? Just asking...

 

Apparently you have arrived at the party somewhat late.

 

We are way past the allegations stage, past the pled guilty stage, past the first probationary stage, past the found to be guilty of not meeting probationary terms and conditions stage.  

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Both of Carnival's main competitors, RCI and NCL have had convictions for environmental violations in the past.  I can't speak for RCI, but their last conviction was years ago.  I did work for NCL, at the time that the company was on DOJ probation for their environmental non-compliance, and I can tell you that it led to, as I say it, the "come to Jesus" moment, and a complete turn around in corporate thinking and culture with regards to not just environmental compliance, but regulatory compliance all together. 

 

Royal was banned from Glacier Bay for a while and in a curious and not that long ago move, declined to sign an agreement to sail in Glacier Bay after having been awarded a contract. Hmmmm.

 

Anyway, the judge has set a precedent, and if Royal or NCL screw up again, they should expect the hammer to come down.

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3 hours ago, jetsfan58 said:

Maybe my heart is a forgiving "heart" that was implanted at my birth. I personally know individuals that have "intentionally and/or unintentionally" committed crimes, paid for those crimes many times and are still "held" in judgement by our society. Some of the individuals still can't find "honest" work even though they have "Paid" our society by serving time in an institution. Many employers look the other way when an individual speaks of a past "record". Should we continue to allow those employers to judge them? If so, they may never be "totally" free.

 

My point is that Carnival has to "atone" for their "own" actions. Carnival has to Judge Carnival first. There have to be directives and actions from those in charge. I am not asking the judge to "look the other way" in any means. I am asking that "fairness" be exemplified as it pertains to these incidents.  Do we know if the judge is a Cruise enthusiast? She may dislike the thought of Cruising? There are too many variables in this to make a sound decision. Should this be treated like a "criminal" court matter? Should this be treated as a "Civil" court matter? Who knows. 

 

Many of the discussion points that I am reading appear to want to "get" Carnival? Again it is not about "getting" carnival as much as it is about Carnival learning and doing better.  

Carnival Corp is not a single person with a soul (if you lean that way), but a corporation.  A corporation whose sole reason to exist is to make money doing what it does.  And until it becomes more more profitable to comply than to not, they will not comply.  It is like a built in tax.

 

They have seem to violated, repeatedly, so many conditions of the probation imposed as a result of being found or pleading guilty that they are like the thief who can't stop him/herself from stealing a car if the keys are left out, no matter how many times they've been busted for it. So maybe time for some more serious consequences.  I really don't like the idea of how it may impact my personal enjoyment of cruising in the future, but so be it if they deserve it.

 

So please don't paint them as a lost soul in need of redemption (despite my analogy to a human thief). They are a soulless corporation.

 

I make no judgements over the actions of the individuals supposedly in charge - the corporate game means they are just as much puppets to their shareholders as anyone - maybe they have to forego their souls to get into the game in the first place.  "Greed is good" isn't just a made up phrase by a made up character, it rules Wall Street.

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5 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Carnival Corp is not a single person with a soul (if you lean that way), but a corporation.  A corporation whose sole reason to exist is to make money doing what it does.  And until it becomes more more profitable to comply than to not, they will not comply.  It is like a built in tax.

 

They have seem to violated, repeatedly, so many conditions of the probation imposed as a result of being found or pleading guilty that they are like the thief who can't stop him/herself from stealing a car if the keys are left out, no matter how many times they've been busted for it. So maybe time for some more serious consequences.  I really don't like the idea of how it may impact my personal enjoyment of cruising in the future, but so be it if they deserve it.

 

So please don't paint them as a lost soul in need of redemption (despite my analogy to a human thief). They are a soulless corporation.

 

I make no judgements over the actions of the individuals supposedly in charge - the corporate game means they are just as much puppets to their shareholders as anyone - maybe they have to forego their souls to get into the game in the first place.  "Greed is good" isn't just a made up phrase by a made up character, it rules Wall Street.

Points well taken. However, they are a Corporation made up of Souls. Those same souls are unfortunately guided by "Fleshly Behavior" which sometimes causes us to make irrational choices. Corporate or not Human Nature rules our decisions. They made irrational decisions and now we have to pray and hope that the Lessons Are Finally Learned. If not then they will continue to suffer the wrath of the Courtroom. Nothing is worse that not being able to Control your Own Destiny.  

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40 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

Points well taken. However, they are a Corporation made up of Souls. Those same souls are unfortunately guided by "Fleshly Behavior" which sometimes causes us to make irrational choices. Corporate or not Human Nature rules our decisions. They made irrational decisions and now we have to pray and hope that the Lessons Are Finally Learned. If not then they will continue to suffer the wrath of the Courtroom. Nothing is worse that not being able to Control your Own Destiny.  

I guess Carnival will choose to suffer the wrath of the courtroom.  I suggest you do an internet search about Carnival and environmental violations.  You can see they have been in court some 20 times since 2002.  They pled guilty to INTENTIONALLY dumping raw sewage into the ocean, falsifying records, and illegally using contacts to attempt to determine when USCG auditors would visit.

The judge at one point told the CEO that she wished she could sentence him to prison!

Yes Carnival is a corporation.  Sadly they have repeatedly been proven to have a corporate culture that had a disregard for law and our planet.  And the story continues as they dumped again recently in Miami harbor.  To change a corporate culture I always replaced a few of the "bad apples".

If you or I were on probation after pleading guilty to multiple illegal acts and had repeatedly violated our probation; where do you think we would be today?

These individuals are in control of their destiny.  After 18 YEARS of disregard of the law maybe Carnival needs them to find a new journey of life with another employer.

Edited by Arizona Wildcat
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1 hour ago, jetsfan58 said:

In your professional observation, would it be wise for Carnival also try and introduce the new "Covid" procedures into this latest conversation? I could envision them trying to "tie" together for future rationalization measures a plan for safe cruising as it pertains to Covid waste and proper disposal? At some vantage point the Safe Covid discussion is going to have to evolve. Would Carnival have a future "bargaining advantage" if they were the first to mention a full on plan of attack? If I were heading the Carnival organization, I would certainly want to attempt to "minimize" my return trip to a judge's court room.     

There is really no overlap of the two concerns.  One pertains to what the ship does to the environment outside the ship.  This falls under the EPA, USCG, and DOJ.  Covid response falls under the CDC, and pertains to what is done within the ship.  And, as has been the case for decades, hazardous medical waste has its own disposal stream, and while Carnival may have made violations in this area, I'm not aware of them, and they really don't fall under this environmental concern.

 

The CDC has set forth, years ago, in the VSP (Vessel Sanitation Program), which all cruise ships calling at US ports have to follow, that medical wastes are either incinerated onboard, or double "red bagged" and disposed of ashore, to a service provider licensed in the local area to dispose of medical waste.  Contaminated linens are "red bagged" in dissolvable bags, and placed in the special "medical washer" (higher water temperatures, different detergent and disinfectant dosing) without opening.  These are the same procedures followed for noro outbreaks.

 

Secondly, or as a corollary to my first paragraph, the judge's ruling, and the terms of the probation deal with MARPOL violations, and Covid sanitation procedures have nothing to do with MARPOL. 

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5 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

I guess Carnival will choose to suffer the wrath of the courtroom.  I suggest you do an internet search about Carnival and environmental violations.  You can see they have been in court some 20 times since 2002.  They pled guilty to INTENTIONALLY dumping raw sewage into the ocean, falsifying records, and illegally using contacts to attempt to determine when USCG auditors would visit.

The judge at one point told the CEO that she wished she could sentence him to prison!

Yes Carnival is a corporation.  Sadly they have repeatedly been proven to have a corporate culture that had a disregard for law and our planet.  And the story continues as they dumped again recently in Miami harbor.  To change a corporate culture I always replaced a few of the "bad apples".

If you or I were on probation after pleading guilty to multiple illegal acts and had repeatedly violated our probation; where do you think we would be today?

These individuals are in control of their destiny.  After 18 YEARS of disregard of the law maybe Carnival needs them to find a new journey of life with another employer.

Again your points are well taken. In conjunction with this case, the Federal Government should start an outright campaign to bring to justice all Corporate offenders. We continually see and read stories regarding companies that are continuing to outright "pollute and harm" the communities where they operate. I actually just saw a documentary about a small Parish in Louisiana where more than 50% of all it's residents are suffering the cancerous effects of toxic air produced by this chemical company. I am not in any way condoning the Carnival actions; however, it should be as concerning for the "Human" residents who are suffering? This Louisiana example is just one of many such incidents. The Cruise Industry dumping is hurting current and future marine life which is also tragic. I really do know individuals who have had numerous criminal infractions and have still not completely learned from those misfortunes. Maybe it's in the "Water" or possibly we are all "human" after all. There are no Super Corporations so I will never expect "perfection" from any of them. If they just "Do The Right Thing" then their "mission statements" are accomplished.       

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18 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

INTENTIONALLY dumping raw sewage into the ocean, falsifying records, and illegally using contacts to attempt to determine when USCG auditors would visit.

 

The other poster said they were guilty of dumping grey water that had too much oil content to be considered grey water. Did they also dump raw sewage too? he didn't mention that one. As we all know there is a big difference between raw sewage and grey water.  

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16 hours ago, tidecat said:

I believe you're referring to the Friends of the Earth scorecard, which carries no legal weight. I'm sure other lines are probably taking notice of Carnival's situation, though.

 

Disney, at least in Florida, would have capacity to manage some of their waste streams through the Reedy Creek Improvement District, which provides many "municipal" services to the parks.

Disney Cruise Lines would have to transfer wastes through at least two counties and perhaps a third (Volusia, Orange and Osceola) just to get to Reedy Creek Improvement District (RCID.   The RCID doesn't have any garbage landfills etc.  They rely on other entities to handle their waste streams.

 

Doesn't make sense to ship garbage/waste, just to have to deal with Orange/Osceola county requirements, when you just have to deal will Volusia county.

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1 hour ago, Radiioman46 said:

The other poster said they were guilty of dumping grey water that had too much oil content to be considered grey water. Did they also dump raw sewage too? he didn't mention that one. As we all know there is a big difference between raw sewage and grey water.  

They dumped grey water and oil - LAST MONTH.  That shows careless behavior.  They admitted and pled guilty to some 700 counts regarding a case brought in 2016.  They were put on 5 years probation in the 2016 case settlement and paid a multimillion $$ fine.

Suggest an internet search for Carnival environmental violations.  I got hundreds of articles.

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22 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

What ship of their's was cruising last month?

It was gray water, no oil, and it was in January.  This incident was reported, as required, to the USCG and the Court Appointed Monitor, and the USCG and third party auditors investigated it.  It was ruled a mechanical failure, and while a violation, and likely subject to a fine by USCG, the fact that it was reported as required, and investigated both in house and third party, is in full compliance with the terms of probation.  The USCG decided that no further remediation or clean up was required.

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39 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

What ship of their's was cruising last month?

All Carnival ships are currently at sea.  A couple of them were reported collecting or dropping of crew.  Some in various ports and others cruising just offshore.  They just don't have paying passengers.

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8 hours ago, jetsfan58 said:

Maybe my heart is a forgiving "heart" that was implanted at my birth. I personally know individuals that have "intentionally and/or unintentionally" committed crimes, paid for those crimes many times and are still "held" in judgement by our society. Some of the individuals still can't find "honest" work even though they have "Paid" our society by serving time in an institution. Many employers look the other way when an individual speaks of a past "record". Should we continue to allow those employers to judge them? If so, they may never be "totally" free.

 

My point is that Carnival has to "atone" for their "own" actions. Carnival has to Judge Carnival first. There have to be directives and actions from those in charge. I am not asking the judge to "look the other way" in any means. I am asking that "fairness" be exemplified as it pertains to these incidents.  Do we know if the judge is a Cruise enthusiast? She may dislike the thought of Cruising? There are too many variables in this to make a sound decision. Should this be treated like a "criminal" court matter? Should this be treated as a "Civil" court matter? Who knows. 

 

Many of the discussion points that I am reading appear to want to "get" Carnival? Again it is not about "getting" carnival as much as it is about Carnival learning and doing better.  

 

A corporation is not a human. It is amoral and driven only by profit. Anthropomorphizing a corporation is, in my opinion unwise.

 

A corporation does not "learn". It does react to stimuli that affect profit, but only as long as the stimuli exist.

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5 hours ago, jetsfan58 said:

Again your points are well taken. In conjunction with this case, the Federal Government should start an outright campaign to bring to justice all Corporate offenders. We continually see and read stories regarding companies that are continuing to outright "pollute and harm" the communities where they operate. I actually just saw a documentary about a small Parish in Louisiana where more than 50% of all it's residents are suffering the cancerous effects of toxic air produced by this chemical company. I am not in any way condoning the Carnival actions; however, it should be as concerning for the "Human" residents who are suffering? This Louisiana example is just one of many such incidents. The Cruise Industry dumping is hurting current and future marine life which is also tragic. I really do know individuals who have had numerous criminal infractions and have still not completely learned from those misfortunes. Maybe it's in the "Water" or possibly we are all "human" after all. There are no Super Corporations so I will never expect "perfection" from any of them. If they just "Do The Right Thing" then their "mission statements" are accomplished.       

And that Sports fans was another PSA from the Mayor of Fantasyland!!!....

Edited by mpdog42
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52 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

A corporation is not a human. It is amoral and driven only by profit. Anthropomorphizing a corporation is, in my opinion unwise.

 

A corporation does not "learn". It does react to stimuli that affect profit, but only as long as the stimuli exist.

 

I would postulate that the idea of profit as a corporate driving force is quaint and somewhat old fashioned.  Today's corporations are driven by stock pricing, mergers, IPOs and buying and selling companies, and CEOs look to benchmarks in these areas to secure their bonuses and satisfy their stockholders.   Profit isn't a real priority anymore. 

 

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1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

A corporation is not a human. It is amoral and driven only by profit. Anthropomorphizing a corporation is, in my opinion unwise.

 

A corporation does not "learn". It does react to stimuli that affect profit, but only as long as the stimuli exist.

In your opinion but corporations are still considered people.

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I don't care whether you consider a corporation a person or a hamster, no person or entity should dump gray water or oil or plastic into the ocean and they should be fined heavily if they are caught doing it.  Common sense.

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8 hours ago, MeganGC1983 said:

Court changed it to 30 days. Still plans to restart in Dec. 

That is 30 days after any given ship is declared by the company to be fully compliant.  So, to get to that point, the ship has until November 30 to fix everything that is wrong.  Carnival hasn't done that in 6 months of downtime, I'll be real surprised if their efforts over the next 39 days results in compliance that meets the judge's approval.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

That is 30 days after any given ship is declared by the company to be fully compliant.  So, to get to that point, the ship has until November 30 to fix everything that is wrong.  Carnival hasn't done that in 6 months of downtime, I'll be real surprised if their efforts over the next 39 days results in compliance that meets the judge's approval.

And I read carnival corp may have up to 170 ships they have to get approved to sail out of the USA.

 

It's not just carnival, its hal and princess and  ... I'd like to hear they got started on this inspection stuff.

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