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COVID-19 Surging Across Europe


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1 hour ago, The_Big_M said:

 

It doesn't need to be sustainable. With other actions coronavirus can be managed well. Look at places like Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Australia. No ongoing shutdowns. But managing coronavirus well. 

 

The issue you mentioned about countries with lock downs then ramping up to new highs just shows they did not manage the lock down, nor the rest of the situation well.

 

Hong Kong is part of China and I wouldn't trust any information coming from there.

 

Also, Australia and New Zealand are islands. They can more easily control the virus coming in from other countries and they have implemented very strict regulations for anyone coming in from other countries. For example, anyone that enters New Zealand must isolate for 14 days. They literally have a system setup with isolation facilities where you have to go for 14 days before you can do anything.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-response-planning/covid-19-border-controls

 

These very strict regulations and requirements are simply unconstitutional in many countries including the United States.

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6 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Hong Kong is part of China and I wouldn't trust any information coming from there.

 

Also, Australia and New Zealand are islands. They can more easily control the virus coming in from other countries and they have implemented very strict regulations for anyone coming in from other countries. For example, anyone that enters New Zealand must isolate for 14 days. They literally have a system setup with isolation facilities where you have to go for 14 days before you can do anything.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-response-planning/covid-19-border-controls

 

These very strict regulations and requirements are simply unconstitutional in many countries including the United States.

Vietnam, Japan, Singapore, South Korea have all been successful in controlling Covid. 

 

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2 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

Italy locked down for months and is surging again now.  

Italy has absolutely NOT been locked down "for months."   They only this week imposed some lockdown measures.  Up until this point, in Italy, the following have been open all summer:

What is open in Italy?
  • All hotels and accommodation facilities have reopened providing that a safety distance of one metre is guaranteed in all common areas.
  • Museums and other places of culture (libraries, archives, archaeological areas and parks and monumental complexes.
  • All restaurants, pubs and bars.
  • All beach activites.

 

In addition, travel has been opened virtually completely to visitors from 26 nations.  We have friends who have been to Italy twice in the last 2 months.

Edited by ECCruise
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8 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Hong Kong is part of China and I wouldn't trust any information coming from there.

 

Also, Australia and New Zealand are islands. They can more easily control the virus coming in from other countries and they have implemented very strict regulations for anyone coming in from other countries. For example, anyone that enters New Zealand must isolate for 14 days. They literally have a system setup with isolation facilities where you have to go for 14 days before you can do anything.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-response-planning/covid-19-border-controls

 

These very strict regulations and requirements are simply unconstitutional in many countries including the United States.

 

 

Apparently you aren't aware of the protests that have occurred in Hong Kong for some time to maintain their rights. It's a bit glib to just say you don't trust anything anyway, it doesn't change the situation on the ground. Sick people don't just disappear.

 

And being islands doesn't change the controls much. Whether people come in or out isn't because they're sneaking across land borders. It's a matter of executive decision whether people can enter or not, nothing to do with geography.

 

And the US for some time has controlled who can enter or not via visas, including for example restricting nationals of certain countries entry. Apparently the constitution doesn't require open borders.

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2 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

Italy locked down for months and is surging again now.  

You are quite correct, Italy imposed a nationwide lockdown earlier this year to reduce the spread of the virus which succeeded and allowed the country to open partially for the tourist season. That has led to a resurgence and strict measures are being implemented https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/27/italy-to-unveil-lockdown-relief-package-as-protests-continue

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22 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Italy has absolutely NOT been locked down "for months."   They only this week imposed some lockdown measures.  Up until this point, in Italy, the following have been open all summer:

What is open in Italy?
  • All hotels and accommodation facilities have reopened providing that a safety distance of one metre is guaranteed in all common areas.
  • Museums and other places of culture (libraries, archives, archaeological areas and parks and monumental complexes.
  • All restaurants, pubs and bars.
  • All beach activites.

 

In addition, travel has been opened virtually completely to visitors from 26 nations.  We have friends who have been to Italy twice in the last 2 months.

I was talking about last March when they DID INDEED lockdown for months.

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1 hour ago, Gracie115 said:

I was talking about last March when they DID INDEED lockdown for months.

I understand.

I only quoted and commented on your post because you really made it sound like they were locked down and the surge in cases was contemporaneous.  They were 6 months apart and the surge only occurred after they opened everything up.

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13 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I understand.

I only quoted and commented on your post because you really made it sound like they were locked down and the surge in cases was contemporaneous.  They were 6 months apart and the surge only occurred after they opened everything up.

 

Ok, but I did use "past" tense...😀

 

Exactly, the recent surge happened after they opened up.  Shutting down only helps while a place is shut down...as soon as things open up the virus is still there.  Wearing a mask, washing your hands, staying away from crowds is more effective and doesn't destroy economies.

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30 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

 

Ok, but I did use "past" tense...😀

 

Exactly, the recent surge happened after they opened up.  Shutting down only helps while a place is shut down...as soon as things open up the virus is still there.  Wearing a mask, washing your hands, staying away from crowds is more effective and doesn't destroy economies.

I totally agree.  IF people follow the parameters you mentioned.  Which they are not.

 

The highest infection rates this month are in states that never had a "lockdown" or had one and opened too early.  And most never had a mask mandate, and had very low incidences of mask usage.

 

Which, segueing to cruising, that we will not sail unless the cruise lines institute the following:

 

1)  A required, pre-cruise, negative COVID test

2)  Mandatory mask usage in all public areas.  Not wear a mask?  No need for the crew to fight the pax.  They will be finding their home from the next port, on their own.  

3)  The ability to dine alone with a decent level of distancing.

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4 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

"Unconstitutional?"  Sorry, can't find that article or amendment in the copy I have in front of me.

 

You don't see the "freedom of movement" in the US Constitution? If you don't, then you may have the Constitution of North Korea...not the United States of America.

 

Here's a recent case in Pennsylvania:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677/pdf/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677-1.pdf

 

 

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1 hour ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

You don't see the "freedom of movement" in the US Constitution? If you don't, then you may have the Constitution of North Korea...not the United States of America.

 

Here's a recent case in Pennsylvania:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677/pdf/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677-1.pdf

 

 

you do know that the CDC has the authority to restrict travel between state if it chose to use it during a time of pandemic.

 

State governors also have substantial powers ( varies somewhat between the states) when an emergency has declare. those power can include quarantine, curfew, restricted travel, etc.

 

while that court ruled against some elements other courts had ruled in favor of similar elements.

Edited by nocl
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1 hour ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

You don't see the "freedom of movement" in the US Constitution? If you don't, then you may have the Constitution of North Korea...not the United States of America.

 

Here's a recent case in Pennsylvania:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677/pdf/USCOURTS-pawd-2_20-cv-00677-1.pdf

 

 

 

Nope.  Doesn't discuss the guarantee of "freedom of movement."  Both the Federal government and state governments have the authority to restrict and/or control the movement of citizens.  Done all the time: hurricane evacuations, law enforcement security, etc.  Its for the safety of all citizens.  The federal government can also restrict movement into certain areas, federal lands, security sites.  Nothing in the Constitution guarantees "freedom of movement" of individual citizens.

 

Restrictions are especially important in this environment when it comes to cruising.  Both federal and state government can and do limit civilian movement for the security of all citizens.

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Speaking of movement and COVID-19, France and Germany have just announced new "lock downs" to protect citizens from exposure to the increasing virility of COVID-19.  Very sorry to see this being necessary and don't bode well for the restart of tourist travel between the US and Europe especially for those of us wanting to cruise European waters and trans-Atlantics.  Age initial estimate is for 4 weeks!  Personally believe it will be for a longer period since this virus, as we saw earlier this year, is not easy to mitigate.  Azamara may have it right in that the first "cruises" will need to wait until late Spring in Europe at the earliest.  In the US Spring return to any limited semblance of cruising may be optimistic as European have more cultural discipline than Americans.

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13 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Speaking of movement and COVID-19, France and Germany have just announced new "lock downs" to protect citizens from exposure to the increasing virility of COVID-19.  Very sorry to see this being necessary and don't bode well for the restart of tourist travel between the US and Europe especially for those of us wanting to cruise European waters and trans-Atlantics.  Age initial estimate is for 4 weeks!  Personally believe it will be for a longer period since this virus, as we saw earlier this year, is not easy to mitigate.  Azamara may have it right in that the first "cruises" will need to wait until late Spring in Europe at the earliest.  In the US Spring return to any limited semblance of cruising may be optimistic as European have more cultural discipline than Americans.

I hope it is wrong but I fear it is correct.  My TA from FL ends in Barcelona on May 15, 2021, which if the current 6 month, 11pm-6am curfew holds, will be just a few weeks after, not a good feeling on that.  I won't be sailing anyway until I see if/when cruises resume how it is all handled, if passengers follow guidelines etc.  Not ideal, but can certainly wait until 2022 if that has to be.

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3 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

Nope.  Doesn't discuss the guarantee of "freedom of movement."  Both the Federal government and state governments have the authority to restrict and/or control the movement of citizens.  Done all the time: hurricane evacuations, law enforcement security, etc.  Its for the safety of all citizens.

 

Incorrect, "any restrictions on liberty must be targeted, non-discriminatory, and use the least restrictive means to achieve its ends."

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/salpal/the-right-to-travel-and-national-quarantines-coronavirus-tests-the-limits/

 

For example, if a President travels to Tampa then the government can't just shut down the entire city and require that everyone be locked up in their home.

 

In New Zealand when you arrive you are REQUIRED to go to one of their facilities for 14 days in order to be isolated. Such a restriction in the United States would be thrown out by the courts in 2 milliseconds.

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18 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Incorrect, "any restrictions on liberty must be targeted, non-discriminatory, and use the least restrictive means to achieve its ends."

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/salpal/the-right-to-travel-and-national-quarantines-coronavirus-tests-the-limits/

 

For example, if a President travels to Tampa then the government can't just shut down the entire city and require that everyone be locked up in their home.

 

In New Zealand when you arrive you are REQUIRED to go to one of their facilities for 14 days in order to be isolated. Such a restriction in the United States would be thrown out by the courts in 2 milliseconds.

Well they certainly shut down entire large areas of a city when a president travels, block after block are restricted to travel and blocked by police.  Air space is the same.  If it looks like a shutdown, entire city or partial, it's a shutdown.

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44 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Incorrect, "any restrictions on liberty must be targeted, non-discriminatory, and use the least restrictive means to achieve its ends."

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/salpal/the-right-to-travel-and-national-quarantines-coronavirus-tests-the-limits/

 

For example, if a President travels to Tampa then the government can't just shut down the entire city and require that everyone be locked up in their home.

 

In New Zealand when you arrive you are REQUIRED to go to one of their facilities for 14 days in order to be isolated. Such a restriction in the United States would be thrown out by the courts in 2 milliseconds.

it is well within the authority of the CDC for quarantine. They have already done it on a limited basis for the diamond, the grand and some repatriation flights.

 

if the US were as covid free as New Zealand or australia the CDC could easily do the same under its quarantine authority in conjunction with CBP and the quarantine stations.

 

no reason to do it now because the virus in entrenched. in hindsite should have stopped all international flights in Feb and then activated the quarantine sites for any allowed in would have saved 200,000 lives.

Edited by nocl
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Yes- with sky rocketing new cases- Germany ( and other countries)  are back in Lock Down. Not that severe than the one in March- but still not restaurants, no bars.. etc. Schools and child care remain open though.

What surprised me though was that all German States were united in this - hard- decision and followed the course of our chancelor!

As far as cruising is concerned- the cruise lines already opened will sail along - some with different schdules- but still- you can cruise out of Germany- all other travel is restricted. For time beeing anyway.

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1 hour ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Incorrect, "any restrictions on liberty must be targeted, non-discriminatory, and use the least restrictive means to achieve its ends."

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/salpal/the-right-to-travel-and-national-quarantines-coronavirus-tests-the-limits/

 

For example, if a President travels to Tampa then the government can't just shut down the entire city and require that everyone be locked up in their home.

 

In New Zealand when you arrive you are REQUIRED to go to one of their facilities for 14 days in order to be isolated. Such a restriction in the United States would be thrown out by the courts in 2 milliseconds.

 

Nope. It would comply - it's targeted only to international travellers, doesn't discriminate between them, and is the least restrictive compared to just letting it run rampant and hence reach 2nd and even 3rd waves as in the US - so obviously what is being done there is completely ineffective at achieving its ends.

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Unlikely that they will "sail along" with Schengen countries, the US and Canada closed to tourism much less cruise ships.  Limiting travel and restricting group size, attendance at sporting events, etc., and effective use of PPE is the only way known to medical professionals to limit to spread of COVID-19.  Even if/when a vaccine is approved and found effective it will be long while before it is available to the general public.  Plus, latest information is that it will take two "shots" to obtain effectiveness - with some to be determined time between the two.  That is around 16 billion doses which will take quite a while to dispense much less produce.  Tourists and "cruisers" will not be a high priority.

 

"Cruising" restart, with all the restrictions recommended by the CDC and the RCG/NCL study, by Summer 2021 is a very long shot.  And, it will require changes in the way we think of cruising...

Edited by Ride-The-Waves
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On 10/25/2020 at 7:03 PM, hcat said:

 

SW Air is still skipping middle seating..hope that helps when we fly on Nov 15th from NY to Fl .  Not crazy about flying but we decided driving  for 2 days not very appealing either.  We will continue to self isolate when we get there except for getting groceries  and take out dinners.  Hope to walk outdoors in the sunshin

 

Hope things improve as folks pitch in to lower the upward trends.


 

actually, Southwest is now selling all seats. 

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