No Sail Order Lifted

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

I don't believe the passengers of any ship in distress are going to just sit back and watch their TVs, do you? I'm certain the crew is highly trained and drilled enough to handle themselves.

 

The point of the interactive video is so that passengers become familiar with the life jacket use, the emergency whistle protocol, then  their muster location can be visited later at their leisure, allowing for social distancing practices to be effective. Most people naturally fall into line under those who are clearly leaders in disasters, so I'm sure everyone will, in fact, shut up and listen.

The crew becomes highly trained by doing the drill with passengers. There is a reason for drills.

 

And no I don't think in a real emergency, passengers would just sit by their tv. I was being facetious as that's what you have them do for your idea of a drill (or maybe it is the new idea of the cruise lines.) I think they would be more likely to PANIC.

 

Again all of these board's experienced mariners seem to think of these drills without passengers going to their muster stations as totally unproven and fear a disaster in a real emergency.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

I don't know...I saw the Movie Titanic...it was a disaster!!  No pun intended.  🙂

You may not have meant it as a pun, but it made me laugh.😊

[Roberto256]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The crew becomes highly trained by doing the drill with passengers.

 

No, they don't.  Some departments, like dining, don't even participate in passenger drills.

 

Crew have seperate drills (which I think have to occur every 2 weeks) as well as other

training.

 

[MissP22]

7 hours ago, gmjc2 said:

Muster will be on TV in cabin with a system to know if you have watched it, such as a interactive screen with a button!

It'll be next to impossible to enforce mandatory viewing. 

[Daniel A]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

often the criticism of rules in the form of that rule is ridiculous goes hand in hand with not going follow it. why because it is ridiculous. social distancing that is ridiculous, masks they are ridiculous. and so on.

 

If a cruise has a rule you don't like fine discuss the merits and don't go on a cruise while it is there. but keep in mind that the rule would not be there if someone more knowledgeable about the issue did not have a valid reason for it.

I note that you didn't address the matter of no suggested protocols for the availability of a vaccine.

[nocl]

3 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I note that you didn't address the matter of no suggested protocols for the availability of a vaccine.

I expect that there are no protocols because as of this time there is no vaccine.  Once there is a vaccine than the CDC may or may not choose to add a protocol, same with other countries.  

big different between a vaccine with 50% efficacy and 90% efficacy.  Doubt you would even see a protocol with the former, you might with the latter.

[Daniel A]

9 minutes ago, MissP22 said:

It'll be next to impossible to enforce mandatory viewing. 

Princess already had a safety video with Captain Stubing that you had to play before watching anything else on the TV.  After so many times seeing it, I always knew to put it on just before I left the cabin to go up for a pizza and a beer.  😅

[Daniel A]

5 minutes ago, nocl said:

I expect that there are no protocols because as of this time there is no vaccine.  Once there is a vaccine than the CDC may or may not choose to add a protocol, same with other countries.  

big different between a vaccine with 50% efficacy and 90% efficacy.  Doubt you would even see a protocol with the former, you might with the latter.

I enjoy our debates.  Sometime I'd really like to sit with you in the Wheelhouse and have a good discussion.  I think in the long run we could become good friends.

 

-Dan

 

[nocl]

Just now, Daniel A said:

I enjoy our debates.  Sometime I'd really like to sit with you in the Wheelhouse and have a good discussion.  I think in the long run we could become good friends.

 

-Dan

 

Once sailing gets back to more normal we will have to coordinate a cruise.  Would be fun.

[beg3yrs]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

.. but keep in mind that the rule would not be there if someone more knowledgeable about the issue did not have a valid reason for it.

So, all rules are made by people more knowledgeable with valid reasons? I don't think so. There have been many terrible 'rules' made by people with little knowledge and faulty reasoning. It's not a good idea to always follow rules blindly.

[nocl]

2 minutes ago, beg3yrs said:

So, all rules are made by people more knowledgeable with valid reasons? I don't think so. There have been many terrible 'rules' made by people with little knowledge and faulty reasoning. It's not a good idea to always follow rules blindly.

Oh there are some terrible rules for some things.  But the class of rules we are discussing.  The health protocols on cruise ships are being made after substantial investigation and are knowledgeable. As much as anyone can be with a virus less than 12 months old.

 

As one of college instructors once told me when someone says that something is ridiculous it is either because they are trying to denigrate a position, or they do not understand the position, but it does indicate any attempt to discuss the merits of a position.

[SNJCruisers]

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

 

So how does having it play on your tv accomplish that? And if a real emergency happened, is just sitting in front of your tv what you are prepared to do?

 

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

 

Again all of these board's experienced mariners seem to think of these drills without passengers going to their muster stations as totally unproven and fear a disaster in a real emergency.

 

1 hour ago, MissP22 said:

It'll be next to impossible to enforce mandatory viewing. 

Here is a link to a cruise critic article about the new muster drill section of Royal Caribbean's app.  There is also a version that would be able to be viewed on the TVs in the cabins for those cruisers that do not have a smart phone. There are steps that need to be accomplished while viewing the muster drill on the app and then the cruisers must go to their muster station at their leisure to "check in".  Don't know if this will be done with a live person or a kiosk.  All cruisers must go through this.

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5482/

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Roberto256 said:

 

No, they don't.  Some departments, like dining, don't even participate in passenger drills.

 

Crew have seperate drills (which I think have to occur every 2 weeks) as well as other

training.

 

The one thing consistently emphasized by the experienced mariners in these boards is THAT IT IS THE ONLY TIME THE CREW GETS TO DRILL WITH PASSENGERS. This is the important part everyone defending these virtual drills keeps ignoring.

[Mike45LC]

3 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Princess already had a safety video with Captain Stubing that you had to play before watching anything else on the TV.  After so many times seeing it, I always knew to put it on just before I left the cabin to go up for a pizza and a beer.  😅

My solution is to never turn on the TV during the cruise.  That exempted me not only from watching the required video but from being exposed to the Morning Show and other obnoxious "content".   But I know I am atypical.  

 

Years ago, the Port Lectures were interesting info about the ports, but even before the lectures were "televised" so you could view them in the cabins, they turned into nothing but sales pitches for the stores which paid the cruise line.  So I don't mind missing this content.

 

[Potstech]

10 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

Muster drill will be via TV in cabin - must watch it to do anything else with TV and they can probably check if it has been played in each cabin.

 

Of course, you could just let it play while unpacking or taking a shower and no one the wiser.

 

This was what was required on our Jan 2020 cruise before all the shutdown happened.

[Potstech]

6 hours ago, nocl said:

but if they did what you proposed and send them to a ship in EU waters for training  then from there to the US they would have to clear both sets of quarantine rules. More than doubling the time than if they just set them directly to a US ship. (EU rules for quarantine are more stringent). That makes it unlikely and more likely that the person heading to the Regal will be working on that ship.

So you don't think they can train in Europe for the US rules?  They will have to clear multiple different rules depending on the country they are going to be going to. I guess you are not familiar with corporate training in one place to cover rules, regulations and procedures for many other. By your own statement the EU rules are more stringent so if they train for them then they most likely will be trained for other less stringent areas.  Many companies and entities only train in one area. Saves massive amounts of money.

[nocl]

7 minutes ago, Potstech said:

So you don't think they can train in Europe for the US rules?  They will have to clear multiple different rules depending on the country they are going to be going to. I guess you are not familiar with corporate training in one place to cover rules, regulations and procedures for many other. By your own statement the EU rules are more stringent so if they train for them then they most likely will be trained for other less stringent areas.  Many companies and entities only train in one area. Saves massive amounts of money.

They can train in Europe that is not the issue. Let me map the two scenerios.

 

One train in Europe prior to deploy to USBased ship

 

1 quarantine in home country 14 days

2. Quarantine on land in Europe prior to boarding ship 14 days

3. Training period X days

4 travel to US to meet ship Quarantine according to CDC rules 14 days.

5. Participate is CDC mandated practice cruises Y days.

 

Total time 42 days in quarantine + training period X + practices cruises Y

 

42 + Y +X

 

Option 2 go directly to US to train

 

1. CDC quarantine 14 days

2 Training period X days

3 Practice Cruises Y days

 

quarantine 14 days + X days Trainimg + Y days practice cruises

 

14 + X +  Y

 

The Train in before going to us ship would require 14 additional quarantine days plus additional travel expense. For the cruise line to be sending crew to Europe to train would result in a month delay, a month worth of expenses just because of the extra quarantine requirements. So very unlikely that they would save money and they certainly would not take that approach if they were in a hurry to start up US based ships.

 

Which was where this started when someone mentioned a friend of theirs being sent to the Regal.

[nocl]

Just now, nocl said:

They can train in Europe that is not the issue. Let me map the two scenerios.

 

One train in Europe prior to deploy to USBased ship

 

1 quarantine in home country 14 days

2. Quarantine on land in Europe prior to boarding ship 14 days

3. Training period X days

4 travel to US to meet ship Quarantine according to CDC rules 14 days.

5. Participate is CDC mandated practice cruises Y days.

 

Total time 42 days in quarantine + training period X + practices cruises Y

 

42 + Y +X

 

Option 2 go directly to US to train

 

1. CDC quarantine 14 days

2 Training period X days

3 Practice Cruises Y days

 

quarantine 14 days + X days Trainimg + Y days practice cruises

 

14 + X +  Y

 

The Train in before going to us ship would require 14 additional quarantine days plus additional travel expense. For the cruise line to be sending crew to Europe to train would result in a month delay, a month worth of expenses just because of the extra quarantine requirements. So very unlikely that they would save money and they certainly would not take that approach if they were in a hurry to start up US based ships.

 

Which was where this started when someone mentioned a friend of theirs being sent to the Regal.

it should say train in Europe first would require 28 additional quarantine days.

[caribill]

15 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

You are spot on with your analysis.  Yes, there is a slight chance one could catch the virus in casual passing...but less chance of that then being struck by lightning.  Here's a few realities:  1) if people are masked it eliminates the chance that droplets will be breathed in and the droplets are the main opportunity to be infected; 2) if passing someone while masked and them being masked as well isn't sufficent to stop the spread, then why wear masks; 3) people do not properly care for their masks, refrain from touching their masks, or have fitted masks, so until those factors are all addressed, keeping that mask on your face after walking through droplets in the air is makes it more likely you get infected because the droplets stick to the cloth and you continue to breathe them in.

 

 

I forget which state it is, but it was up to each county if wearing masks would be mandatory.

 

The counties that required the masks had significantly less new Covid-19 cases and lower positivity rates than the counties that did not require it.

[HappyInVan]

21 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

But I'm with you...people believe what they want...they can find support for either "Truth" on the internet...I personally live with someone on the front lines and believe she has kept me honest in how it spreads and what are the real precautions to take...that's where I base my opinions.  FYI:  every single doctor in her Clinic have condemned lockdowns as being more of a health risk to many more people...they prefer protecting the vulnerable and opening everything up.  But what do they know...they're just Doctors.

 

You obviously think you know the 'truth'. But, I would rather listen to Dr. Fauci and Redfield etc. Plus the many academic and technical studies.

 

Obviously, your doctors don't understand the purpose of a lockdown. Necessary when hospitals and ICU are close to full. Without a lockdown, patients will keep arriving at the hospital. They're be stacking covid patients in the corridors. Or. sending them home. Deaths will soar as in NYC.

 

[Potstech]

9 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

You obviously think you know the 'truth'. But, I would rather listen to Dr. Fauci and Redfield etc. Plus the many academic and technical studies.

 

Obviously, your doctors don't understand the purpose of a lockdown. Necessary when hospitals and ICU are close to full. Without a lockdown, patients will keep arriving at the hospital. They're be stacking covid patients in the corridors. Or. sending them home. Deaths will soar as in NYC.

 

Fauci and Redfield are both all over the place every week. Obviously they do understand the purpose of a lockdown and have seen how ineffective they have been in Europe.  There have been academic and technical studies to support both sides from reputable institutions.  Again who is right and truthfully?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Potstech

[MissP22]

15 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Princess already had a safety video with Captain Stubing that you had to play before watching anything else on the TV.  After so many times seeing it, I always knew to put it on just before I left the cabin to go up for a pizza and a beer.  😅

That's pretty much what everyone on the ship does. 😄

[HappyInVan]

13 minutes ago, Potstech said:

There have been academic and technical studies to support both sides from reputable institutions.  

 

Where are your sources from reputable institutions? I have never seen one to support your position?

[HappyInVan]

There's a lot of people of conviction here who depend on heresy or flawed intelligence.

 

What is a credible proposition? It must be logical. Evidence flowing into conclusions. For example, DR. Redfield says that..

 

“This face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against COVID than when I take a COVID vaccine,” Redfield said, referring to COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. That disease has now killed about 200,000 people in the United States.”

 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cdc-chief-says-masks-better-at-stopping-coronavirus-than-a-vaccine-173526486.html

 

Backed up by technical studies. For example, a group from Duke University produced the chart below about the effectiveness of different kinds of mask.

 

So, the scientists and doctors offer advise based on the best knowledge available. That advice evolves as knowledge is gained about the subject. Reliable people will follow the science always, even if they have to reverse their advise.

 

At this stage of the game, there is a huge amount of knowledge from studies, experiments and field operations.

 

At the start, WHO was against the use of mass quarantines, unless containment options have failed. The Chinese government quarantined Wuhan because the disease was out of control. Operation was successful. Stern measures have been used since at the start of each outbreak. Success. China is back to normal. Economy doing well. Exports at new high.

 

Korea's containment program successful. Large scale testing, and vigorous contact tracing worked. No quarantine. Today, South Korea is reporting @100 cases a day. Death toll total 476.

 

What's the death toll of South Dakota?

 

Australia and New Zealand chose to quarantine themselves, and suppress each outbreak decisively with lockdowns and quarantines. Success.

 

On the other hand, places have not followed WHO's recommendation about the 5% positivity rate. Opening too soon, or shutting down too late. How many places now have soaring infections, filling hospitals and positivity rates of >20%.

 

Once its out of control, how will you suppress the epidemic? Listen to the successful people, not to the failures.

 

 

[Keksie]

A quarantine is when you isolate contagious people until they are no longer contagious.  A lockdown is when you keep perfectly healthy people isolated causing large numbers of unemployment, domestic abuse, drug use, alcohol abuse, and depression.