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Cruise Lines - Time of Plan Move USA Cruises OFFSHORE


Formula280SS
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It is becoming clear ("crystal") that the resumption of cruises out of the USA will be difficult, at best.  Covid 19 is a factor, IMO, it was the convenient excuse.

 

The entire concept of cruising, on these beautiful and majestic ships, is antithetical to many (some would say half).  Such is nonessential, thanks to Covid 19, but it is cover for long-term aspirations to minimize such as being economically and socially discriminative.

 

So, why fight it?

 

The cruise lines have spent tens of millions on port capacities and facilities in the USA, most in Florida.  The itineraries are primarily the Caribbean; south.  The cruise lines are losing over a "billion" a month with massive regulatory oversight and the related costs over the horizon.  Such control momentum never recedes. 

 

Large Caribbean islands, dependent on cruise line revenues and intertwined with the smaller islands, capable of air and hotel accommodation capacities, with "investment by the cruise lines," should now be considered by the cruise lines as an alternative future embarkation magnate. 

 

Investment in the Caribbean alternative is pocket change compared to the billions a month in extended and un-estimable time periods.

 

Why?

 

Generally, you (business) goes where it is welcomed.  It, the cruise industry, is welcomed in the Caribbean.

 

It is pretty clear it, the cruise industry, is not welcomed in the USA.  The 'port host country is adamantly opposed to you doing mere turn-arounds, doesn't like not being able to regulate you when leaving its' waters, you ship 'flagging, your wages, etc., and really down in the reeds, deeply loathes your customers' largesse.

 

It is what it is. 

 

You move one.

 

Time for the cruise lines to begin to cooperate, align and advocate commencement of this planning.  It's not a waster of resources or time; you can't win any negotiation "points" at all when the opponent has all of the cards.

 

Play another card and prepare for the future and do not rely this high % on USA ports.

 

IMO.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Formula280SS said:

Generally, you (business) goes where it is welcomed.  It, the cruise industry, is welcomed in the Caribbean.

 

It is pretty clear it, the cruise industry, is not welcomed in the USA.

 

Not quite sure what the OP was saying in the entire post but I disagree with the above quote. I think the local economies of Miami as well as numerous other U.S. ports (since the cruise lines have "home ported" their ships in other U.S. cities/ports). Cruise industry has a huge economical impact to these areas and the industry is very much welcomed. Yes, the cruise industry is welcomed in the Caribbean and even more than welcomed as many of these countries/ports are very dependent on the revenue & tourism $$ that the cruise lines bring in.

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Well, along the lines of what the OP was advocating....  How about San Juan.  They have all the infrastructure they need, have the airlines, have the hotels, and a number of cruise lines are already "homeported" there.  (And heaven knows they NEED the revenue).  

 

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.  

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2 minutes ago, FredT said:

Well, along the lines of what the OP was advocating....  How about San Juan.  They have all the infrastructure they need, have the airlines, have the hotels, and a number of cruise lines are already "homeported" there.  (And heaven knows they NEED the revenue).  

 

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.  

 

San Juan isn't considered a U.S. port?

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22 minutes ago, FredT said:

Well, along the lines of what the OP was advocating....  How about San Juan.  They have all the infrastructure they need, have the airlines, have the hotels, and a number of cruise lines are already "homeported" there.  (And heaven knows they NEED the revenue).  

 

 

19 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

San Juan isn't considered a U.S. port?

 

Yeah, San Juan is definitely a U.S. port and a very busy cruise ship port. I know NCL home ports the Epic there (part of the year?) and I'm sure other cruise lines do as well. Also, San Juan is very favorable where it is located geographically (closer to the eastern & southern Caribbean islands).

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While we were on our first NCL cruise on the Dawn back in '04 we were chatting with the CD and he told us that San Juan WAS at one point the largest cruise ship port; for many of the reasons quoted above.  After 9/11, however, not a lot of folks wanted to fly to San Juan and back just to cruise so the industry shifted from San Juan to Florida; particularly Miami.

 

 It seems to me, however,  that the state of Florida would very much like to see the cruise ship industry return to its pre-COVID status.  With everything is flux right now due to COVID & the US elections we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

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1 hour ago, zqvol said:

Clearly OP has a personal agenda of a desire to cruise soon. The real question is: What island has the infrastructure to handle being a home port for a cruise line?

 

 

Sorry, not at all.  I can't cruise until a vaccine and therapeutic are established and proven.  Genetic coronary issues regardless of great shape, three decade runner, plant-based diet.  It is what it is.  So, no personal agenda.

 

Re: what island infrastructure can handle?  Read.  It was about investment going forward to not be so reliant on USA ports.

 

Please read the posts.  TIA.

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1 hour ago, farmersfight said:

 

Not quite sure what the OP was saying in the entire post but I disagree with the above quote. I think the local economies of Miami as well as numerous other U.S. ports (since the cruise lines have "home ported" their ships in other U.S. cities/ports). Cruise industry has a huge economical impact to these areas and the industry is very much welcomed. Yes, the cruise industry is welcomed in the Caribbean and even more than welcomed as many of these countries/ports are very dependent on the revenue & tourism $$ that the cruise lines bring in.

 

I totally agree there is a huge economic impact in the precise areas you note and I have posted such.

 

It is not the port host cities against cruising, or even the states.

 

Nor I.

 

The business model of relying on the USA ports at such a dominant high % has to be re-assessed. 

 

It is too volatile.

 

When compared to the billion+ per month of losses, investment in an alternative, back-up if you will, Plan B or whatever in the Caribbean makes perfect business sense.

 

FYI, I don't favor such; rather wearing no rose colored glasses with the factors and factions at work and in play in the USA.

 

Wall Street and K Street have shorted the big-3 10-25%.  How do they make billions?  Delay, delay, delay cruising from the USA.

 

In the back, side and front pockets of the oversight regulators.

 

🤨

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When talking about the billions of dollars the lines are losing, and suggesting that they invest more millions in new infrastructure in the Caribbean, the OP conveniently fails to remember that most, if not all, of those places he wants the cruise lines to invest in, were closed down to cruise ships for months as well.  Many are still not open for cruise ships, some have opened just recently.  So, the losses cannot be blamed entirely on the CDC, and US government corruption as the OP insinuates.  Why else was cruising halted, worldwide, if it was simply a problem with US government oversight?

 

And, given Carnival Corp's environmental behavior over the last 20 years (and they are the biggest player after all, and the problem extends the full breadth of their lines), I don't think that allowing the cruise lines to operate with less regulatory oversight is a real good idea.

 

Even here on CC, there has been discussions about the cruise lines "not carrying their weight" when it comes to things like medical care.  Accepting medically compromised passengers, and then passing them off to governmental evacuations and local hospitals (overseas and in the US), without putting any support into that infrastructure.  I see a lot of the requirements of the CDC in this new order being a way for these foreign corporations that do business in the US to contribute to the infrastructure they benefit from.  Remember, the US tax code, while requiring most foreign corporations that earn revenue in the US to pay US taxes, it specifically exempts ship revenue from all US taxes.  To me, this is not a "mercurial" response, but a measured response to a decades old problem.

 

But, yes, the cruise lines are free to decide whether to home port outside the US, but I suspect that their market research has shown that the demographic for cruises like that is far more limited than cruises home ported in the US.  If they decide to move, it would be economic, but should not be blamed on US government oversight, "mercurial responses", or corruption.

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10 hours ago, tomk3212 said:

While we were on our first NCL cruise on the Dawn back in '04 we were chatting with the CD and he told us that San Juan WAS at one point the largest cruise ship port; for many of the reasons quoted above.  After 9/11, however, not a lot of folks wanted to fly to San Juan and back just to cruise so the industry shifted from San Juan to Florida; particularly Miami.

 

 It seems to me, however,  that the state of Florida would very much like to see the cruise ship industry return to its pre-COVID status.  With everything is flux right now due to COVID & the US elections we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

 

Yeah, I personally saw how busy San Juan was with cruise ships. When I was a cadet at Texas Maritime Academy, our training ship (Texas Clipper) called at San Juan in the summer of 1979, so definitely a while ago. Our training ship docked at Roosevelt Roads Naval Base but a few of us cadets when into downtown San Juan where the cruise ships where docked. There must've been a half a dozen cruise ships docked there. Since this was pre-9/11, we actually were able to board one of the cruise ships (I think we just told "security" that we were maritime cadets and they let us board, believe it or not). We walked around and went to a couple of bars on board. We were even able to walk up to the bridge, go in and chat with one of the officers in the chart room (we even were still carrying our drinks from the bar, lol). Yeah, security was much different (lax) back then. We stayed on the ship for awhile (went back to the bar) and even almost didn't get back off in time before the ship sailed. We heard an announcement about the ship about to depart so we quickly got off the ship. Ahhh, good times/memories, lol.

 

Anyway, I digress. Bottom line, San Juan was (and still will be) a very busy cruise port. I wasn't aware of the fact you mentioned that San Juan was the largest cruise ship port. Interesting how 9/11 affected that and the cruise lines shifted to Florida, particularly Miami. However, I'm sure Miami was growing larger and busier as a cruise home port as well at the time. I believe the 9/11 factor (people not wanting to fly) also played into the cruise lines' decision to home port some of their ships in other ports in the U.S. (where previously, there were no cruise ships home ported, i.e. Galveston, Jacksonville, Charleston, Baltimore, NY/NJ, Boston, etc). Many people then could drive and wouldn't have to fly.

 

I agree, we'll have to see how cruising will look when this all plays out. Once the election is settled and a vaccine is out, I think cruising will return like gang busters; there's a very high pent up demand for cruising to resume; for example, @seaman11.

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26 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

When talking about the billions of dollars the lines are losing, and suggesting that they invest more millions in new infrastructure in the Caribbean, the OP conveniently fails to remember that most, if not all, of those places he wants the cruise lines to invest in, were closed down to cruise ships for months as well.  Many are still not open for cruise ships, some have opened just recently.  So, the losses cannot be blamed entirely on the CDC, and US government corruption as the OP insinuates.  Why else was cruising halted, worldwide, if it was simply a problem with US government oversight?

 

And, given Carnival Corp's environmental behavior over the last 20 years (and they are the biggest player after all, and the problem extends the full breadth of their lines), I don't think that allowing the cruise lines to operate with less regulatory oversight is a real good idea.

 

Even here on CC, there has been discussions about the cruise lines "not carrying their weight" when it comes to things like medical care.  Accepting medically compromised passengers, and then passing them off to governmental evacuations and local hospitals (overseas and in the US), without putting any support into that infrastructure.  I see a lot of the requirements of the CDC in this new order being a way for these foreign corporations that do business in the US to contribute to the infrastructure they benefit from.  Remember, the US tax code, while requiring most foreign corporations that earn revenue in the US to pay US taxes, it specifically exempts ship revenue from all US taxes.  To me, this is not a "mercurial" response, but a measured response to a decades old problem.

 

But, yes, the cruise lines are free to decide whether to home port outside the US, but I suspect that their market research has shown that the demographic for cruises like that is far more limited than cruises home ported in the US.  If they decide to move, it would be economic, but should not be blamed on US government oversight, "mercurial responses", or corruption.

 

I agree 100%. With the high demand for cruising by  U.S. citizens and the enormous tax break these foreign cruise lines and ships (flags of convenience) get here in the U.S., the cruise lines will continue to home port their ships here in U.S. ports, especially Miami. Look at where these cruise lines located their U.S. HQ offices; Miami. Also look at the investment (pre-covid) the cruise lines were making in Miami with brand new terminals, etc. I also think that home porting their ships in other U.S. ports, closer to where their customers live so they wouldn't have to fly, was and will continue to be a success for the cruise lines.

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I think you are missing the consideration that the large majority of cruisers from US ports are Americans.  How many of them will pay thousands of dollars to fly to a Caribbean Port to then pay thousands more to go on a cruise? This model will essentially make cruising unaffordable for most of the current clientele.  If the cruise lines go back to smaller ships, it might work.  The premium lines already do it - but their ships have a fraction of the passengers of the larger lines.  I don’t see how the lines would be profitable leaving US ports - they won’t be able to fill their ships.

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15 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

San Juan isn't considered a U.S. port?

Sure San Juan is legally a "US" port.....   But it is a US port on an economically devastated island.  From what I gather from listening to news from Texas and Florida it is the STATES that are putting up the loudest stink concerning the cruise lines.   Something tells me that Puerto Rico (And yes, I know it's not a state but a commonwealth ) would be a LOT more receptive to overtures from the cruise line industry.   

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14 minutes ago, FredT said:

Sure San Juan is legally a "US" port.....   But it is a US port on an economically devastated island.  From what I gather from listening to news from Texas and Florida it is the STATES that are putting up the loudest stink concerning the cruise lines.   Something tells me that Puerto Rico (And yes, I know it's not a state but a commonwealth ) would be a LOT more receptive to overtures from the cruise line industry.   

Well, Puerto Rico slammed the gates real quick and real hard at the beginning of the pandemic, even turning away cruises scheduled to return.

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18 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

It is becoming clear ("crystal") that the resumption of cruises out of the USA will be difficult, at best.  Covid 19 is a factor, IMO, it was the convenient excuse.

 

The entire concept of cruising, on these beautiful and majestic ships, is antithetical to many (some would say half).  Such is nonessential, thanks to Covid 19, but it is cover for long-term aspirations to minimize such as being economically and socially discriminative.

 

So, why fight it?

 

The cruise lines have spent tens of millions on port capacities and facilities in the USA, most in Florida.  The itineraries are primarily the Caribbean; south.  The cruise lines are losing over a "billion" a month with massive regulatory oversight and the related costs over the horizon.  Such control momentum never recedes. 

 

Large Caribbean islands, dependent on cruise line revenues and intertwined with the smaller islands, capable of air and hotel accommodation capacities, with "investment by the cruise lines," should now be considered by the cruise lines as an alternative future embarkation magnate. 

 

Investment in the Caribbean alternative is pocket change compared to the billions a month in extended and un-estimable time periods.

 

Why?

 

Generally, you (business) goes where it is welcomed.  It, the cruise industry, is welcomed in the Caribbean.

 

It is pretty clear it, the cruise industry, is not welcomed in the USA.  The 'port host country is adamantly opposed to you doing mere turn-arounds, doesn't like not being able to regulate you when leaving its' waters, you ship 'flagging, your wages, etc., and really down in the reeds, deeply loathes your customers' largesse.

 

It is what it is. 

 

You move one.

 

Time for the cruise lines to begin to cooperate, align and advocate commencement of this planning.  It's not a waster of resources or time; you can't win any negotiation "points" at all when the opponent has all of the cards.

 

Play another card and prepare for the future and do not rely this high % on USA ports.

 

IMO.

 

 

Well said...

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6 hours ago, Formula280SS said:

Wow, I never realized the extent of the disdain for the cruise lines (and the deplorable cruise passengers); but good to know.

 

 

Completely the opposite. I don't think there is anybody on these CC forums that have disdain for the cruise lines (and the deplorable cruise passengers), especially @chengkp75.  He has experience, insight & knowledge of Carnival Corp's violations of International & domestic environmental laws and has rightfully pointed that out.

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19 hours ago, FredT said:

Well, along the lines of what the OP was advocating....  How about San Juan.  They have all the infrastructure they need, have the airlines, have the hotels, and a number of cruise lines are already "homeported" there.  (And heaven knows they NEED the revenue).  

 

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.  

Well, at least this isn't as bad as thinking Hawaii is foreign, which I saw on another site. Our American ignorance of even our own territories is really embarrassing.

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43 minutes ago, farmersfight said:

 

Completely the opposite. I don't think there is anybody on these CC forums that have disdain for the cruise lines (and the deplorable cruise passengers), especially @chengkp75.  He has experience, insight & knowledge of Carnival Corp's violations of International & domestic environmental laws and has rightfully pointed that out.

 I have always liked and relied on most of the input of @chenkp75 regarding ship related matters. 

 

On other matters, such are simply individual opinions as we all have; and in some areas others' (of us) have a significant contribution in areas of our experiences.

 

Regarding Carnival Corp's environmental issues, if he, you and others believe cruising should not resume after Covid 19 because of such, that would unfairly penalize the other cruise lines.  If Carnival should not be allowed in US waters for pre-Covid environmental violations, not a problem for me at all.

 

However, using Carnival's environmental record as a Covid 19 steroid against resumption of cruises by all lines is not, IMO, appropriate.

 

Re: "I don't think there is anybody on these CC forums that have disdain for the cruise lines (and the deplorable cruise passengers)" is naive.  Have you read the threads across the numerous forums?

 

Back to the OP.  The cruise lines should look to minimize their dependence on USA ports for their Caribbean itinerary sailings going forward by investing in accommodating Caribbean nations and islands as a matter of financial and regulatory risk assessment.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

Regarding Carnival Corp's environmental issues, if he, you and others believe cruising should not resume after Covid 19 because of such, that would unfairly penalize the other cruise lines.

Did I say that the cruise lines shouldn't resume cruising because of Carnival's environmental violations?  If you read real, real, carefully, you'll see that I didn't say anything near that.  I was using this as an example why your proposed relaxation of governmental oversight by going "offshore" would not be a good idea, based on their past performance.  I don't think that the CDC requirements are "out of control" governmental regulations, especially in this pandemic, and I don't believe that all of them will become permanent, but some may, and some should.  But I also don't feel that the requirements will keep the cruise lines from operating, and making a profit, in the US, it just means, as you say, they need a different business model, one where they have to pay a bit more to meet the government oversight that benefits all citizens of all countries.

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Silverseas, Carnival and P&O have used Barbados as a port of embarkation many times. The island is open to visitors and has been accommodating the cruise lines for repatriation of crew since the pandemic started. The cruise lines could get started with limited ships until the US gets its act together. Based on the news today, new US leadership is coming which is a breath of fresh air.

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Not just yet, but at some point in the next six months, the cruise lines will have to evaluate the risk/reward of being dependent on the US and other countries as embarkation points and ports of call.

Regrettably those nations that choose to continue onerous restrictions after a vaccine need to be passed over in favor of those that are eager to restart tourism.

Not saying forever, just a year or two to reduce the uncertainty.

I’m intrigued by the cruise lines rush to schedule Canada, Australia, etc. with those countries showing zero interest in resumption of tourism.

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10 hours ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Not just yet, but at some point in the next six months, the cruise lines will have to evaluate the risk/reward of being dependent on the US and other countries as embarkation points and ports of call.

Regrettably those nations that choose to continue onerous restrictions after a vaccine need to be passed over in favor of those that are eager to restart tourism.

Not saying forever, just a year or two to reduce the uncertainty.

I’m intrigued by the cruise lines rush to schedule Canada, Australia, etc. with those countries showing zero interest in resumption of tourism.

 

Well said.

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