Plain and Simple

[pcakes122]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:22 AM, MrsKC08 said:

Hahaha. You totally missed my point. Contract tracing is a joke. The CDC has pretty much claimed that there is no real way of knowing WHERE you have picked up the virus. As for notifying others...they DO NOT do this, and this is put on the person who has tested positive. We know this first hand, as we have been around others who tested positive in the months that this has been around. 

Are you certain that the people who tested positive gave your name and contact information to the health department? It is on the "honor system" that folks testing positive fully report all their contacts.

[Red-Sol]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

Because it's true.  Stop shaking and put up or...

 

I got the numbers.  I keep asking people to prove me wrong yet...I'm still waiting.  Here's your chance.

Just for you Sparky:

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vs-flu-deaths-hospitalized-patients.html

 

Don't let facts get in your way....Now if you want to produce your numbers from Fox, or Breitbart or whatever flavor of conspiracy media you like...go for it.

 

TTFN

[sanger727]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:22 AM, MrsKC08 said:

Hahaha. You totally missed my point. Contract tracing is a joke. The CDC has pretty much claimed that there is no real way of knowing WHERE you have picked up the virus. As for notifying others...they DO NOT do this, and this is put on the person who has tested positive. We know this first hand, as we have been around others who tested positive in the months that this has been around. 

Your information is 100% false. I do the initial contact tracing for my work place and work closely with our health department because of it.

 

1. the purpose of contact tracing is not to determine where you caught Covid. Completely agree that that can’t be done and frankly wouldn’t be beneficial since the person you caught it from is no longer contagious 

 

2. the purpose of contact tracing is to determine who YOU may have spread it to. And this is essential because there may be several people that you spread it to that are not yet sick or contagious and could quarantine to reduce the likelihood of continuing the spread

 

3. health departments absolutely will contact the people you list of you call them back and have that persons information, contact numbers, snd that person will talk to the health department. Now you may be able to tell the people much more quickly and efficiently so if you are willing to they may ask you to.  But that request will always be followed up by the health department wanting to talk to those people to keep tabs on them

 

perhaps if you called the health department back instead of spreading your false beliefs you would have a better understanding of the purpose and process.

Edited November 21, 2020 by sanger727

[boatseller]

8 hours ago, Red-Sol said:

Just for you Sparky:

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vs-flu-deaths-hospitalized-patients.html

 

Don't let facts get in your way....Now if you want to produce your numbers from Fox, or Breitbart or whatever flavor of conspiracy media you like...go for it.

 

TTFN

Or dear, this study says it's only twice as deadly.  So much for 'science'.

 

I will presume you missed the crucial metric missing from both stories which make them irrelevant, admission rate of covid vs Influenza patients.  40% vs 19% of....what exactly.  Influenza will be first treated outside a hospital setting, especially eldercare facilities.

 

Can you describe the financial incentive (perfectly legal, no dispersion there) that can drive higher covid hospital deaths?

[boatseller]

20 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

Your information is 100% false. I do the initial contact tracing for my work place and work closely with our health department because of it.

 

1. the purpose of contact tracing is not to determine where you caught Covid. Completely agree that that can’t be done and frankly wouldn’t be beneficial since the person you caught it from is no longer contagious 

 

2. the purpose of contact tracing is to determine who YOU may have spread it to. And this is essential because there may be several people that you spread it to that are not yet sick or contagious and could quarantine to reduce the likelihood of continuing the spread

 

3. health departments absolutely will contact the people you list of you call them back and have that persons information, contact numbers, snd that person will talk to the health department. Now you may be able to tell the people much more quickly and efficiently so if you are willing to they may ask you to.  But that request will always be followed up by the health department wanting to talk to those people to keep tabs on them

The problem with point 2 is it is dependent on point 1, which you state can't be done.

 

If I've had/will contract the virus, it will be at a theme park or on a cruise.  Contacting all 30,000 guest at Magic Kingdom on any given day is futile.

 

And given the incubation/contagious period, yes, I'll probably already have given it to my sister by the time the county bureaucracy grinds out a call.

[sanger727]

2 minutes ago, boatseller said:

The problem with point 2 is it is dependent on point 1, which you state can't be done.

 

If I've had/will contract the virus, it will be at a theme park or on a cruise.  Contacting all 30,000 guest at Magic Kingdom on any given day is futile.

 

And given the incubation/contagious period, yes, I'll probably already have given it to my sister by the time the county bureaucracy grinds out a call.

that isn’t how contact tracing works. The point isn’t to stop you from spreading the disease to your sister. It’s to stop your sister from spreading it to her coworkers. And it does work if follow up is targeted and occurs quickly. Really, 30,000 people at a theme park? No theme park is allowing 30,000 people in right now and if they did you wouldn’t be in close contact with all of them. However, the guy you at lunch with yesterday and the guy you carpooled with today need to be contacted and followed up with because there’s a significant possibility they were exposed. Yes, the health department is moving slowly these days, because the numbers increased exponentially so quickly. As recently as early October they were doing next day follow ups. They are not now, which is why I am doing it ‘unofficially’ at work. To get people out of the workplace ASAP who have been exposed. But it does and can work and does and can fill a useful purpose.

[mek]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:18 PM, DCGuy64 said:

Isn't it amazing how many people on this website think that their opinion = FACT? If I owned a website where people were allowed to interact like this, I'd make one of the Terms & Conditions that opinions had to be phrased as such, in order to distinguish them from facts, and that failure to do so would result in warnings and, ultimately, a permanent ban. I continue to be amazed how many people can state obvious opinions as though they were incontrovertible facts. Things like "there will be no more cruising for 2020," or "all of the cruise lines will be out of business" or "no one will allow you to cruise without proof of a vaccine." What ridiculous assertions, and yet rarely are they accompanied by a qualifier such as "Maybe I'm wrong about this" or "this is just my opinion." Even if people DO mean that their pronouncements or predictions are solely opinions, HOW ARE WE TO KNOW? Are we just supposed to guess? Of course, we all know that it's highly unlikely that the heads of the major cruise lines are going to take their cues from random people on websites. I'd just say to those who think there will be no cruising without a vaccine, that's news to Tui and MSC that have ferried 1,000s of passengers since August WITHOUT A VACCINE and no outbreaks. I for one am ready to cruise now and although this is just an opinion, (see how that works?) I doubt it will be a requirement for every cruise from here on out.

ROTFLMAO as I read this.  Of course everything that is posted by CC members is just opinions - that includes most of those who are experts - unless they are stating facts/laws/statistics, etc. 

I just love the " we need to police what information gets out to the public" attitude that has been adopted by Facebook, Twitter.......... and apparently by ordinary people.

Most are smart enough to figure all of this out on their own and realize what folks post here are simply opinions, and nothing more.

[boatseller]

30 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

that isn’t how contact tracing works. The point isn’t to stop you from spreading the disease to your sister. It’s to stop your sister from spreading it to her coworkers. And it does work if follow up is targeted and occurs quickly. Really, 30,000 people at a theme park? No theme park is allowing 30,000 people in right now and if they did you wouldn’t be in close contact with all of them. However, the guy you at lunch with yesterday and the guy you carpooled with today need to be contacted and followed up with because there’s a significant possibility they were exposed. Yes, the health department is moving slowly these days, because the numbers increased exponentially so quickly. As recently as early October they were doing next day follow ups. They are not now, which is why I am doing it ‘unofficially’ at work. To get people out of the workplace ASAP who have been exposed. But it does and can work and does and can fill a useful purpose.

Sorry, I frequently assume the other person has a broad understanding of the situation.  Let me be specific.  Yes, 30,000 people.  Walt Disney World publicly stated they were limiting capacity to 25%, now 35%.  While 'secret', the widely held view (based on long term observation and insider info) is that Magic Kingdom has a capacity of a bit over 100,000.  The park has been out of reservations recently, hence the increase, so 30,000 guests in attendance is a reasonable deduction.*

 

I point out with glee that this is a terrific example of why I do 'win' these discussions.  You quickly dismissed my claim yet, you are wrong, I have the numbers.  It's the same with pretty much everything else.  I have no reason lie or fabricate anything.

 

The debate on contact tracing is not really about if it can work, I'm sure there have been some instances of effectiveness.  I share the opinion that it's not worth the effort.  Agencies have been contact tracing since the beginning but to what end?  With the vase majority of spread coming from asymptomatic carriers, tracing efforts are little more than trimming the edges.

 

*This requires understanding the difference between capacity and attendance.

[mek]

21 minutes ago, mek said:

ROTFLMAO as I read this.  Of course everything that is posted by CC members is just opinions - that includes most of those who are experts - unless they are stating facts/laws/statistics, etc. 

I just love the " we need to police what information gets out to the public" attitude that has been adopted by Facebook, Twitter.......... and apparently by ordinary people.

Most are smart enough to figure all of this out on their own and realize what folks post here are simply opinions, and nothing more.

edit - to published facts/laws/statistics

[Outerdog]

Seems an appropriate reminder:

 

Do not argue with a stupid people. They will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

 

Also remember that no one on Cruise Critic, dare I say nearly any internet forum, has changed their views on Covid because of what they've read on the forum. You will never see a post that says "damn, I was wrong and you're right about that.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Outerdog

[sanger727]

12 hours ago, boatseller said:

Sorry, I frequently assume the other person has a broad understanding of the situation.  Let me be specific.  Yes, 30,000 people.  Walt Disney World publicly stated they were limiting capacity to 25%, now 35%.  While 'secret', the widely held view (based on long term observation and insider info) is that Magic Kingdom has a capacity of a bit over 100,000.  The park has been out of reservations recently, hence the increase, so 30,000 guests in attendance is a reasonable deduction.*

 

I point out with glee that this is a terrific example of why I do 'win' these discussions.  You quickly dismissed my claim yet, you are wrong, I have the numbers.  It's the same with pretty much everything else.  I have no reason lie or fabricate anything.

 

The debate on contact tracing is not really about if it can work, I'm sure there have been some instances of effectiveness.  I share the opinion that it's not worth the effort.  Agencies have been contact tracing since the beginning but to what end?  With the vase majority of spread coming from asymptomatic carriers, tracing efforts are little more than trimming the edges.

 

*This requires understanding the difference between capacity and attendance.

And yet you still don’t understand contact tracing AT ALL since you think all 30,000 people would be close contacts and they aren’t. But go ahead and believe you are the smartest person in the room and know everything. I actually do contact tracing to a degree and do know what I’m talking about.

[All-ready2cruise]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

And yet you still don’t understand contact tracing AT ALL since you think all 30,000 people would be close contacts and they aren’t. But go ahead and believe you are the smartest person in the room and know everything. I actually do contact tracing to a degree and do know what I’m talking about.

Let it go... they will never agree with those of us who see it differently... Ignore app is the best...

 

Be well, all the best and good luck on your next cruise. Cheers 🥂

Edited November 22, 2020 by All-ready2cruise

[hamrag]

7 hours ago, sanger727 said:

And yet you still don’t understand contact tracing AT ALL since you think all 30,000 people would be close contacts and they aren’t. But go ahead and believe you are the smartest person in the room and know everything. I actually do contact tracing to a degree and do know what I’m talking about.

 

Don't keep flogging the dead horse....it will not 'die'....use the 'ignore' button/app, it's a fantastic option. 😉

[DarkJedi]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:05 AM, tallnthensome said:

The decision to get onto a cruise or into certain ports in regard to the vaccine will be their decision, not yours. The only decision you will make for yourself beforehand is if you get the vaccine or not. The lines will have final say if you get on board, not you. 

You are correct.

 

Just like they did for SARS, MERS, Zika, TB, the flu, smallpox, and a variety of other diseases.

 

What makes you think SARS-2 will be any different?

 

I mean, besides a simple change in the testing metrics changing PCR testing from 40 cycles to 27 cycles to get rid of all the false positives.

 

Meanwhile, again, good luck to everyone who is going to be getting a vaccination from a vaccine that was developed in a rush for cash with zero long term testing done. Normal discovery and research phase for vaccines is 2-5 years, and that is using a known virus. Developing a vaccine in 8 months is not only going to make companies filthy rich, and be damned with side effects.

 

Here is a good article from the recent Zika vaccine issue dated 2016:

https://qz.com/751478/why-it-takes-so-long-to-develop-a-vaccine-against-a-new-epidemic/

 

Oh, we still don't have a working Zika vaccine. Or a SARS or MERS vaccine.

[DCGuy64]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:24 AM, mek said:

edit - to published facts/laws/statistics

The point I was trying to make (and maybe you got it, maybe you didn't) is that it's important to distinguish fact from opinion. A few examples:

1. Washington, DC is the capital of the United States (this is a fact, not an opinion)

2. Domino's makes the best delivery pizza (this is an opinion, not a fact)

3. All sailings from the US of large cruise ships (over 250 pax) have been suspended until the end of 2020 (this is a fact)

4. There will be no more sailings anywhere in the world until 2021 (this is an opinion, but it's stated as though it were a fact)

5. I believe, based on the information regarding COVID-19, that it's unlikely there will be a return to cruising en masse before 2021 (this is an opinion that is stated as an opinion)

 

I've posted before that my wife and I are booked on 2 cruises in 2021 and have been treated to, ahem, "helpful' comments like "you aren't going on those cruises." Is that an opinion? Sure looks like it, only it wasn't phrased as such, it was phrased as though it were a certainty. Do people have the right to make snarky comments and state opinions as thought they were facts? Sure they do. Do I have a right to call them out for doing so? Yup, you better believe it. And I will.

[Formula280SS]

5 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

The point I was trying to make (and maybe you got it, maybe you didn't) is that it's important to distinguish fact from opinion. A few examples:

1. Washington, DC is the capital of the United States (this is a fact, not an opinion)

2. Domino's makes the best delivery pizza (this is an opinion, not a fact)

3. All sailings from the US of large cruise ships (over 250 pax) have been suspended until the end of 2020 (this is a fact)

4. There will be no more sailings anywhere in the world until 2021 (this is an opinion, but it's stated as though it were a fact)

5. I believe, based on the information regarding COVID-19, that it's unlikely there will be a return to cruising en masse before 2021 (this is an opinion that is stated as an opinion)

 

I've posted before that my wife and I are booked on 2 cruises in 2021 and have been treated to, ahem, "helpful' comments like "you aren't going on those cruises." Is that an opinion? Sure looks like it, only it wasn't phrased as such, it was phrased as though it were a certainty. Do people have the right to make snarky comments and state opinions as thought they were facts? Sure they do. Do I have a right to call them out for doing so? Yup, you better believe it. And I will.

 

Yep, it is hard to bridge anything in this discussion.  Seriously, the experts track record at this current point is almost as meaningless as opinion.  That is not really a knock either, IMO they honestly don't have the science down as how this virus spreads.

 

Just a month ago the experts, and the adorning acolytes in the media, and in certain governance jurisdictions, praised one country versus others, one state versus others, etc. for the implemented response (to close and lock down versus to not).

 

Yet, look at Florida (essentially and comparatively open) and New York (essentially and comparatively closed) with one response favored by the above-mentioned cabal; current data simply doesn't support any such claim.

 

Absolute data in first image, per million data in second.

 

 

[knight2096]

On 11/16/2020 at 10:43 AM, oracer said:

You should not be allowed on a cruise ship UNTIL you have been tested and UNTIL you have proof of having taken the vaccine.   Also cruise ships should not be allowed to port unless they have a private island and all workers on that island have the same standards.   I can not see going to an island (Caribbean) unless they have the same standards, even escorted excursions.

 

I think the Barbados cruise ship showed that testing alone doesn't work.

I'm glad you are not in charge of cruising.

[Shipof6Fools]

As far as canceling Thanksgiving goes. Let people make up their own minds as "adults" on whether they want to cancel their family get together. It drives me crazy when some busy body "cancels" Thanksgiving for everyone. The average age of death from this virus is 78 which is about the average lifespan of Americans. My elderly relatives are more than smart enough to make their own decisions on whether they want to come to my house for turkey. If they do not I respect that, but I will still hold Thanksgiving for the rest of the family.

[MrsKC08]

On 11/21/2020 at 5:41 AM, sanger727 said:

Your information is 100% false. I do the initial contact tracing for my work place and work closely with our health department because of it.

 

1. the purpose of contact tracing is not to determine where you caught Covid. Completely agree that that can’t be done and frankly wouldn’t be beneficial since the person you caught it from is no longer contagious 

 

2. the purpose of contact tracing is to determine who YOU may have spread it to. And this is essential because there may be several people that you spread it to that are not yet sick or contagious and could quarantine to reduce the likelihood of continuing the spread

 

3. health departments absolutely will contact the people you list of you call them back and have that persons information, contact numbers, snd that person will talk to the health department. Now you may be able to tell the people much more quickly and efficiently so if you are willing to they may ask you to.  But that request will always be followed up by the health department wanting to talk to those people to keep tabs on them

 

perhaps if you called the health department back instead of spreading your false beliefs you would have a better understanding of the purpose and process.

Sorry my dear....my information is not 100% false. 😉 But if that is what makes you feel better that you know EXACTLY how the contract tracing works. I have friends who do this as well, and I have been informed, not only from them but also my doctor...who by the way insisted and still insists that the last test that showed positive was in all certainty...a false positive test! Do you not think that the majority of people who tested positive have not contacted those they feel they have been in contact with? I know everyone that we are related to, work with or are friends with have all let us know when they either came into contact with someone who might have got the virus or they themselves tested positive. As you mentioned, they can do a much better job letting those people know that the health department that already has enough issues of their own.

My brother in law, who works for a hospital in Hilton Head has been on top of this throughout this pandemic and there is a lot of interesting information that SHOULD be shared with the masses, but it is not. Main stream media has been in control of what you know about this virus. Unfortunately, not many people are smart enough or maybe they have no desire to do their own thinking and their own research. Do you realize that you are only contagious with this virus for 48 hours. I know I didn't...until I spoke with someone who works at Vanderbilt childrens hospital, and then did my own research because I couldn't believe that to be the case, since we have been told for months that we need to quarantine for 14 days or so. 

 

I find it absolutely amazing that there are people wanting to rush to get a vaccine (essentially a flu shot) that is only 95% effective for a virus that has a 99% survival rate! Pfizer and Moderna were both given 2 BILLION dollars by the government to develop something in record time, which shows you just how big pharma and government has jumped into bed at the expense of the American taxpayer.

[sanger727]

5 minutes ago, MrsKC08 said:

 

I find it absolutely amazing that there are people wanting to rush to get a vaccine (essentially a flu shot) that is only 95% effective for a virus that has a 99% survival rate! 

 

I now realize you are a troll.  There's no need to continuing with a ridiculous argument. Bye.

[hoops71]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

 

I now realize you are a troll.  There's no need to continuing with a ridiculous argument. Bye.

Don't worry I stopped responding to her towards the beginning of this thread when she responding to my post comparing the situation to measles and mumps vaccinations in school, by stating that  "COVID-19 is a virus and mumps and measles were a disease".  I pointed out the obvious.  Mumps, measles and polio are also caused by viruses. Crickets.... Hasn't stopped her for one moment, trying to "educate" us. 

[DCGuy64]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

I now realize you are a troll.  There's no need to continuing with a ridiculous argument. Bye.

Just a reminder that disagreeing with people on Cruise Critic is not against the rules, but name calling is. There was no need for that first sentence.

My wife and I are visiting my extended family for Thanksgiving, because we live about 13 hours away from them and thus don't get to see them very often. We will be wearing masks and spending more time outside to protect ourselves. My father's friend had COVID a few weeks ago (they are both in their 80s) and are fine. My father didn't even have a single symptom. We take the virus seriously but are also able to decide for ourselves whether to travel and be with family. There will be a maximum of 11 people at our gathering, and neither the state where we live nor the one we'll visit have rules on groups that small.

Edited November 24, 2020 by DCGuy64
Additional information

[MrsKC08]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

I now realize you are a troll.  There's no need to continuing with a ridiculous argument. Bye.

Haha. No, I'm not a troll. I might disagree with you, but that doesn't make me a troll. But goodbye and have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

1 hour ago, hoops71 said:

Don't worry I stopped responding to her towards the beginning of this thread when she responding to my post comparing the situation to measles and mumps vaccinations in school, by stating that  "COVID-19 is a virus and mumps and measles were a disease".  I pointed out the obvious.  Mumps, measles and polio are also caused by viruses. Crickets.... Hasn't stopped her for one moment, trying to "educate" us. 

Welcome to CC, I see this is your 4th post in our community. Just because I didn't think your post to me warranted a comment, doesn't mean there are Crickets. I also never said that Mumps and Measles weren't a virus. I simply stated that comparing them with Covid is ridiculous. The one link between the 3 is that the MMR vaccine can help with Covid. You obviously missed the point I was making in that original statement, which was all of those had much higher mortality rates prior to their studies and the vaccines, which...by the way took YEARS before they were tested enough to be distributed.

[electro]

 

On 11/16/2020 at 12:43 PM, hoops71 said:

I don't understand.  Why is proof of vaccination (once widely available) so shocking or outrageous?  We require this proof in schools for mumps, measles, etc.  I won't choose to live in fear either.  But why is this public health requirement so abhorrent?

 

On 11/16/2020 at 1:37 PM, MrsKC08 said:

Here is the thing. This is a virus, not a disease.  Putting Covid in the same category as Mumps/Measles is ludacris. 

 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, MrsKC08 said:

 

I also never said that Mumps and Measles weren't a virus. I simply stated that comparing them with Covid is ridiculous. The one link between the 3 is that the MMR vaccine can help with Covid. You obviously missed the point I was making in that original statement, which was all of those had much higher mortality rates prior to their studies and the vaccines, which...by the way took YEARS before they were tested enough to be distributed.

Bolding is mine.

 

It certainly looks like you , at a minimum, implied that Mumps and measles are not viruses.

 

[BermudaBound2014]

Looks like Quantas is going to be the first to require a vaccine before you can fly. Cruise ships next? 
 

"I think that's going to be a common thing talking to my colleagues in other airlines around the globe," he said.
 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55048438