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Will vaccines now be required?


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3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

1. I'm concerned that if masks are still in place it won't be just "masks". It will be the covid testing, the cruise ship shore excursions only, the masks, reduced occupancy in restaurants and bars (potentially leading to longer waits), the quarantined the whole ship if there is one positive case onboard, etc. That whole package is not something I'm willing to sign up for.

 

2. I almost always take the stairs on the cruise ship. And I do notice at work that I get a bit winded taking the stairs at work with my mask on

 

3. My husband hates wearing a mask so he will do it but will complain the whole time. Again would detract from me enjoying my vacation

 

4. fogs up sunglasses

 

5. Get hotter and sweatier more quickly with a mask on

 

6. Don't really want to return home with a bunch of photos of me and my family masked up instead of being able to see out faces

 

7. The frustration I constantly feel going out in public when I am following the mask rules and others aren't - either not wearing one at all, wearing it as a chin strap or hanging off their ear, or with their nose uncovered. I don't think it will be any different on a cruise ship.

 

8. I usually walk around most of the time with some sort of drink in my hand. I get dry mouth and sip water frequently. So would have to be constantly on/off with the mask or forgo my water drinking.

 

9. air coming out of the top of the mouth tends to dry my eyes out a bit. Not a problem for short periods of time but wouldn't want to wear one all day. 

 

Thanks for answereing. I understand and if you feel that way then I'm sure you will wait till things are back to normal(whatever that will be)before you cruise.  For me, aside from the 1st thing you mention I can deal with the rest if I can cruise.  

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It is just puzzling to me that on these CC threads and in society in general we still have continuous discussions about COVID vs Flu.   A virus competition.  The Super Bowl of Respiratory viruses.  Both are very bad and can infect and kill a lot of people.  Those that think the SARS-CoV-2 is no worse than Influenza virus generally are not paying much attention to the overwhelming data.  But just be patient!  A strain of Influenza could certainly arise at any time that could even be more deadly than COVID.  So best to not justify your actions (or inactions) by trying to prove to everybody that COVID is no worse than Flu.  

 

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1 minute ago, TeeRick said:

It is just puzzling to me that on these CC threads and in society in general we still have continuous discussions about COVID vs Flu.   A virus competition.  The Super Bowl of Respiratory viruses.  Both are very bad and can infect and kill a lot of people.  Those that think the SARS-CoV-2 is no worse than Influenza virus generally are not paying much attention to the overwhelming data.  But just be patient!  A strain of Influenza could certainly arise at any time that could even be more deadly than COVID.  So best to not justify your actions (or inactions) by trying to prove to everybody that COVID is no worse than Flu.  

 

 

This is starting to remind me of holiday meals with my mother and her siblings. At some point in the evening, it inevitably devolved into a game of "my diseases are worse than your diseases". Although I kind of miss those discussions now as only one of the four is still with us, and honestly, even though she's survived, her disease is worse than theirs...

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If wearing a mask is all it takes to get the hell out of this house and go on a cruise or vacation, I will gladly wear it. Being in a few high risk catagories, I'll probably wear it the rest of my life anyway. It's become second nature, like putting on my seatbelt.  We're cruising in August (hopefully) so should be vaccinated by then, but that is no guarantee since at this point we really don't know how effective it will be long term. I've survived a lot of stuff in my life and I'm not going to get taken out because of ignoring sound medical advice. Just wear the damn mask. 

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12 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

1. I'm concerned that if masks are still in place it won't be just "masks". It will be the covid testing, the cruise ship shore excursions only, the masks, reduced occupancy in restaurants and bars (potentially leading to longer waits), the quarantined the whole ship if there is one positive case onboard, etc. That whole package is not something I'm willing to sign up for.

 

2. I almost always take the stairs on the cruise ship. And I do notice at work that I get a bit winded taking the stairs at work with my mask on

 

3. My husband hates wearing a mask so he will do it but will complain the whole time. Again would detract from me enjoying my vacation

 

4. fogs up sunglasses

 

5. Get hotter and sweatier more quickly with a mask on

 

6. Don't really want to return home with a bunch of photos of me and my family masked up instead of being able to see out faces

 

7. The frustration I constantly feel going out in public when I am following the mask rules and others aren't - either not wearing one at all, wearing it as a chin strap or hanging off their ear, or with their nose uncovered. I don't think it will be any different on a cruise ship.

 

8. I usually walk around most of the time with some sort of drink in my hand. I get dry mouth and sip water frequently. So would have to be constantly on/off with the mask or forgo my water drinking.

 

9. air coming out of the top of the mouth tends to dry my eyes out a bit. Not a problem for short periods of time but wouldn't want to wear one all day. 

Pretty easy solution to the horrendous suffering you and your DH would endure on a cruise, DON'T!!

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7 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Pretty easy solution to the horrendous suffering you and your DH would endure on a cruise, DON'T!!


huh? I stated this by saying that we have no intention of cruising right now. 
 

I understand there are many cruisers that are fine with mask wearing and the other Covid requirements that may come along with it. But some aren’t. And there’s nothing wrong with that. As the vaccine approaches I am still holding out hope that the old normal could return by 2022. If by 2022 it appears that the old normal isn’t going to return I may re-evaluate this.  But not cruising for 2 years isn’t a major issue for me. We went to Mexico last month and had a wonderful time. Only needed to wear masks on the plane and everything in the resort was ‘back to normal.’ There are plenty of vacation options besides cruising to hold us over a couple years...

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21 hours ago, sanger727 said:

1. I'm concerned that if masks are still in place it won't be just "masks". It will be the covid testing, the cruise ship shore excursions only, the masks, reduced occupancy in restaurants and bars (potentially leading to longer waits), the quarantined the whole ship if there is one positive case onboard, etc. That whole package is not something I'm willing to sign up for.

 

I really don't find the rest of you concerns to be a problem for me, but you do identify one of my concerns.  Personally, I won't cruise until I'm vaccinated.  I judge the risk to be too great for me at this point  in the crisis.  However I am concerned about what happens if unvaccinated people are allowed to cruise and get infected during the cruise and I am concerned about those people potentially infecting others at the ports we visit.  I don't see any way we will be allowed to roam about the port cities freely unless the cruise lines can assure those countries we won't infect the destinations.  I think the best course of action will be for cruise lines to require people to be vaccinated and continue with pre-boarding Covid testing until the virus really subsides.

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@nomad098 I can’t say that I agree with much of your postings. I will say this however.............

It is a fundamental obligation of a government in a democracy to serve and protect its citizens. When such a government receives advice from its public health medical professionals, it needs to pay heed to that advice. All the information I have read or heard to date is to the effect that the medical advice being offered is that the vaccine is safe and effective and needs to be administered to as much of the adult population as is possible.

I guess that gets us to how the government implements that advice.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the government offering inducements to increase the uptake. I certainly don’t see that as being coercive, but rather as inducive.

I guess, what I’m trying to say is that the matter is very subjective and what I see as reasonable, then another will see as unreasonable.

I would also go further and say the any government that disregards the advice from its public health medical professionals is likely to find itself in opposition before too long.

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1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Personally, I won't cruise until I'm vaccinated.  I judge the risk to be too great for me at this point  in the crisis.  However I am concerned about what happens if unvaccinated people are allowed to cruise and get infected during the cruise and I am concerned about those people potentially infecting others at the ports we visit.  I don't see any way we will be allowed to roam about the port cities freely unless the cruise lines can assure those countries we won't infect the destinations.  I think the best course of action will be for cruise lines to require people to be vaccinated and continue with pre-boarding Covid testing until the virus really subsides.

 

I would agree with your concerns in regards to others if it is proved that the vaccine stops transmission, until that can be proved and it probably will be one way or another during the mass vaccine rollout over the next few months.

 

If a vaccinated person can catch and transmit the disease even in a reduced capacity they still pose a risk to those who can not be vaccinated or live in places a vaccine has not been rolled out. At this point it's about the vaccines ability to reduce harm in you and not so much about protecting others. Even with a negative test because of the inaccuracies false negatives around 30 to 50 percent the last report showed you could still be a risk to others

 

If a vaccinated person can not transmit the disease then the vaccine is not only about protecting you but also about protecting everyone else. Even with a positive test you would not be a risk to anyone.

 

The problem with mass testing it has been proven to not be as good as we wish it would be.

 

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36 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

I would agree with your concerns in regards to others if it is proved that the vaccine stops transmission, until that can be proved and it probably will be one way or another during the mass vaccine rollout over the next few months.

 

If a vaccinated person can catch and transmit the disease even in a reduced capacity they still pose a risk to those who can not be vaccinated or live in places a vaccine has not been rolled out. At this point it's about the vaccines ability to reduce harm in you and not so much about protecting others. Even with a negative test because of the inaccuracies false negatives around 30 to 50 percent the last report showed you could still be a risk to others

 

If a vaccinated person can not transmit the disease then the vaccine is not only about protecting you but also about protecting everyone else. Even with a positive test you would not be a risk to anyone.

 

The problem with mass testing it has been proven to not be as good as we wish it would be.

 

 

I understand your concern and although it is theoretically possible for the vaccinated person to transmit the virus, I'm not sure that I hear a lot of concern about that question.    I thought that the viral load of the vaccinated person will be so low that transmission will likely be ineffective.  But you are correct we'll know more in the coming months.

 

However that does not reduce the desire to have the entire ship be vaccinated.  Having everyone vaccinated will nearly eliminate the possibility that a Covid positive passenger would disrupt the cruise.  So, cruises could still resume with all passengers and crew being vaccinated but still require escorted excursions.  The question will then move to all of ports as to what level of risk that they are willing to accept.  There will likely be some risk of Covid infection for years to come.

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35 minutes ago, zanderblue said:

@nomad098 I can’t say that I agree with much of your postings. I will say this however.............

It is a fundamental obligation of a government in a democracy to serve and protect its citizens. When such a government receives advice from its public health medical professionals, it needs to pay heed to that advice. All the information I have read or heard to date is to the effect that the medical advice being offered is that the vaccine is safe and effective and needs to be administered to as much of the adult population as is possible.

I guess that gets us to how the government implements that advice.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the government offering inducements to increase the uptake. I certainly don’t see that as being coercive, but rather as inducive.

I guess, what I’m trying to say is that the matter is very subjective and what I see as reasonable, then another will see as unreasonable.

I would also go further and say the any government that disregards the advice from its public health medical professionals is likely to find itself in opposition before too long.

 

I don't agree with some posts on here but a accept that some have validity even if I disagree and others have changed my view 

 

The problem as I see it at the moment, Government takes the advice of the public health professionals great, however if other scientists or public health professionals propose a different view they are automatically shouted down with no chance of discourse. Even the really bad information should be held up to scrutiny and shown to be wrong not just dismissed.  

 

There is one singular narrative and if the Government deviate from that narrative set by SAGE and public health professionals they have been quick to release information that undermines the UK Government, this has not been the case in Scotland or Wales where Government and public health  professionals have been on the same page, however they have introduced policies that many have questioned and in Wales they have failed to produce coherent scientific evidence.

 

SAGE have been very shy about releasing the information they base their decisions on to outside scientists but some of the information they have released was proven to be wildly inaccurate.

 

There have been quite a few drugs, treatments and vaccines that have had to be recalled after phase III trials after being confirmed as safe and effective by regulatory bodies. Even safe vaccines have had to recalled due to manufacturing and quality errors. Look at the situation now in South Korea with the flu jab no concrete evidence but there are concerns especially when you consider they threw millions of jabs away due to issues with temperature storage.  

 

Professor Van Tam a top public health professional stated in an interview that until data was in for phase 1 rollout a decision has not been made about phase 2 rollout to the under 50's this is a sound scientific principle in a population study, how many people are being told they are part of a population study?

 

No scientist or public health medical professionals will truly know how safe and effective a vaccine will be until a population size study is underway.

 

How do you think the Government of Scotland would feel if the UK Government offered them £10,000 to vote no in a Scottish referendum after all it's only inducive to a more harmonious UK. This is why I don't agree with coercion and inducements. Facts are the answer to prove to the Scottish people they are better in the UK than out of it.

 

If governments want to increase the uptake of the vaccine they should use proven facts and evidence to encourage people. 

 

  

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5 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I really don't find the rest of you concerns to be a problem for me, but you do identify one of my concerns.  Personally, I won't cruise until I'm vaccinated.  I judge the risk to be too great for me at this point  in the crisis.  However I am concerned about what happens if unvaccinated people are allowed to cruise and get infected during the cruise and I am concerned about those people potentially infecting others at the ports we visit.  I don't see any way we will be allowed to roam about the port cities freely unless the cruise lines can assure those countries we won't infect the destinations.  I think the best course of action will be for cruise lines to require people to be vaccinated and continue with pre-boarding Covid testing until the virus really subsides.

Totally agree! Get the vaccine, Get tested, Get on the ship, Get in line behind me at the bar. I'll be the one bootlegging plastic straws (kidding).

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1 hour ago, diamondintn said:

Totally agree! Get the vaccine, Get tested, Get on the ship, Get in line behind me at the bar. I'll be the one bootlegging plastic straws (kidding).

 

You don't need to bring the plastic straws, I'll have enough for both of us.

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8 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

So, cruises could still resume with all passengers and crew being vaccinated but still require escorted excursions.  The question will then move to all of ports as to what level of risk that they are willing to accept.  There will likely be some risk of Covid infection for years to come.

 

Right .. so .. gut check:  Even granting the uncertainties and the pros and cons and fears and upsets ... and granting that there will remain some non-zero risk of getting coronavirus infection and getting COVID for a while (as you note) ... what's a seat of the pants prediction as to when we can expect not just some cruises but some amount of free port time and some opening up the cruise experience?  If the vaccines start rolling out now / soonish, with all the issues that some have already taken the time to spell out, do we think that there will be not just some cruises, but a liberalization of the cruising experience some, starting in 6 months (probably too soon), 5 years (probably too late), 1 year (possible but perhaps still too optimistic)?  What are some non-herperbolic, non-pollyana-ish, non-doomsday-ish, sober predictions?

 

- Joel

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13 hours ago, sanger727 said:


huh? I stated this by saying that we have no intention of cruising right now. 
 

I understand there are many cruisers that are fine with mask wearing and the other Covid requirements that may come along with it. But some aren’t. And there’s nothing wrong with that. As the vaccine approaches I am still holding out hope that the old normal could return by 2022. If by 2022 it appears that the old normal isn’t going to return I may re-evaluate this.  But not cruising for 2 years isn’t a major issue for me. We went to Mexico last month and had a wonderful time. Only needed to wear masks on the plane and everything in the resort was ‘back to normal.’ There are plenty of vacation options besides cruising to hold us over a couple years...

Your life; your decisions.  But I have to say that in Mexico everything is anything but normal.  They may have acted like normal, in the sense of no Covid precautions, but Mexico itself is a very dangerous place, Covid-wise.  To think they disregarded protective practices is even more disturbing.  I'm glad for you that you came back healthy.  For me, I would rather go on a cruise taking a lot of precautions than stay at a resort where they are apparently taking none.

 

COVID-19 in Mexico - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC

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43 minutes ago, cl.klink said:

 

Right .. so .. gut check:  Even granting the uncertainties and the pros and cons and fears and upsets ... and granting that there will remain some non-zero risk of getting coronavirus infection and getting COVID for a while (as you note) ... what's a seat of the pants prediction as to when we can expect not just some cruises but some amount of free port time and some opening up the cruise experience?  If the vaccines start rolling out now / soonish, with all the issues that some have already taken the time to spell out, do we think that there will be not just some cruises, but a liberalization of the cruising experience some, starting in 6 months (probably too soon), 5 years (probably too late), 1 year (possible but perhaps still too optimistic)?  What are some non-herperbolic, non-pollyana-ish, non-doomsday-ish, sober predictions?

 

- Joel

 

Ok, here's my perspective. I'm assuming that I will be vaccinated by Spring 2021.  This will be from the perspective of a US passenger.  I don't see  Northern European, Mediterranean.  Asian,  South American or South Pacific in the reasonable range of options for me in 2021.  If I'm going on any of these cruises I will spend some time pre-cruise or post cruise in these regions and I don't see these areas being anything close to back to normal in 2021.  I think there will still be lockdowns, quarantines and restricted travel in these regions.  I want to get off the ship and explore on my own and I think international travel will be restricted through 2021.  I do see the Caribbean opening up in 2021 and even if the region doesn't open in 2021 for unescorted tours, I'm ok just staying on the ship in the Caribbean.  I may take a shorter 7-day cruise before  November 2021, but I'll be booking a longer 10 -12 day cruise in November.

 

So that's my plan. 🙂

Edited by ipeeinthepool
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2 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Ok, here's my perspective. This will be from the perspective of a US passenger.  I don't see  Northern European, Mediterranean.  Asian,  South American or South Pacific in the reasonable range of options for me in 2021.  If I'm going on any of these cruises I will spend some time pre-cruise or post cruise in these regions and I don't see these areas being anything close to back to normal in 2021.  I think there will still be lockdowns, quarantines and restricted travel in these regions.  I want to get off the ship and explore on my own and I think international travel will be restricted through 2021.  I do see the Caribbean opening up in 2021 and even if the region doesn't open in 2021 for unescorted tours, I'm ok just staying on the ship in the Caribbean.  I may take a shorter 7-day cruise before  November 2021, but I'll be booking a longer 10 -12 day cruise in November.

 

So that's my plan. 🙂

 

Good to know your thoughts.  Thanks,

 

- Joel

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34 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

Your life; your decisions.  But I have to say that in Mexico everything is anything but normal.  They may have acted like normal, in the sense of no Covid precautions, but Mexico itself is a very dangerous place, Covid-wise.  To think they disregarded protective practices is even more disturbing.  I'm glad for you that you came back healthy.  For me, I would rather go on a cruise taking a lot of precautions than stay at a resort where they are apparently taking none.

 

COVID-19 in Mexico - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC


really??? Is anywhere ‘normal’ right now? Of course not. I made the decision that was right for me given the situation I’m in right now. My state is out of control with Covid. My county is red verging on purple. My coworkers that I’m around all day every day are coming down with Covid left and right. In my judgement, a vacation where I spent 90% of my time outside and separated from everyone else was no more danger than being stuck in a building all day where in the last week, 3 people I see regularly (1 I share an office with) caught Covid. Life isn’t safe right now. I agree that if I was able to sit at home and work from home and barely venture out that a trip to Mexico would have been a high risk activity. My life is a high risk activity right now. Less worried about it.

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37 minutes ago, sanger727 said:


really??? Is anywhere ‘normal’ right now? Of course not. I made the decision that was right for me given the situation I’m in right now. My state is out of control with Covid. My county is red verging on purple. My coworkers that I’m around all day every day are coming down with Covid left and right. In my judgement, a vacation where I spent 90% of my time outside and separated from everyone else was no more danger than being stuck in a building all day where in the last week, 3 people I see regularly (1 I share an office with) caught Covid. Life isn’t safe right now. I agree that if I was able to sit at home and work from home and barely venture out that a trip to Mexico would have been a high risk activity. My life is a high risk activity right now. Less worried about it.

Sounds like you took all the right precautions on your vacation!  Would I have done that no, but that is just me, not a judgment in any way shape or form.  I am fortunate that I can work from home 100% of the time, have been doing so for 9 months now and will be for the foreseeable future.  I do have to ask though, your company has you share an office with another individual???  That is just not right to me.  

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1 hour ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Ok, here's my perspective. I'm assuming that I will be vaccinated by Spring 2021.  This will be from the perspective of a US passenger.  I don't see  Northern European, Mediterranean.  Asian,  South American or South Pacific in the reasonable range of options for me in 2021.  If I'm going on any of these cruises I will spend some time pre-cruise or post cruise in these regions and I don't see these areas being anything close to back to normal in 2021.  I think there will still be lockdowns, quarantines and restricted travel in these regions.  I want to get off the ship and explore on my own and I think international travel will be restricted through 2021.  I do see the Caribbean opening up in 2021 and even if the region doesn't open in 2021 for unescorted tours, I'm ok just staying on the ship in the Caribbean.  I may take a shorter 7-day cruise before  November 2021, but I'll be booking a longer 10 -12 day cruise in November.

 

So that's my plan. 🙂

I hope you  are right, pee. I have a 10 night ultimate Caribbean that I lifted and shifted to late in March 2022. You gotta go too, you owe me a plastic straw!

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2 hours ago, cl.klink said:

 

Right .. so .. gut check:  Even granting the uncertainties and the pros and cons and fears and upsets ... and granting that there will remain some non-zero risk of getting coronavirus infection and getting COVID for a while (as you note) ... what's a seat of the pants prediction as to when we can expect not just some cruises but some amount of free port time and some opening up the cruise experience?  If the vaccines start rolling out now / soonish, with all the issues that some have already taken the time to spell out, do we think that there will be not just some cruises, but a liberalization of the cruising experience some, starting in 6 months (probably too soon), 5 years (probably too late), 1 year (possible but perhaps still too optimistic)?  What are some non-herperbolic, non-pollyana-ish, non-doomsday-ish, sober predictions?

 

- Joel

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

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2 minutes ago, Ozzmund said:

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

I am with you!  Have an Aug 28 2021 booked, Greek Isles, Turkey, Barcelona, I sorta kinda think it will sail, but if it does, most likely with the CC excursions only.  Just don't want to do that with this itinerary, so so much more we can see and learn on our own.

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48 minutes ago, Ozzmund said:

For us, early Summer of 2022 would be our prediction.

There certainly will be cruises before then, but would they be cruises we would want to take? Not sure.

Limiting shore excursions to cruise sponsored offerings is a deal breaker for us.

I hope I am wrong and that things open up earlier, but if I was at a sports book in Las Vegas and had to pick a date, I would pick June 1, 2022

 

Thanks!

- Joel

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On 12/7/2020 at 11:50 AM, TeeRick said:

It is just puzzling to me that on these CC threads and in society in general we still have continuous discussions about COVID vs Flu.   A virus competition.  The Super Bowl of Respiratory viruses.  Both are very bad and can infect and kill a lot of people.  Those that think the SARS-CoV-2 is no worse than Influenza virus generally are not paying much attention to the overwhelming data.  But just be patient!  A strain of Influenza could certainly arise at any time that could even be more deadly than COVID.  So best to not justify your actions (or inactions) by trying to prove to everybody that COVID is no worse than Flu.  

 

Of course if it wasn't a comparison to the flu, it be something else.  It is all just a way for someone to convince themselves that their choice is correct.  If they weren't using the its just the flu comparison it would another just as irrelevant.

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9 minutes ago, nocl said:

Of course if it wasn't a comparison to the flu, it be something else.  It is all just a way for someone to convince themselves that their choice is correct.  If they weren't using the its just the flu comparison it would another just as irrelevant.

I just continue to follow the experts, some on here and others in US lexicon, just hate to say the name of those, it evokes such vitriol, so I will just say, keep up the great work Dr. F and others, we need you!

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