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Will vaccines now be required?


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7 hours ago, J18ktleo said:

wow, thank you for all the intuitive reading, I really appreciate it!

As one of those who says 'I'll wait a couple of years' before I get the vaccine, not even knowing which one will be the one that's good for most and for me, and understanding it might be the end of my world travel I am continually entertained by conversations talking about 'listening to the experts'.

Who are the experts?

Who designated them better experts over others?

How many contradictory statements/writings/rulings should be made before they are no longer considered an expert?

 

What we were told in the spring, when this supposedly started, has changed week by week by week with new information and new guidelines.

And the places with mask MANDATES are still seeing incremental rises in their infection rates so, is that truly a remedy?

First they said 'put on a mask and don't touch it', then they said wear it only outdoors, then indoors too then while you're eating (which means you touch it and touch it and touch it).

They said dining inside is dangerous but outside is ok now it's not.

 

The constant back and forth of information is mind blowing.

And the continual back and forth of data and 'new information' is as well.

 

2 almost fully EUA approved Vaccines and a couple more on the way.  Has anyone heard/read anything about what the differences are? Which one's work for whom?  I know that every single drug introduced has challenges interacting with peoples health and other drugs they might be taking, from everything I'm reading about these vaccines they're all good for everyone?  Although now the Pfizer vaccine isn't good for those with bad asthma issues...

 

Anyways, there's so many angles to this difficult and tragic situation.

I wonder if we can ever feel that we're getting some degree of 'real' information? 🤔

The reasons why the advice evolved is actually pretty simple and pretty logical.

 

At the start nothing was known about this virus. With the lack of information the advice was based upon using other viruses behaviors.  As more was learned, at a very rapid pace, the advice changed to be more specific to this virus. Now there is a lot more known, so it is not surprising that the advice has changed considerably.

 

It is how science works going from the unknown to the known.  There is still a lot more to be learned, so expect future changes as well.

 

 

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10 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Your quite right I failed to make it clear being vaccinated does not make you covid free only a test can do that. Covid free should have been "will want more" and testing should have gone in with logistics.

 

Thinking faster than I can type:classic_blush::classic_blush:

Actually a test cannot even do that.  All a test can say is that there was not detectable virus in the sample.  According to an analysis by John Hopkins, even with PCR the false negative rate for people with symptoms was at best 20%.

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1 hour ago, nocl said:

Actually a test cannot even do that.  All a test can say is that there was not detectable virus in the sample.  According to an analysis by John Hopkins, even with PCR the false negative rate for people with symptoms was at best 20%.

THIS! My sister in law was so glad when my 14 year-old niece tested negative, when my brother, and she were positive, then her 19 year-old was also positive. Since the 14 year-old lives in the same house, my household was sure that her viral load was not yet detectable. Lo and behold, 14 YO started having symptoms a couple of days later, then retested, then was Covid-positive. 

 

This virus will replicate at every chance it is given. It is up to us, as decent humans, to stop giving it so many chances. 

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6 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Do I have to explain the difference between some and all.  what does this mean?  Do you have some medical expertise or just sharing an opinion like 99.9% of other posters here??

 

I said "some" and the member who replied changed the context to "all" thats what that means, it could have been as simple as a typo or a way of getting their point across?

 

Do you really have to have "medical expertise" to pass social commentary on behaviour.

 

Maybe an economics degree to post on a tipping thread or a behavioural degree to comment on a chair hogging thread 

 

No I do not have a medical degree and have never claimed to have had one. But I can read and understand research and like 99.9% of other posters post my opinion. 

 

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4 hours ago, nocl said:

Actually a test cannot even do that.  All a test can say is that there was not detectable virus in the sample.  According to an analysis by John Hopkins, even with PCR the false negative rate for people with symptoms was at best 20%.

 

Interesting court judgement from Portugal in regards to tests. 97% false positives at 35 cycles surely that cannot be right?

https://www.portugalresident.com/judges-in-portugal-highlight-more-than-debatable-reliability-of-covid-tests/

 

Possible bad news for lateral flow tests showing more false negatives

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4744

 

 

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4 hours ago, emmas gran said:

Why are people on this thread getting so argumentative???????????????

 

Its a vaccine people will either get it or not it's a personal choice

 

That's a good question.  People will likely have a choice if they want to be vaccinated.  However that choice may come with consequences.   Schools require vaccinations, some jobs require vaccinations, travel to some parts of the world require vaccinations, etc.  Anyone that doesn't get vaccinated may find that they no longer have the ability to cruise.

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4 hours ago, MamaFej said:

THIS! My sister in law was so glad when my 14 year-old niece tested negative, when my brother, and she were positive, then her 19 year-old was also positive. Since the 14 year-old lives in the same house, my household was sure that her viral load was not yet detectable. Lo and behold, 14 YO started having symptoms a couple of days later, then retested, then was Covid-positive. 

 

This virus will replicate at every chance it is given. It is up to us, as decent humans, to stop giving it so many chances. 

 

Did you have this conversation with your sister?   Does she know how she or her husband got infected?  Before getting infected did you tell her it was up to decent human beings to stop giving the virus so many chances?

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On 12/6/2020 at 6:10 PM, lyndarra said:

From the outside looking in, it seems to me that covers just about everyone in the USA

(My bolding)

Not sure why you would say that.  In no way is "just about everyone" in the USA at risk of severe symptoms or death. These can happen to anyone of course, but by far the deaths from Covid are statistically much higher in nursing homes and similar facilities.  They will be vaccinated first along with front line medical staff.   If you want to change that to severe risk of catching the virus, right now that is the case but will also change as the vaccines begin to be distributed.  Big difference.  

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15 hours ago, cltnccruisers said:

Regarding the comment on how the vaccines may inter-react, that touches a nerve with me.  I take several meds and often wondered how they might interact.  After asking both of my doctors and doing some outside research I was shocked to learn that tracking interaction was the responsibility of the pharmacist!  The best I could do was use a tool from Caremark and enter all my meds for a list of interactions.  I'll likely take a vaccine in early spring when I become eligible but it would at least be nice to know what to look for reaction wise. 

Just keep in mind that every conceivable reaction, interaction, side effect and all else will be closely followed by the regulatory authorities and agencies - just like the two allergic reactions in the UK to the Pfizer vaccine were immediately reported.  These vaccines are under the world microscope.  You will definitely know.  And also keep in mind that the media will report every conceivable thing and some sources will sensationalize everything or spin the truth.  IMO - Just follow your personal doctor's advice if you are concerned about anything at all.

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Our state HHS secretary held a news conference regarding vaccine roll out.  The issue of the cards came up.  She stated they were mainly for a reminder to get the second booster shot.  She also made the excellent suggestion to snap a photo with your phone to make sure you have a copy.

 

They also talked about encouraging the entity doing the vaccination and insurance companies who may be paying for administration (vaccine is free but there can be a fee for the injection service) to utilize their systems for auto reminders for the second dose.

 

There was another question from a reporter about the collection of personal data and it possibly being a deterrent to some parts of the population due to immigration concerns.  It was clear the state has a digital system for tracking but there was no indication it was linked to any universal system.

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10 hours ago, emmas gran said:

Why are people on this thread getting so argumentative???????????????

 

Its a vaccine people will either get it or not it's a personal choice

That’s my feeling. Those that choose not to get it (not everyone will have that choice) know the risks not just to themselves but their loved ones. I’m personally comfortable that people have that choice. I think we would feel more comfortable that everyone boarding who was able to get the vaccine had it but that’s going to be up to others. We will still cruise if it’s not mandatory as while we understand there could be disruption if anyone catches it that has not had the jab we should still be safe ourselves. Hopefully everyone makes an informed decision and we can all move on.

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Maybe I will get the nurse or lab technician to use my phone and take a picture of the vaccine vial with the label and a second picture (or video) of them injecting it into my arm.  And I will have them sign and date my arm and take a picture of the injection site.  I would have my arm notarized but maybe that would hurt with that notary stamp thing.  Hopefully they will use washable ink on my arm too.😀

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2 minutes ago, yorky said:

That’s my feeling. Those that choose not to get it (not everyone will have that choice) know the risks not just to themselves but their loved ones. I’m personally comfortable that people have that choice. I think we would feel more comfortable that everyone boarding who was able to get the vaccine had it but that’s going to be up to others. We will still cruise if it’s not mandatory as while we understand there could be disruption if anyone catches it that has not had the jab we should still be safe ourselves. Hopefully everyone makes an informed decision and we can all move on.

I mostly agree and that will definitely be the case at some point when everybody has had the opportunity to make the choice and be vaccinated or not.  But that point of time is dependent on the doses available and the country.  So even if I am lucky enough to be vaccinated that might not be the case for those still waiting.  

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18 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Maybe I will get the nurse or lab technician to use my phone and take a picture of the vaccine vial with the label and a second picture (or video) of them injecting it into my arm.  And I will have them sign and date my arm and take a picture of the injection site.  I would have my arm notarized but maybe that would hurt with that notary stamp thing.  Hopefully they will use washable ink on my arm too.😀

Maybe you should just have it tattooed. 😉

Edited by C-Dragons
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18 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Maybe I will get the nurse or lab technician to use my phone and take a picture of the vaccine vial with the label and a second picture (or video) of them injecting it into my arm.  And I will have them sign and date my arm and take a picture of the injection site.  I would have my arm notarized but maybe that would hurt with that notary stamp thing.  Hopefully they will use washable ink on my arm too.😀

I'd recommend that you have all relevant information tattooed on your arm. Just be sure to wear a short-sleeved shirt on embarkation day in future. 

 

Oops. Great minds thinking alike again!

Edited by Fouremco
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1 minute ago, C-Dragons said:

Maybe you should just get it tattooed.

Or a branding iron?

Remember the scar we all carried from childhood on our arms from the smallpox vaccine?  Or are you too young for that?

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On 12/6/2020 at 7:12 AM, bouhunter said:

Having to wear them at work and being forced to wear them on a paid vacation are two entirely different things.  Maybe it's REALLY not a big deal to you, but a high percentage of people on cruise critic have said masks are a deal breaker for cruising.  And that is from cruise addicts at a cruise forum.  I do agree, it's likely cruises will be masked up for at least a year.  Question is does that mean from now, or from whenever they finally start sailing..... 😞  

People for whom wearing a mask is a deal breaker simply won't be on the ship.

The problem takes care of itself.

I want to cruise again. I'll wear a mask if that's what it takes.

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11 hours ago, emmas gran said:

Why are people on this thread getting so argumentative???????????????

 

Its a vaccine people will either get it or not it's a personal choice

 

Well, if cruise lines require it for you to be on board, then you'll need to decide if you really want to cruise or not.  Granted, that still an "IF", but I can see it being a requirement if they want to sail again.

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1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Maybe I will get the nurse or lab technician to use my phone and take a picture of the vaccine vial with the label and a second picture (or video) of them injecting it into my arm.  And I will have them sign and date my arm and take a picture of the injection site.  I would have my arm notarized but maybe that would hurt with that notary stamp thing.  Hopefully they will use washable ink on my arm too.😀

I think you're kidding, but who knows?  😉  BTW....The Notary stamp won't hurt...but the price for a notary may.

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16 minutes ago, Oceangoer2 said:

I think you're kidding, but who knows?  😉  BTW....The Notary stamp won't hurt...but the price for a notary may.

My husband’s a notary and loves to cruise - do I sense a business opportunity??! Set him up at the dock or on the curb next to the luggage porters? He will have to get a stamp from the state of Florida... hey, it could happen!

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2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I mostly agree and that will definitely be the case at some point when everybody has had the opportunity to make the choice and be vaccinated or not.  But that point of time is dependent on the doses available and the country.  So even if I am lucky enough to be vaccinated that might not be the case for those still waiting.  

Very true, we look to be in a favourable position in the UK at the moment which may put us in a better position for travel. Personally we won’t be travelling abroad next year anyway, our first foreign holiday will be the Asia cruise in Feb 2022. Hopefully everyone will have been vaccinated by then.

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10 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Interesting court judgement from Portugal in regards to tests. 97% false positives at 35 cycles surely that cannot be right?

https://www.portugalresident.com/judges-in-portugal-highlight-more-than-debatable-reliability-of-covid-tests/

 

Possible bad news for lateral flow tests showing more false negatives

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4744

 

 

Sorry, can’t resist opportunity to talk about the tests.

Lateral flow is just not a great technology, one, and secondly sample type has crucial differences from optimal sample type for PCR. When you read a study comparing lateral flow to PCR, you really have to get in the weeds, to see if proper sampling was done for each. That rarely happens because you need to sample pts with 2 different swabs - who signs up for that? Best case for lateral flow is 90% agreement with PCR - and you only get that in highly symptomatic pts. Real world, all comers with more mild more non-specific symptoms, the agreement is about 80%.

 

As for the Portugal court case, that 97% false positive is asking the question, when do you call something negative. Normally, the lower limit of detection (the LOD) of a PCR test would be determined by comparison to viral culture results and by clinical observations- graphing clinical disease to test results. It’s tricky in PCR because PCR may be more sensitive than culture. When you are talking about quarantining people, perhaps retesting after a couple of days, you might want to observe and retest, even if there is a 97% chance that initial result was falsely positive. In normal clinical practice that would likely be the point at which the lab would just call the test “negative”, even if they were wrong 3 times out of 100.

You can begin to see the problems with asking lab tests to be accurate in a way that they were never designed to be - even a test system as sensitive and specific as PCR, which is accepted as DNA evidence in murder cases! Clinical lab tests are meant to be used as a piece of a diagnostic puzzle by clinicians who have training, experience and context to interpret that result. People, the press, politicians are assuming 100% sensitive and specific, 100% of thectime

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