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Will vaccines now be required?


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22 minutes ago, larry_s_taco said:

If the cruise line decides to start requiring vaccines to cruise the USA would not have anything to do with enforcement. All of the lines are registered in foreign countries. They can decide on whatever they want. It would be a company decision that they can make. 

For cruises anywhere else in the world, that may be true, but cruising to or from US ports subjects the lines to US rules. They must agree with them or they simply won't get permission to visit US ports. 

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8 hours ago, Fouremco said:

For cruises anywhere else in the world, that may be true, but cruising to or from US ports subjects the lines to US rules. They must agree with them or they simply won't get permission to visit US ports. 

 

Free movement of people within the Schengen area is one of the pillars of the EU according to the EU, though some countries have mandatory vaccinations for their own citizens this does not apply to people living there from other countries from within the EU or visitors. All it would take is for one country to veto a proposal for vaccination to travel within the EU and then cruise lines would not be able to make vaccinations mandatory on med cruises. A business regardless of where it is based would not be able to operate within the EU if it was in breach of fundamental EU laws. Free movement of people is one of the overriding principles of the EU and is one of the reasons for BREXIT.  All shipping is subject to EU laws when calling into EU ports, laws were introduced after the Costa Concordia incident. This is why Spain can tax cruise ship passengers for purchases onboard for the whole of a med cruise when embarking from a Spanish port providing it does not call at a port outside the EU.

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16 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Well, that's an interesting spin. The FDA approves it to be injected into millions of residents, albeit under the EUA process, but the surgeon general thinks that it is too experimental to be mandated by employers or businesses. Unfortunately, this will simply create further uncertainty in the minds of many who are already hesitant to get the vaccination.

Fouremco, IMO- None of this really means very much at this point.  It was a press interview and comments.  Some taken out of context.  The vaccines are "experimental" in that they are under an EUA in the US.  It is semantics.  It cannot be mandated if that was even possible in the US until full BLA approval.  But it will not be mandated in the US anyway.  So what does any of this really mean?  Maybe in the far distant future after full approval and a lot of additional long term safety data in children some states will mandate it for public schools and such.  I can see private companies maybe highly recommending a vaccine to employees but not sure they will ever be able to require it as a condition for employment.  The US just does not work this way at all.  That should be obvious after seeing our very divided attitudes and response to the pandemic.  And of course for years a very contentious response toward vaccines.

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On 12/16/2020 at 1:58 PM, Fouremco said:

Well, that's an interesting spin. The FDA approves it to be injected into millions of residents, albeit under the EUA process, but the surgeon general thinks that it is too experimental to be mandated by employers or businesses. Unfortunately, this will simply create further uncertainty in the minds of many who are already hesitant to get the vaccination.

I expect it is more of a matter of the legal cases such a mandate would generate.  There is certainly plenty of case law supporting employers that require approved vaccines.  The question of requiring a vaccine being given under an EUA, compared to full approval, has not yet been tested.

 

The only case I can think of is of a vaccine being required under an EUA was related to the military and there a bit of controversy about it, if I recall correctly.

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14 hours ago, Laurab23 said:

So for those who are very knowledgeable on the vaccines, (TeeRick etc) are you all planning on getting the vaccine?

 

Laura

I am planning to get it as soon as I am am eligible according to the prioritization rules.

 

At this time I am comfortable with either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.  

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14 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Fouremco, IMO- None of this really means very much at this point.  It was a press interview and comments.  Some taken out of context.  The vaccines are "experimental" in that they are under an EUA in the US.  It is semantics.  It cannot be mandated if that was even possible in the US until full BLA approval.  But it will not be mandated in the US anyway.  So what does any of this really mean?  Maybe in the far distant future after full approval and a lot of additional long term safety data in children some states will mandate it for public schools and such.  I can see private companies maybe highly recommending a vaccine to employees but not sure they will ever be able to require it as a condition for employment.  The US just does not work this way at all.  That should be obvious after seeing our very divided attitudes and response to the pandemic.  And of course for years a very contentious response toward vaccines.

There are examples of vaccines being required for employment in the US over the years.

 

The level to which an employer may require vaccines is limited by EEOC depending upon the specific vaccine.  For example with the flu vaccine the EEOC requires that an employer must allow for religious and medical exemptions if they require their employees to be vaccinated.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Laurab23 said:

So for those who are very knowledgeable on the vaccines, (TeeRick etc) are you all planning on getting the vaccine?

 

Laura

Laura- I will be amongst the very first people in line as soon as my priority comes up in my state (PA).  So will my wife.  There is not one bit of hesitancy on my part at all.  The mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are examples of the new age of vaccines.  I have no qualms fully embracing this new technology which is simpler and more straight forward in many ways.  And overall I think it will be proven to be very safe in the long term for the great majority of people of all ages.  But there will be glitches of course and since we are all different genetically and medically a few rare events will happen - as they do with all vaccines- like anaphylaxis.  And the media will grab hold and sensationalize.  But so what.  It will not effect my plans of being vaccinated and being able to resume my traveling and enjoyment of life.

Edited by TeeRick
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8 hours ago, nocl said:

I expect it is more of a matter of the legal cases such a mandate would generate.  There is certainly plenty of case law supporting employers that require approved vaccines.  The question of requiring a vaccine being given under an EUA, compared to full approval, has not yet been tested.

 

The only case I can think of is of a vaccine being required under an EUA was related to the military and there a bit of controversy about it, if I recall correctly.

I guess I wonder what the US and state governments will require for their own government employees beyond military and National Guard?  What about State Police?  What about the staff in VA hospitals facing elderly veterans on a daily basis?  Lots of questions.  But I am thinking private institutions like universities might mandate the vaccine for their on campus students.  Many already do so for vaccines like meningitis.  

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I’ve seen a number of news stories and interviews with legal experts stating that employers in the US can require vaccines because they have an obligation to provide a safe working environment. 

I will not be at all surprised to see legal challenges, however. 

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Pretty simple. A ship,business and/or person can choose to make and enforce rules on private property as they see fit. And you can agree or disagree. Accept or reject the service or product. 

It is all about safety. 

An airline can refuse boarding if someone is deemed a risk. Or removed from a flight for the same reason. Try getting on a plane falling down drunk. 

And every person has the ability to accept the rules or not. If not, then you choose not to participate in that activity. 

Cruising is not a right. It is a privilege. 

I should be allowed to feel safe and protected from potential risks. 

If I am not comfortable with an activity, then I will not participate. 

Every day someone knowingly gets in a vehicle with a drunk driver. And, as sad as it is, they are putting themselves at risk. By choice. 

If there are no rules in place, I will simply cancel my trips. Or perhaps find a destination where rules are in place. 

 

Most cruises stop in multiple countries. And each country will have its own rules. So there will be times where a ship may not be permitted to dock if there are certain restrictions. Or, there will be a requirement for boarding in the first place. Not a rule of the boarding country, but it has to still apply for the entire cruise. 

 

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morechances - you last paragraph is very important. Thank you for highlighting it.

 

The value of a cruise for us, and many, are the destinations. Any restrictions of access will simply eliminate cruising for us. I would arrange land travel and gain access without the entire risk of thousand's of other people impeding me, which frankly is a risk in itself.

 

There is also the issue of prejudice against cruise ships which will likely linger for a long time - the sanctions on cruise ship entry are likely to be more forceful than a single traveler arriving by train or plane.

 

Simply not interested in paying big $ to participate in the complexity that is related to cruise ships.

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I am sure that there are hundreds of posts throughout the boards from people who are angry with a cruise line because a port was canceled. This may be due to weather, illness, civil unrest or many other reasons. 

 

I am one of those people who book a cruise based on a specific port. I was on a cruise a few years ago that I only chose because of a stop in Istanbul. Unfortunately, they canceled the stop due to warnings of civil unrest. 

Another where weather prevented us from docking. And I cruise once a year. So pretty sure there are many people who have a lot more experience with canceled ports.

 

Imagine the captain's daily message......

Good morning guests, as you can see, we are not docked in........ insert location here...... The local authorities would not allow us to dock because the passengers in cabin 1130 were not vaccinated. So, the rest of you 1998 passengers have to suffer because of 2 anti-vaxers.

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8 minutes ago, larry_s_taco said:

Be careful when traveling independently. I saw an article today about an 18 year old on spring brake in Grand Caymen who received  4 month prison sentence for ignoring the Covid mandates.

Ignoring the rules..... has nothing to do with traveling independently. Simply means that the person was stupid, and Ignored the local rules. They deserve it!!!!

 

But, yes, this is another example of how the rules differ from one place to the next. 

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6 minutes ago, morechances said:

Ignoring the rules..... has nothing to do with traveling independently. Simply means that the person was stupid, and Ignored the local rules. They deserve it!!!!

 

But, yes, this is another example of how the rules differ from one place to the next. 

Not only do the rules differ, but the extent of the punishment when in breach of the rules. While I support the initiatives of the Cayman Islands in combatting COVID-19, the punishment in this case was overly severe IMO.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Not only do the rules differ, but the extent of the punishment when in breach of the rules. While I support the initiatives of the Cayman Islands in combatting COVID-19, the punishment in this case was overly severe IMO.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

On the surface, it does appear extreme. 

But an extreme should deter people from doing something. 

 

The Caymans are built on 2 industries, finance and tourism. 

Covid is killing both.

 

As well, if someone spreads THE VIRUS, and it overwhelmed the few local hospitals, it would have dire consequences for everyone on the island. 

 

A $10 fine, as opposed to jail time would not have an effect. Yes, 2 extremes, but simply an example. 

 

 

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On 12/18/2020 at 10:00 AM, TeeRick said:

I guess I wonder what the US and state governments will require for their own government employees beyond military and National Guard?  What about State Police?  What about the staff in VA hospitals facing elderly veterans on a daily basis?  Lots of questions.  But I am thinking private institutions like universities might mandate the vaccine for their on campus students.  Many already do so for vaccines like meningitis.  

Hi Rick, found this article about refusing the vaccine on the healthcare industry, really interesting and raises some good questions at the end. BTW, my husband was vaccinated two days ago and is feeling fine.  I hope to get mine soon. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/942296

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On 12/18/2020 at 9:40 AM, MamaFej said:

I’ve seen a number of news stories and interviews with legal experts stating that employers in the US can require vaccines because they have an obligation to provide a safe working environment. 

I will not be at all surprised to see legal challenges, however. 

Already challenged and adjudicated in some states for private business.  Vaccination can be required if accomodation cannot be easily accomplished.  Working 100% remotely is about the only one that was accepted for measles and meningitis.  It is a low standard and the obligation is on the employee.  State and Federal employees and contractors working on site will clearly be subject to Federal rules.

For travel can be added to passports similar to other vaccinations already required for some countries.  And for those that will argue about everything - yes it is possible to fake proof of vaccinations.  Any document can be forged.

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1 hour ago, drarill said:

Hi Rick, found this article about refusing the vaccine on the healthcare industry, really interesting and raises some good questions at the end. BTW, my husband was vaccinated two days ago and is feeling fine.  I hope to get mine soon. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/942296

Drarill - sadly the website requires registration. 😞

A summary would be interesting.

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Thanks for the article.  I am not sure how often (at least right now with the surge) the front line HC workers will refuse to be vaccinated.  But surely that will happen and probably has already happened.  The vaccines are a life saving gift for most of us but some will not agree for whatever their reasons are.  But then that would be the expected in a free society and their will be corresponding laws and court rulings and lawsuits and mandates and protests and in general a mess.  But I will still get my vaccine even if others don't want it.  Step aside for those of us who do!

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