Article on impressive Roman ruins OUTSIDE Italy

[cruisemom42]

Just something to dream about for future travels...

 

I've visited many of these sites by cruise ship over the last decade. It will be great when I can get back to completing my bucket list. I suspect Pula (Croatia) will be next. Only a few of the smaller cruise ships stop in Pula itself, but it can also be reached on a day trip from Koper.

 

https://www.fodors.com/news/photos/before-the-fall-10-ancient-roman-sites-outside-of-italy

 

[bennybear]

Thanks for sharing.   We were very struck with some mosaics we saw in a small German town near Trier,  on an ordinary street, in a back yard quite recently discovered.  

[dogs4fun]

Thanks for the link. There are a few sites listed that I would love to visit but cannot due to political situations and safety concerns (Lebanon, Libya). BUT ... both Pula and Merida seem doable.

I visited Petra on a 3 week Israel visit - didn't visit Jerash but I am adding it to my bucket list. 

So much to see, so little time.😟

 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, dogs4fun said:

Thanks for the link. There are a few sites listed that I would love to visit but cannot due to political situations and safety concerns (Lebanon, Libya). BUT ... both Pula and Merida seem doable.

I visited Petra on a 3 week Israel visit - didn't visit Jerash but I am adding it to my bucket list. 

So much to see, so little time.😟

 

 

I think I've mentioned before that Leptis Magna (Libya) is #1 on my bucket list. If a safe window for travel ever exists, I will do everything I can to make that happen. 

 

I visited Baalbek on the same Voyages to Antiquity cruise that also took me to Palmyra. The temples are simply gigantic in scale. I hope you can get there. Andante Travels (British firm) has recently added Lebanon back into their tour rotation -- I would love to go back at some point.

 

I was in Merida a couple of years ago in the heat of early September -- I would recommend going when it is a bit more temperate! There is a lot to see (including a really fabulous museum of Roman finds AND a couple of excavated villas with mosaics as well as remains of aqueducts), I think we stayed there 2 or 3 nights -- it's a lovely little city and well worth it. 

 

Some time I will have to tell about my obsession with a very particular type of ancient "souvenir glassware" from Baiae in Italy -- they have a piece of it in the Merida museum, which is rare indeed.

 

[bennybear]

43 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

"souvenir glassware" from Baiae in Italy

Ooh,  do tell when you have some time!😄

[dogs4fun]

49 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Some time I will have to tell about my obsession with a very particular type of ancient "souvenir glassware" from Baiae in Italy -- they have a piece of it in the Merida museum, which is rare indeed.

The flasks? I've not seen one in person but read about them awhile back in an archaeology magazine.

[cruisemom42]

9 hours ago, bennybear said:

Ooh,  do tell when you have some time!😄

 

9 hours ago, dogs4fun said:

The flasks? I've not seen one in person but read about them awhile back in an archaeology magazine.

 

Yes, wow dogs4fun, surprised you know about them. I had never heard of them until going through the museum in Merida. I almost passed by this piece of etched glass, then the explanation card caught my eye and my mind was blown at this bit of "souvenir" glass surviving from antiquity. When I got home I started researching them.

 

Apparently by late antiquity Baiae was known as a bit of a tourist destination/spa town. Come take the bath waters and also see how the rich and famous live in their villas by the sea, blah blah blah.  Glass blowing was an established art in the region and there must have been some enterprising glass blowers who started creating small blown glass flasks and etching them with scenes from Baiae and Puteoli.

 

To date there are only a few documented flasks and fragments of flasks. The most complete one (I think) is in the Corning glass museum. Researchers have studied them for clues about how the waterfront in these two towns must have looked, and what types of buildings, temples, villas, piers, etc. were built there.

 

Here's a photo of the one in the Corning museum:

 

 

It was found near the ancient city of Populonia (founded by the Etruscans; I've visited it) in the early 1800s. Below is a tracing of what the etching actually shows, including (at right) a triumphal arch topped by a four-horse chariot, with two comemorative columns topped by sculptures next to it, and below that several quays jutting into the water (dark hatched area) with boats:

 

 

I find it fascinating that people then, as now, wanted to bring home a souvenir of their travels. Amazing that any of these survived. (I don't know Latin well except for "monument Latin" but I think that "Anima felix vivas" means something like "May you live a happy life".)

[bennybear]

Wow!  So very cool!   And the quote is wonderful as we look forward to next year! 
Thank you! 

[dogs4fun]

You shouldn't be surprised  @cruisemom42 as you are partially to 'blame' for my knowledge of the flasks. I visited Baiae in 2017 and you were very generous in providing me with some excellent information prior to my trip. 🙂 In early 2019 you again provided some excellent advice/info for an upcoming solo classical Roman extravaganza.  So, with help from you and online courses, I might possess a fraction of your knowledge of ancient Rome.

I have watched Diana Kleiner's videos on Roman architecture & sometime consult them to refresh my memory - her videos are excellent (you may have been the person who first steered me to Keiner).

And - I too cannot wait to see the Augustus Mausoleum - like you, I wandered past it many times over the years and was appalled by the lack of any effort at preservation.

My interest in Roman antiquity is exceeded only by my love of classical music so I often must choose between visits that feed my interest in classical antiquity or music.

 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, dogs4fun said:

You shouldn't be surprised  @cruisemom42 as you are partially to 'blame' for my knowledge of the flasks. I visited Baiae in 2017 and you were very generous in providing me with some excellent information prior to my trip. 🙂 In early 2019 you again provided some excellent advice/info for an upcoming solo classical Roman extravaganza.  So, with help from you and online courses, I might possess a fraction of your knowledge of ancient Rome.

I have watched Diana Kleiner's videos on Roman architecture & sometime consult them to refresh my memory - her videos are excellent (you may have been the person who first steered me to Keiner).

And - I too cannot wait to see the Augustus Mausoleum - like you, I wandered past it many times over the years and was appalled by the lack of any effort at preservation.

My interest in Roman antiquity is exceeded only by my love of classical music so I often must choose between visits that feed my interest in classical antiquity or music.

 

 

 

 

Thanks -- I remember our exchanges; hope you didn't take my comment as anything other than surprise over an esoteric topic. 

 

It's funny the things that catch one's interest in the course of years of study. While researching the souvenir glass, I also learned that there were also other types of souvenir glass sold -- for example, some molded glass has been found that depicts popular gladiators of the day -- one can imagine them being sold at gladiatorial matches, maybe from some of those little shops they've discovered at the base of the Circus Maximus in Rome (where some gladiatorial combats took place in the days before the Flavian amphitheatre....

 

Also, on my last trip to Naples (February 2020), in the course of creating some detailed notes on the Villa San Marco in Stabiae, I ran across a description of a very unusual set of "cups" that had been found in a room in this villa and are now in the museum in Naples. They are unusual due to their Egyptianizing style and decoration. Now I've been in that museum countless times and never noticed them before, but I tracked them down this time (I even had to enlist some museum personnel....).  I have to imagine that the villa owners must have been either major followers of Isis or perhaps had some connections with Egypt (trade?).

 

My photos of the two cups that are most complete:

 

 

 

Due to the reflections of the lighting off other displays it was impossible to get a photo of the whole grouping.  I wish museums would think about the lighting issue when setting up displays!

 

Some details of the inlay/decorative design:

 

 

 

 

They are so sumptuous that one could almost imagine Cleopatra and Mark Antony quaffing wine from them during one of their legendary banquets!

 

[bennybear]

Absolutely astounding!  I think these details of their life’s make it all come alive!  Again thank you for sharing these beautiful cups! 

[dogs4fun]

18 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

I find it fascinating that people then, as now, wanted to bring home a souvenir of their travels. Amazing that any of these survived. 

Those cups with the Egyptian motif are very interesting - will look for them when I next visit the museum.

I wonder if the desire to collect mementos/souvenirs arose when people no longer had to worry about fulfilling just their basic needs?  I imagine that the desire to collect these mementos must be several thousand years old.

I remember reading about Canaletto’s souvenir paintings that he sold to tourists in the 1700s. I couldn’t believe it .. . those paintings are worth millions today. 

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, bennybear said:

Absolutely astounding!  I think these details of their life’s make it all come alive!  Again thank you for sharing these beautiful cups! 

 

You're very welcome.

 

Isn't it strange how sometimes being in a museum like the one in Naples can be so overwhelming initially, but when you are able to limit yourself to just a section at a time, or some key pieces, it becomes a much richer experience?

 

 

40 minutes ago, dogs4fun said:

Those cups with the Egyptian motif are very interesting - will look for them when I next visit the museum.

I wonder if the desire to collect mementos/souvenirs arose when people no longer had to worry about fulfilling just their basic needs?  I imagine that the desire to collect these mementos must be several thousand years old.

I remember reading about Canaletto’s souvenir paintings that he sold to tourists in the 1700s. I couldn’t believe it .. . those paintings are worth millions today. 

 

The cups are with the items from the Temple of Isis in Pompeii, even though that is not their provenance. I guess they're grouped there due to the Egyptian theme...

 

I met someone on the Yale tour with Diana Kleiner who has a business selling "Grand Tour" (17th-18th c.) mementoes -- things like hand-carved inaglios with various famous buidlings, or the Parthenon or the Segesta temples carved out of cork, or small marble replicas of the Colosseum or Pantheon. Of course, the wealthier lads just bought up the real ancient statues and mosaics that were being excavated. 

[bennybear]

I have been astounded when visiting stately homes,  what has been brought back from a grand tour!  Not sure if my Murano chandelier counts😉

[iancal]

We spent five days in Antalya touring about.  Our favourite was the climb to Termessos just outside the city and the drive to Aspendos and Sidi(sp).  

 

We very much enjoyed the small museum in Antalya.  

 

Antalya is a great little place to spend some time.  Excellent beaches.  Small port with numerous day long boat trips for sightseeing, swimming, and of course on board barbeque fish.

[cruisemom42]

On 12/31/2020 at 6:52 PM, bennybear said:

I have been astounded when visiting stately homes,  what has been brought back from a grand tour!  Not sure if my Murano chandelier counts😉

 

If you've ever visited the Ashmolean museum in Oxford, you may have noticed the description of many items being something like "Donated by Lord XXX in 1841. Purchased in Italy; provenance unknown."

 

Were they redecorating the lordly home and just decided that granddad's souvenirs from the Grand Tour were just dust-catchers?

 

 

[cruisemom42]

20 hours ago, iancal said:

We spent five days in Antalya touring about.  Our favourite was the climb to Termessos just outside the city and the drive to Aspendos and Sidi(sp).  

 

We very much enjoyed the small museum in Antalya.  

 

Antalya is a great little place to spend some time.  Excellent beaches.  Small port with numerous day long boat trips for sightseeing, swimming, and of course on board barbeque fish.

 

I love Antalya so much on my first visit there -- for the charming town, the sea, and the accessibility of many great archaeological sites -- that I investigated buying a small house or apartment there. Now it is so popular that it has become very expensive.

 

[iancal]

Since retiring  we get more pleasure spending a few weeks along the Turkish Med coast, on Greek Islands, in Sicily, Malta, or Italy, etc than we do from any cruise.  We still like cruising and the on board environment but it is certainly not the be all and end all for us. 

 

We like the ability to spend extra days in places like  Antalya than we planned or to pack up a and leave if we are ready.   Same for the sites.   Last thing we would want to do is rush around seeing everything but missing far more. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by iancal