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Vaccine proof not good enough


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5 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

Also you could still have it and spread it to others with the vaccine.

Is there a study out on this?  I thought that was still being studied, and which vaccine you get MIGHT actually determine if you can spread it to others.

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2 minutes ago, hallux said:

Is there a study out on this?  I thought that was still being studied, and which vaccine you get MIGHT actually determine if you can spread it to others.

A vaccine does not block you from getting a virus at all. it only helps you fight it off better. 

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20 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

A vaccine does not block you from getting a virus at all. it only helps you fight it off better. 

I realize there are many, many medical opinions out there regarding the vaccines, and this following one certainly can't be any more accurate than the many personal opinions available on Facebook, however, here is a medical opinion I just saw.  

 

  • If anything, the 95 percent number understates the effectiveness, because it counts anyone who came down with a mild case of Covid-19 as a failure. But turning Covid into a typical flu — as the vaccines evidently did for most of the remaining 5 percent — is actually a success. Of the 32,000 people who received the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine in a research trial, do you want to guess how many contracted a severe Covid case? One.
  • Although no rigorous study has yet analyzed whether vaccinated people can spread the virus, it would be surprising if they did. “If there is an
    • example of a vaccine in widespread clinical use that has this selective effect — prevents disease but not infection — I can’t think of one!” Dr. Paul Sax of Harvard has written in The New England Journal of Medicine. (And, no, exclamation points are not common in medical journals.) On Twitter, Dr. Monica Gandhi of the University of California, San Francisco, argued: “Please be assured that YOU ARE SAFE after vaccine from what matters — disease and spreading.”
    • The risks for vaccinated people are still not zero, because almost nothing in the real world is zero risk. A tiny percentage of people may have allergic reactions. And I’ll be eager to see what the studies on post-
      • vaccination spread eventually show. But the evidence so far suggests that the vaccines are akin to a cure.

      Offit told me we should be greeting them with the same enthusiasm that greeted the polio vaccine: “It should be this rallying cry.”

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1 hour ago, hallux said:

Which then opens the question - how would a refund be handled?  If I book a cruise today, get through final payment, then come down with COVID 6 weeks before the cruise (assuming we're back to standard final payment timelines and refund schedules), I now am unable to sail but can't get a full refund.

 

They'll need to maintain the current final payment and refund schedules in order to accommodate this.  The other concern becomes those that contract the virus but were asymptomatic (a possibility with the vaccine), so they won't know until they go to board and the cruise line tests them (or get a preemptive test for traveling).

 

There are a lot of "what ifs" that need to be answered for this policy...

 

Agreed. This is one of many reasons for why we are holding off on booking future cruises now. Too much is unknown but so far it appears there's many reasons you would be unable to go - cruising doesn't restart in time, catch covid within 180 days, find out during pre-trip covid test you are positive, close contact of someone with covid shortly before the trip, close contact with another passenger who tests positive at embarkation, another passenger on cruise comes down with covid mid trip and you are quarantined in cabin, etc.... no thanks

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12 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

I don't think you would be able to cruise under this circumstance.  Royal Caribbean included this in their Singapore start up requirements:

"

Guests will also have to undergo another COVID-19 Rapid Antigen Test (ART) at the cruise terminal upon disembarkation at the end of their voyage.

Guests who have tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 in the past 180 days before embarking, or hold a positive serology certificate dated during this timeframe, will not be able to receive a PCR test, and are therefore unable to cruise."

Yes, exactly. Even a person who's recovered might still test positive. Now, with that said:

1. I highly suspect that by the time I can actually go on a cruise, I will have long since recovered 100% and won't test positive in the first place. (I can't see any cruise happening for me until this summer-even if cruises resume this spring, I have other things I have to do, so I'm not available to travel)

2. I am part of a work group considered essential and have been told I will receive the vaccine sometime this spring, so again, I don't think I have anything to worry about.

3. I have, in my possession, a letter from the local health department that states I am recovered from COVID-19 and able to resume daily activities. That letter, along with my positive test, meets the requirements of the CDC's "documentation of recovery." The CDC order that goes into effect January 26 requiring all people traveling to the US from abroad need to either show proof of a negative COVID test OR a documentation of recovery. So I think I'll be alright. Here's a link to the CDC order. The documentation of recovery is mentioned on the 1st page in the Summary.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/global-airline-testing-order_2021-01-2_R3-signed-encrypted-p.pdf

 

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On 1/20/2021 at 9:17 AM, roger001 said:

I've never been thrilled with needles and never, never look as I get an injections.   but...I gotta tell you, needles and shots have come a long way.  The last few shots I've received, including the Covid vaccine, I swear I didn't now I got it.  With the Covid shot I asked the person if she was sure she gave it to me.  She held the needle up for me to see and the liquid was empty.  So, just don't look, fear not, and you probably won't feel a thing.   

It's in my head 😞 should have seen me give birth twice totally needle free Dr. wasn't happy but hey I survived.

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18 hours ago, seaman11 said:

A vaccine does not block you from getting a virus at all. it only helps you fight it off better. 

This is still not known regarding the Covid vaccines.  And it is generally false with regards to the vaccines for all the other viruses out there.  The Covid vaccines are 95% and 94% effective at preventing disease.  It is unknown at this point how effective they are at preventing infection.  Since there is not enough data yet to show if the Covid vaccines actually prevent infection, the scientists are erring on the side of caution with regards to continuing social distancing, masking, etc., even after vaccinations are received and have had enough time to take effect.

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The Hawaii Lt. Governor is talking about allowing fully vaccinated individuals entry into the state without a need to quarantine. I see that becoming the norm soon for most travel entries/carriers.

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On 1/17/2021 at 6:37 PM, Named-Tawny said:


Wow.

If I'm doing my math right, if 70% of the US population will be immune by summer, and 1/2 of that will be through natural infection, then the CDC is estimating that 25% of the US population will have had COVID by summer?

That's what, 110million people?

That's terrifying.

There have already been 25 million documented/test proven  cases in the US. Some estimate there could be 2-5 x that not tested. So we could easily be at 50-100 million already. Vaccinate 100 million more folks and things look a whole lot better! 

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21 hours ago, roger001 said:

I realize there are many, many medical opinions out there regarding the vaccines, and this following one certainly can't be any more accurate than the many personal opinions available on Facebook, however, here is a medical opinion I just saw.  

 

  • If anything, the 95 percent number understates the effectiveness, because it counts anyone who came down with a mild case of Covid-19 as a failure. But turning Covid into a typical flu — as the vaccines evidently did for most of the remaining 5 percent — is actually a success. Of the 32,000 people who received the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine in a research trial, do you want to guess how many contracted a severe Covid case? One.
  • Although no rigorous study has yet analyzed whether vaccinated people can spread the virus, it would be surprising if they did. “If there is an
    • example of a vaccine in widespread clinical use that has this selective effect — prevents disease but not infection — I can’t think of one!” Dr. Paul Sax of Harvard has written in The New England Journal of Medicine. (And, no, exclamation points are not common in medical journals.) On Twitter, Dr. Monica Gandhi of the University of California, San Francisco, argued: “Please be assured that YOU ARE SAFE after vaccine from what matters — disease and spreading.”
    • The risks for vaccinated people are still not zero, because almost nothing in the real world is zero risk. A tiny percentage of people may have allergic reactions. And I’ll be eager to see what the studies on post-
      • vaccination spread eventually show. But the evidence so far suggests that the vaccines are akin to a cure.

      Offit told me we should be greeting them with the same enthusiasm that greeted the polio vaccine: “It should be this rallying cry.”

Exactly. I can’t think of any vaccines that prevented disease but still allowed the disease to spread. This was always a concern with killed polio vaccine versus live vaccine but never materialized in a significant way. Most countries now use killed polio vaccine.

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2 hours ago, tosteve1 said:

There have already been 25 million documented/test proven  cases in the US. Some estimate there could be 2-5 x that not tested. So we could easily be at 50-100 million already. Vaccinate 100 million more folks and things look a whole lot better! 


I don’t think it’s that simple. CDC is give you 3 months of credit after having to Covid to be immune. I personally know someone that caught Covid twice in the span of about 6 months. So don’t think we can count Covid positives as ‘immune’ as Covid vaccinatied

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45 minutes ago, sanger727 said:


I don’t think it’s that simple. CDC is give you 3 months of credit after having to Covid to be immune. I personally know someone that caught Covid twice in the span of about 6 months. So don’t think we can count Covid positives as ‘immune’ as Covid vaccinatied

There will always be exceptions. But anecdotes don’t make good policy. I’m willing to bet that people who have Had COVID once will not get seriously ill if they pick it up again. In the immunization studies there were cases of COVID but relatively mild. Would we care about COVID if people weren’t dying in ICUs? No more than we care about the thousands who die of viral respiratory illnesses in a normal year.

My point is that vaccinating 100 million Americans plus the 50-100 million already infected will certainly have better population immunity than the completely naive population we had in December 2019. If you don’t believe that then what’s the point of vaccinating anyway?

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On 1/20/2021 at 10:53 PM, sanger727 said:

 

Agreed. This is one of many reasons for why we are holding off on booking future cruises now. Too much is unknown but so far it appears there's many reasons you would be unable to go - cruising doesn't restart in time, catch covid within 180 days, find out during pre-trip covid test you are positive, close contact of someone with covid shortly before the trip, close contact with another passenger who tests positive at embarkation, another passenger on cruise comes down with covid mid trip and you are quarantined in cabin, etc.... no thanks

I've accepted the fact it could be several years before I go back on one. Sometimes I think back to last year-  what if the timeline was different and I was on a ship in May that was stuck on sea for extra days. One of my concerns would be coming down positive on the way to NYC, hotel, etc.. I would worry about getting sick this way before all of this. 

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22 hours ago, gizfish said:

This is still not known regarding the Covid vaccines.  And it is generally false with regards to the vaccines for all the other viruses out there.  The Covid vaccines are 95% and 94% effective at preventing disease.  It is unknown at this point how effective they are at preventing infection.  Since there is not enough data yet to show if the Covid vaccines actually prevent infection, the scientists are erring on the side of caution with regards to continuing social distancing, masking, etc., even after vaccinations are received and have had enough time to take effect.

No it is not false. Smh you still get the virus inside you if around you. Your body just fights it off a lot better and you may not feel you have it at all.  Vaccines help build up antibodies to fight it off. It is not a magic blocker. 

Edited by seaman11
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49 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

No it is not false. Smh you still get the virus inside you if around you. Your body just fights it off a lot better and you may not feel you have it at all.  Vaccines help build up antibodies to fight it off. It is not a magic blocker. 

People who get a measles shot do not contract measles.  People who get a mumps shot do not contract mumps.  People who get the polio vaccine do not contract polio, etc,.  In all those cases and any other cases of virus vaccine that I can think of, getting the shot prevents getting the disease and being able to be a "carrier" of the disease. 

 

The one different situation I can think of is in cases of flu vaccine where a person still gets the flu, but gets a less severe case.  And even with that, I don't know if there are cases of people who get a flu shot, get a non symptomatic case of the flu and can transmit the flu to others.

 

Science does not yet know if the Covid vaccine is going to protect against non symptomatic vaccinated people being able to carry and transmit the virus.

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On 1/17/2021 at 3:56 PM, ace2542 said:

This will never be snuffed out. It will be here forever and kill 400k americans and 82k brits every year vaccine or no vaccine.

What authority do you have for this statement?

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On 1/21/2021 at 12:21 PM, zdcatc12 said:

The Hawaii Lt. Governor is talking about allowing fully vaccinated individuals entry into the state without a need to quarantine. I see that becoming the norm soon for most travel entries/carriers.

Only 6% of the 127k travelers to Hawaii in the past couple of weeks choose to quarantine. Everyone else enters with an exception or mostly with a negative COVID test (76% on exemptions). The vaccination pass has little to no impact on Hawaii. 

Edited by BirdTravels
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On 1/22/2021 at 3:23 PM, gizfish said:

People who get a measles shot do not contract measles.  People who get a mumps shot do not contract mumps.  People who get the polio vaccine do not contract polio, etc,.  In all those cases and any other cases of virus vaccine that I can think of, getting the shot prevents getting the disease and being able to be a "carrier" of the disease. 

 

The one different situation I can think of is in cases of flu vaccine where a person still gets the flu, but gets a less severe case.  And even with that, I don't know if there are cases of people who get a flu shot, get a non symptomatic case of the flu and can transmit the flu to others.

 

Science does not yet know if the Covid vaccine is going to protect against non symptomatic vaccinated people being able to carry and transmit the virus.

 

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3 minutes ago, seaman11 said:

 

That points out what we already  know, it's not perfect.  But a 95% protection is still fantastic.  Also, if you are an unlucky one who still gets infected, the infection should be much less severe.  Also, this report also mentions that there was, because of his constant exposure to Covid ill patients, there's  a good chance he got infected either before the vaccination or only shortly thereafter, before it would begin coverage.  So....the media coverage for this story is a bit overblown with the initial emphasis.  

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1 minute ago, roger001 said:

That points out what we already  know, it's not perfect.  But a 95% protection is still fantastic.  Also, if you are an unlucky one who still gets infected, the infection should be much less severe.  Also, this report also mentions that there was, because of his constant exposure to Covid ill patients, there's  a good chance he got infected either before the vaccination or only shortly thereafter, before it would begin coverage.  So....the media coverage for this story is a bit overblown with the initial emphasis.  

That wasnt my point , to the poster, i agree 95% is very good, my point was its not a virus blocker.

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5 hours ago, seaman11 said:

That wasnt my point , to the poster, i agree 95% is very good, my point was its not a virus blocker.

 

That whole video is meaningless as you would not be protected from taking the vaccine for 2-3 weeks after the shot, If he was expecting protection after 8 days he was misinformed, it just shows he was unprotected as the vaccine had not kicked in and he got the virus, surprise surprise.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/healthy-living/immunisation/vaccines/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine/at-your-coronavirus-vaccination-appointment

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On 1/16/2021 at 2:30 PM, hallux said:

Requiring a negative test will exclude anyone that's had COVID and recovered within the last 3-5 months.  Once you've had the virus you continue to test positive for 3-5 months even though the health department has cleared you to return to work.  I wonder how they'll account for that.

This is not necessarily true.  My son had Covid and tested twice within a 3 week period.  Then took a third test which came back negative.   This was all in a 1 month span of time.

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11 hours ago, seaman11 said:

That wasn't my point , to the poster, i agree 95% is very good, my point was its not a virus blocker.

My opinion, a more correct statement would be, "the vaccine may not be a virus blocker", not that it isn't.  Medical research still ongoing regarding that.  And several opinions from medical folks, experts in this vaccine field, (and I realize they certainly don't know more than FB opinions), have said they think it will be a virus blocker.   So, nothing conclusive at this time.  

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I find it difficult to understand how one cannot compare the number of vaccines routinely given in the 80's as an example, to what is given now, and not have some degree of skepticism in this routine medical orthodoxy. If you're going to tell me we have eradicated so many infectious diseases,  I would at least hope you look at the drastic reduction in these diseases from 1900 to when these vaccines were implemented. One would think that the processes of decontaminated water, pasteurization of milk and other products and refrigeration just to name some changes that came to be in the 20th century, had some positive impact on health outcomes. I say this because I hear it said over and over again that everything changed with the advent of vaccines, as if vaccines were the panacea for everything.

 

We have epidemics of childhood chronic illnesses and neurological developmental challenges. Correlation does not equal causation but some things certainly, at a minimum cause me to ask questions. Questioning if we might possibly be destroying our immune system by interventions that we partake in seems to me to be a reasonable thing to do. Applying toxic sunscreens because that's what we are told to do is another intervention that the medical 'experts' say to do. Really? That long list of chemicals cannot possibly be harming us in other ways? Are we all aware of the chemicals that are in most of the hand sanitizers that we are told to use? Is it reasonable to question what the long term use of extreme sanitization will be? If we think covid is bad, I find myself wondering what we will be facing in the future with regard to superbugs.

 

I know those of you who are taking the vaccine are doing so because you feel it is the right thing to do. That is your choice...I respect that. I have too many concerns about the public health system and what motivates them. I'm even more concerned when opinions contrary to public health dogma are censored and often maligned. And, by the way, I have not heard one main stream so called expert, say.. get out for a walk in the sunshine and eat your fruit and vegetables....a simplistic statement but I would think you understand what I'm saying. Written this morning by someone who has grown just a little tired of hearing that those who will not take this vaccine are selfish...

 

 

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