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Mandate the vaccine and establish a realistic start date


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41 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

VERY slippery slope

 

Why?

I heard a discussion on the BBC today regarding this. It isn't an uncommon practice to combine vaccines and, whilst I can't remember enough to quote here what was said, the science behind it was very interesting and potentially groundbreaking 

 

Oh, and the person they interviewed was a doctor with an expertise in immunology- not an CC armchair expert. And he has volunteered to take part in the trial

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35 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

VERY slippery slope

Why is that?
 

It’s a UK trial that has been launched to see if giving people different COVID vaccines for their first and second doses works as well as the current approach of using the same type of vaccine twice.

 

Scientists say mixing jabs could possibly give better protection.

 

Previous experience suggests mixing vaccines could be a beneficial approach - some Ebola immunisation programmes involve mixing different jabs to improve protection, for example.

 

It has also been done with other vaccines such as jabs for hepatitis polio measles mumps and rubella.

 

The study will involve more than 800 volunteers with folks aged 50 or older who have not yet received a COVID vaccine.

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10 minutes ago, Bobal said:

 

Why?

I heard a discussion on the BBC today regarding this. It isn't an uncommon practice to combine vaccines and, whilst I can't remember enough to quote here what was said, the science behind it was very interesting and potentially groundbreaking 

 

Oh, and the person they interviewed was a doctor with an expertise in immunology- not an CC armchair expert. And he has volunteered to take part in the trial

 

8 minutes ago, Norwich Cruiser said:

Why is that?
 

It’s a UK trial that has been launched to see if giving people different COVID vaccines for their first and second doses works as well as the current approach of using the same type of vaccine twice.

 

Scientists say mixing jabs could possibly give better protection.

 

Previous experience suggests mixing vaccines could be a beneficial approach - some Ebola immunisation programmes involve mixing different jabs to improve protection, for example.

 

It has also been done with other vaccines such as jabs for hepatitis polio measles mumps and rubella.

 

The study will involve more than 800 volunteers with folks aged 50 or older who have not yet received a COVID vaccine.

My apologies, I didn't glean from the original post that it was an investigative trial, I interpreted it as they were going to be making this standard practice.

 

American CDC has strictly forbidden the mixing of vaccines until a third party study has been done.

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13 minutes ago, Bobal said:

 

Why?

I heard a discussion on the BBC today regarding this. It isn't an uncommon practice to combine vaccines and, whilst I can't remember enough to quote here what was said, the science behind it was very interesting and potentially groundbreaking 

 

Oh, and the person they interviewed was a doctor with an expertise in immunology- not an CC armchair expert. And he has volunteered to take part in the trial

Although not uncommon to mix vaccines, we have never had mRna vaccines to know how this will work.  Recombinant adenovirus vaccines, we have mixed for years and are well aware how they react. 

 

Not that it matters, but I am a physician as well, not a CC armchair expert; you may wan't to tone down the rhetoric when you don't know your audience. 

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23 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Although not uncommon to mix vaccines, we have never had mRna vaccines to 

Not that it matters, but I am a physician as well, not a CC armchair expert; you may wan't to tone down the rhetoric when you don't know your audience. 

 

And perhaps you could have expanded earlier on your 'VERY slippery slope' theory, since you're such an expert 🙄

 

Nevertheless glad to see the UK taking the initiative, despite your misgivings 

Edited by Bobal
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1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Although not uncommon to mix vaccines, we have never had mRna vaccines to know how this will work.  Recombinant adenovirus vaccines, we have mixed for years and are well aware how they react. 

 

Not that it matters, but I am a physician as well, not a CC armchair expert; you may wan't to tone down the rhetoric when you don't know your audience. 

A funny line to draw since adenovirus vectors are also relatively new, though they have found use in other therapies.

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2 minutes ago, lizzius said:

A funny line to draw since adenovirus vectors are also relatively new, though they have found use in other therapies.

At least 30-35 year old technology; but what matters in this context is that we know how the human body responds to exposure to multiple variants

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1 hour ago, not-enough-cruising said:

 

My apologies, I didn't glean from the original post that it was an investigative trial, I interpreted it as they were going to be making this standard practice.

 

American CDC has strictly forbidden the mixing of vaccines until a third party study has been done.

My post which you commented on said UK to test....

 

TEST was the word I quoted, as in they are running a trial to TEST it. It ran as just a quick news thing and didnt go into more detail other than it would be tested.

 

My assumption was a trial such as the other ones being run. How else would they test it other than a 3rd party trial. 

Edited by firefly333
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42 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

 

My post which you commented on said UK to test....

 

TEST was the word I quoted, as in they are running a trial to TEST it. It ran as just a quick news thing and didnt go into more detail other than it would be tested.

 

My assumption was a trial such as the other ones being run. How else would they test it other than a 3rd party trial. 

As I said in my previous post, I mis-interpreted your post. There was a story run recently that several countries were looking into mixing doses, and spacing out 1st and 2nd doses to vaccinate more people. 

I mistakenly lumped your story in with the other.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/31/2021 at 4:21 PM, Ocean Boy said:

I think you left out a very important word.... return to normal... sooner.

I would say they had it right.  There will always be another hurdle to returning to normal.  There is no sooner, only later.  Later and later and later.   We are never returning to "normal."  A "new normal" perhaps, but definitely a more restrictive and less humane one.  

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On 2/4/2021 at 2:32 PM, Bobal said:

 

Why?

I heard a discussion on the BBC today regarding this. It isn't an uncommon practice to combine vaccines and, whilst I can't remember enough to quote here what was said, the science behind it was very interesting and potentially groundbreaking 

 

Oh, and the person they interviewed was a doctor with an expertise in immunology- not an CC armchair expert. And he has volunteered to take part in the trial

 

You are in good hands with this CC armchair expert.

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On 1/30/2021 at 7:13 PM, Ocean Boy said:

What, exactly, is it that you are going to sue the doctor for that provided the vaccine to you, or to some other patient? What would your plan be for the doctor who advised you not to get the vaccine after you are discharged from the hospital after recovering, assuming you actually live to discharge, from a covid infection?

 

I just love these legal types who are so ready to sue even though it appears you know little yourself about the vaccines. You know even less what it is like in a Covid unit or you would most likely not be demanding 100% guarantees. The only way you get those types of guarentees is with hindsight... something that the legal profession thrives on in spades but not so much the medical profession.

 

Now, go sue the snot out of someone.

i wasn't demanding 100%. Someone said that there was data out there that said it was 100% you would not have to go to the hospital after a vaccine.   I just said that was awfully high "certainty" and that it was overly confident.  

Maybe you need to learn how to read. 

 

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On 1/30/2021 at 6:34 PM, A&L_Ont said:


I was wondering the same thing.  That is unless legaljen1969 has other health issues, to which we are not aware of, regarding possible reactions to a vaccines.

 

If my doctor was saying hold off, for no obvious reasons, I would be making that decision that works for me and not the DR. 

Not that it is anyone's business whether I have other underlying health issues, but I do.   My PCM is just cautious and wants to see a little more of the long view of what is going to happen. 

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes and advising women not to have their mammograms any sooner than 6 weeks after a vaccine because the lymph node swelling is likely to cause doctors to encourage moving forward with a biopsy. Not that it is bad to encourage a woman to have a biopsy, but having already been down that road with the scare of breast cancer- I can only imagine how frightening that could be for women who might have to go through that stress unneccesarily.   

They have not said I cannot get the vaccine or should not get the vaccine- just that they would prefer I definitely wait my turn and not be in a hurry to get the first available appointment.  I have a close friend who also had breast cancer and has never had any problems with lymphedema in the year since her surgery.  She got the shot (in the opposite side arm because, obviously, you don't do shots or blood draws or blood pressures in the surgical arm) and she ended up having serious lymphedema.  

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

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The vaccine is not FDA approved (only has emergency use authorization) and, as such, is considered an experimental treatment. Experimental treatments require consent of the individual and cannot be mandated or coerced according to Federal law and the Nuremberg Code. 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/?utm_content=buffer5911c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_o

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11 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

Not that it is anyone's business whether I have other underlying health issues, but I do.   My PCM is just cautious and wants to see a little more of the long view of what is going to happen. 

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes and advising women not to have their mammograms any sooner than 6 weeks after a vaccine because the lymph node swelling is likely to cause doctors to encourage moving forward with a biopsy. Not that it is bad to encourage a woman to have a biopsy, but having already been down that road with the scare of breast cancer- I can only imagine how frightening that could be for women who might have to go through that stress unneccesarily.   

They have not said I cannot get the vaccine or should not get the vaccine- just that they would prefer I definitely wait my turn and not be in a hurry to get the first available appointment.  I have a close friend who also had breast cancer and has never had any problems with lymphedema in the year since her surgery.  She got the shot (in the opposite side arm because, obviously, you don't do shots or blood draws or blood pressures in the surgical arm) and she ended up having serious lymphedema.  

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

This research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal also discusses how the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS. 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

 

Additionally, the reason no vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses  (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) is that in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

 

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38 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes

 

My friend has had exactly this side effect on the vaccinated arm. It took 4-5 days to pass.

 

She was told that this is one of the rare side effects, but to be sure to link it to the vaccine and not, God forbid, to breast cancer....

 

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2 hours ago, legaljen1969 said:

i wasn't demanding 100%. Someone said that there was data out there that said it was 100% you would not have to go to the hospital after a vaccine.   I just said that was awfully high "certainty" and that it was overly confident.  

Maybe you need to learn how to read. 

 

Funny!😄

 

It was your "sue" remark that I was commenting on.😉

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3 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

This research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal also discusses how the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS. 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

 

Additionally, the reason no vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses  (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) is that in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

 

J.Bart Classen, MD is a rabid, batpoop (pun intended) crazy right-wing conspiracy theorist and antivaxxer. He runs the website vaccines.net.  

 

This is the opening paragraph on his webpage:

We are concerned that the current outbreak of COVID-19 is actually a bioweapon attack and may be linked to the US anthrax attack of 2001, which originated from the US army base Fort Detrick. We are concerned that the current outbreak of COVID-19 is actually a bioweapon attack and may be linked to the US anthrax attack of 2001, which originated from the US army base Fort Detrick. 

 

Anyone who pushes crazy conspiracy theories like that has absolutely no credibility.  His paper that is linked has absolutely no studies of his own. He just picks and chooses some wording from other studies.  His claim to fame is his theory that vaccines cause diabetes which has been widely debunked by other noted experts.

Since this is coming from an anti-vaxxer with debunked theories (his covid vaccine paper relies heavily on his theory of vaccines>>diabetes,) I am not at all worried about receiving the vaccine. 

 

This is the letter he sent to Trump in 2017 to stop vaccinations.  Note that he references that vaccines cause autism.  They do not. Even the Autism society says that is junk science.  Again, the guy has absolutely NO credibility.

Dear President Trump,

You campaigned on the promise of stopping government vaccine policies that have led to the injuries of millions of Americans. As you know  vaccines cause chronic immune disorders such as autism, diabetes, asthma, allergies and multiple different autoimmune diseases. Because of vaccines these diseases are increasing at epidemic proportions. It has been estimated that 50% of adults in the USA have diabetes or prediabetes. We challenge you to stop being distracted by career politicians who are responsible for this tragedy and live up to your campaign promise. Further delays in stopping this tragedy will only leave your administration culpable for these deaths and injuries.

The disastrous government vaccine policies can be stopped by the executive branch without the need of congressional action. The following are several simple solutions that your administration can implement immediately.

1. Stop the CDC from recommending immunization until adequate clinical trials are performed. Vaccines such as the hepatitis B vaccine were approved with less that 2 weeks of safety data. Newer vaccines are routinely approved by the FDA with less than 1 year of safety data and these trials are often too small and poorly controlled to detect rises in autism and diabetes. The CDC should be honest with the public about the complete lack of any data that vaccines improve health. 

2. Stop the FDA from approving new vaccines until proper clinical trials are performed. An adequate trial needs to include approximately 500,000 patients and follow each patient for at least 7 years. Half the patients should receive the vaccine of interest and half should receive a placebo control in its place. Current FDA sanctioned safety trials include comparison between groups receiving different vaccines. This trial design is like comparing arsenic to cyanide and concluding both are safe because the mortality is the same in both groups. The FDA should begin mandating that vaccines already approved based on flawed trial designs be removed from the market unless proper clinical trials are started immediately.

3. Have the US Attorney General investigate the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.  This program has been a total failure and millions who developed diabetes, autism, and other vaccine induced diseases have not been compensated. The program appears to be part of your so called  "Swamp". In one case a lawyer for a plaintiff was caught embezzling money from the vaccine fund by submitting a bogus expense report to the court. The lawyer was not disbarred and still practices before the vaccine court.

It is essential you live up to your campaign promises immediately and correct the dangerous government vaccine policies.

Sincerely,

J. Bart Classen, MD

Edited by cured
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Our news interviewed a 12 year old in a moderna trial. So refreshing. She was into theater and wanted her life back. Children want school back., she felt like she was helping the world get back to normal. Cheers to her. Turns out children volunteer much more readily than adults. They had a additional 1000 kids who volunteered over the needed amount. Go kids.

 

After all the whining and moaning from adults, I found it so nice to hear someone who wanted to do whatever it took to get life back to some sense of normal.

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On 1/28/2021 at 5:06 PM, karena1 said:

I laugh that everyone thinks this vaccine is the end all to be all.  Just like the flu shot!!!.  There are so many variations of this virus, just b/c you get it, does not mean you  will be protected, anymore than you are protected with the flu shot.  I will get the vaccine (even though I am totally against it) ONLY because I want to cruise again.  We have been traveling all over since June and neither one of us have had any issues at all.  In fact - until we go in March, when the stupid CDC has mandated we get a test to come back to the states, we have not even had a COVID test.  This will be the first for us.  But willing to put up with the CDC BS so we can continue to travel.  Just like we will put up with the requirement to get the Vaccine even though I don't think it will do anything more than a flu shot (which I have never had).  Unfortunately, we live in a stupid world right now, and the CDC wants to control everything.  So whether I like it or not, I will do what they mandate. We refuse to sit at home in a bubble and die.  We want to live, so will do what we have to so we can continue to travel.  I know I will get blasted because we don't live in fear, but I simply don't care anymore. I am totally over all this BS.  Get the country open and let people live again. My mother almost died last weekend of a stroke.  Thankfully, she will be fine.  But life is short - LIVE IT!

 

 

 

Ditto!👍

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18 minutes ago, koolZip said:

As soon as I see the words "live in fear" in someone's comment, I know that I can, with complete confidence, ignore everything else they have to say.

Agreed.... Also, ‘basement’.

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6 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

The vaccine is not FDA approved (only has emergency use authorization) and, as such, is considered an experimental treatment. Experimental treatments require consent of the individual and cannot be mandated or coerced according to Federal law and the Nuremberg Code. 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/?utm_content=buffer5911c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_o

The EEOC has already issued guidelines for Employers mandating vaccines. The issue has already been in front of the Supreme Court in 1905.

 

On December 16, 2020, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) issued guidance debunking prevailing wisdom and paving the way for employer-mandated vaccines. The EEOC dealt squarely with the issue of whether vaccines are “medical examinations” under the ADA and also addressed the intersection and applicability of various laws implicated by the availability of COVID-19 vaccinations, including the ADA, the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (and, specifically, religious accommodation thereunder).

Most notably, the EEOC posited that the administration of a COVID-19 vaccine to an employee by an employer, or by a third-party administrator on behalf of the employer, is not a “medical examination” under the ADA. The EEOC unequivocally expressed that “if a vaccine is administered to an employee by an employer for protection against contracting COVID-19, the employer is not seeking information about an individual’s impairments or current health status and, therefore, it is not a medical examination.” This position would seem to give private employer’s the green light to implement COVID-19 vaccine policies and require employees to be vaccinated as a condition to continued employment or, at the very least, as a condition to returning to the physical workplace.

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-guidance-covid-19-vaccinations-what-now-employers

Edited by cured
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