Mandate the vaccine and establish a realistic start date

[karena1]

18 hours ago, maggieq said:

I applaud you Karena1.   We were going to take our rescheduled trip to Aruba in the spring and now you have to test before traveling and before boarding a flight home to the USA.  I cannot take the chance of a false positive so back to the drawing board on travel choices.  

Yeah, we are not happy about having to be tested to come back from Cancun or Punta Cana, but we are still going to go.  Will see how it goes.  We have not had a test as of yet, and don't want it at all, but will deal with all the BS so we can travel.

[karena1]

18 hours ago, molly361 said:

It sounds like the OP has not even heard about the CDC's No Sail Order

Trust me, I  KNOW about the CDCs no sail order.  I just don't happen to agree with it for many reasons.

[ace2542]

2 hours ago, time4u2go said:

What you said about Fauci is misleading at best.  He stated that if NOTHING was done, millions could die.  He never predicted that millions would die.

In UK Johnson wanted to go the full herd immunity just letting it run while telling the at risk groups to shield if they wanted no masks nothing just let it run. He was told 560k would die if he pursued that route. So he went in to the lockdown masks tiers etc etc. Would 560k people have died without lockdown we will never know?.

Edited January 29, 2021 by ace2542

[ace2542]

1 minute ago, karena1 said:

Trust me, I  KNOW about the CDCs no sail order.  I just don't happen to agree with it for many reasons.

Are you like the second most travelled person on Royal behind Mario? With 116 cruises you have been on those ships for at least 800 nights.

[TheMastodon]

3 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

I think that’s their wish. Doom and gloom, on any topic is their theme. 

 

yep.  Certain members of this board feed off it too

[karena1]

3 hours ago, Iamcruzin said:

I know you had a zillion cruises booked. Happy to see you were able to make other travel plans. I think land trips are the way to go until this mess is over. I wish I was retired. I stated a new job and it will take me some time to accumulate vacation time. These travel delays are forcing me to stay in driving distance.

We sure have been traveling!  San Juan in June, Cancun in August, Punta Cana in Sept, Cancun in Nov, Punta Cana in Dec, Cancun in Jan, going to Cancun in March and Punta Cana in April and May.  Next cruise is end of June on Navigator and we will see.  16 canceled so far and guessing more to come.  I do not take any more FCC's, over them.  I have enough to deal with, and if they keep canceling I am going to have too many.  So for now, just not getting any more and just applying the ones I have to our cruises booked though 4/2022.

[karena1]

12 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Are you like the second most travelled person on Royal behind Mario? With 116 cruises you have been on those ships for at least 800 nights.

no, there are a TON of people that have more points than we do.  We take a lot of short cruises and still need about 100 nights.  We would have made Pinnacle sometime in 2021, but now that is not going to happen.  Depending on when they start cruising again, possible 2022.  The double points through Sept 2022 will help us make up for what we lost with cancellations, but not sure when we will make it at this point.  

[smokeybandit]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

 

Why are you determined to besmirch the CDC? The CDC has about as much interest in the health of the cruise industry as in the soft drink business. None.

Then why have they held their foot to the throat of the cruise industry while allowing other travel and leisure industries to ramp back up?

[Ocean Boy]

20 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Remember that just because you have the vaccine does not mean you won't get covid or spread it.    They are saying people who get the vaccine would have reduced symptoms and maybe no symptoms but can still be spreaders.   

That is the point of requiring 100% vaccinations on the ships. If anyone does come down with the infection they shouldn't need hospitalisation and the only people who possibly might be exposed are vaccinated.

 

There are not many controlled populations in this world where you can get a 100% vaccination rate. A cruise ship is one of them.

[lizzius]

5 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

That is the point of requiring 100% vaccinations on the ships. If anyone does come down with the infection they shouldn't need hospitalisation and the only people who possibly might be exposed are vaccinated.

 

There are not many controlled populations in this world where you can get a 100% vaccination rate. A cruise ship is one of them.

If it's only about hospitalization risk then letting teens and kids on should not be a problem, vaccinated or otherwise. 

[Ocean Boy]

19 hours ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

No, it would not. It can, and probably will, spread all over the ship. The good news is that no one on board will be overly affected by it. But. when they get off the ship, carrying the virus, they will have the potential to spread it others that have not been vaccinated.

All an assumption. That may be the case but it could equally be the case that you won't carry or spread it. Don't present what we don't yet know as fact.

[Ocean Boy]

17 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Because everyone will never be vaccinated. Not even close.

Everyone does not have to be vaccinated. Only the people on the ship need be. 

 

The cruise lines, should they choose ro have a vaccine policy, have no obligation to accommodate kids or anyone else who isn't vaccinated 

[crewsweeper]

20 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Remember that just because you have the vaccine does not mean you won't get covid or spread it.    They are saying people who get the vaccine would have reduced symptoms and maybe no symptoms but can still be spreaders.   

 

Not sure who "they" are, but lots of misinformation and misreporting floating around.  I'm doubting there are enough people who've been vaccinated yet to make that blanket statement.

What I have read, Fauci, if he can be believed, has said that the vaccine doesn't automatically protect you.  You need 10 days or so after vaccine #2 to built the full immunity.  But that doesn't mean you can't catch it.

I'm sure that some with vaccines getting the COVID symptoms  in some fashion are similar to those with flu shots that still get a milder form of flu. 

The trick is, if you think you have symptoms, wear a mask.  Masks do more to prevent spread FROM people with COVID than keeping people without COVID from catching it.

Edited January 29, 2021 by crewsweeper

[Ocean Boy]

4 hours ago, ace2542 said:

The CDC wants to destroy the industry because they don't like how illness spreads onboard. And their practice of saving ships in distress in the ocean that could be anybody lets just leave it at that on a public forum shall we. 

 

Cruising will NEVER return to the way it used be in December 2018 long before we heard of the term Covid 19. Masks will be worn on cruise ships to contain this forever more even when not worn on land. Self service buffets will never be on cruise ships again but on land. Mark my words.

Where have I heard that before?🤔

[lizzius]

3 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

Not sure who "they" are, but lots of misinformation and misreporting floating around.  I'm doubting there are enough people who've been vaccinated yet to make that blanket statement.

What I have read, Fauci, if he can be believed, has said that the vaccine doesn't automatically protect you.  You need 10 days or so after vaccine #2 to built the full immunity.  But that doesn't mean you can't catch it.

I'm sure that some with vaccines getting the COVID symptoms  in some fashion are similar to those with flu shots that still get a milder form of flu. 

The trick is, if you think you have symptoms, wear a mask.  Masks do more to prevent spread FROM people with COVID than keeping people without COVID from catching it.

The new vaccines (novavax and J&J) didn't have as high of an efficacy against symptomatic infection (even after full dosing). What we don't know is if you can have asymptomatic infection that is still transmissable after vaccination, but it seems likely that if you have a symptomatic one you are still going to be contagious. Given the lower efficacy vaccines are likely to be the ones widely used, I wonder what that could mean for health policy.

 

[Ocean Boy]

3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

And the proof of that: last year in the spring, Dr Anthony Fauci predicted "MILLIONS" of Americans would be dead by the fall. Didn't happen. Do you any think any of the naysayers (not just talking here on Cruise Critic, but everywhere) who agreed with Dr Fauci came back to say they were wrong? Nope.

They're never wrong, just ask 'em. LOL!

Be careful what you say about the great sage. Some people here worship him.

[lizzius]

9 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Everyone does not have to be vaccinated. Only the people on the ship need be. 

 

The cruise lines, should they choose ro have a vaccine policy, have no obligation to accommodate kids or anyone else who isn't vaccinated 

I personally don't think the cruise lines will make a decision and let the ports they visit ultimately decide. What you are overlooking is that from a standpoint of an island or destination which may not have the capacity to care for an outbreak amongst it's citizens, the difference between a sterilizing vaccine and a non-sterilizing one will be huge. It could be the difference between allowing their borders to open after travellers have been vaccinated versus waiting for the whole of their citizenry to have access to a vaccine. One vaccinated, but symptomatic, Traveller could start an outbreak just as easily as an unvaccinated one.

[Ocean Boy]

26 minutes ago, lizzius said:

If it's only about hospitalization risk then letting teens and kids on should not be a problem, vaccinated or otherwise. 

No, the reason is the more people who are vaccinated the less chance anyone will even have the annoyance if being sick at all. And places such as the Caribbean island may be far more likely to open up to ships that are 100% vaccinated than if the ship has exceptions aboard.

[lizzius]

Just now, Ocean Boy said:

No, the reason is the more people who are vaccinated the less chance anyone will even have the annoyance if being sick at all. And places such as the Caribbean island may be far more likely to open up to ships that are 100% vaccinated than if the ship has exceptions aboard.

Kids are already low risk. This argument falls apart when you're looking at a vaccine with 60-70% efficacy... You will absolutely not get to herd immunity at that threshold and the perspective inherently switched to this becoming something we must survive rather than eradicate. If the vaccine stops older and vulnerable people from getting hospitalized, then once they've had it we're all good to go.

[broberts]

58 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Then why have they held their foot to the throat of the cruise industry while allowing other travel and leisure industries to ramp back up?

 

Apples, oranges and turtles.

 

If you do not understand the mandate of the CDC, check it's web site. As an agency of the US government it has particular powers.

 

Spending a week on a cruise ship is vastly different from a few hours breathing heavily filtered, frequently changed air on a flight.

 

If the CDC had some animus toward the cruise industry it could have shut it down decades ago.

[firefly333]

4 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

 

If the CDC had some animus toward the cruise industry it could have shut it down decades ago.

The cdc never had the excuse before. I think once a govt agency gets a taste of power it is easy to abuse in the name of we are protecting you. We are here, we are the government and here to help you. 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

14 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Be careful what you say about the great sage. Some people here worship him.

LOL. 🤣

I actually really like Dr Fauci. My problem isn't with him, it's with the way some people selectively quote him and other doctors to suit a narrative they're trying to push. I live in Northern Virginia, in Fairfax County, which is huge and has lots of schools. They've been virtual, or quasi-virtual, for about 10 months or so. "Follow the science," they said. Hmm, then why is it that Norway and Sweden never locked down THEIR schools? (and, dontcha know, the negative wags here in the US are always swooning over Europe and suggesting their methods are superior to ours?). Why is it that Florida has far more 65+ residents than all but one other state (according to Gov Ron De Santis, whom I heard interviewed on the radio last night) but only 26th in terms of deaths from COVID? Yet his state has had NONE of the lockdowns in NY and CA but they've had more deaths? A Danish study showed a MINIMAL decrease in COVID-19 transmission when 2 people wore masks vs without, yet to hear some people speak about it, masks are the Holy Grail and "how dare anybody" challenge them? Please, gimme a break. I'm just sick and tired of the selectivity of it all. If you're going to say "follow the science," then look at ALL of the scientific evidence, including the kind that contradicts what you want to be true. But as I've said before, Cruise Critic and online forums are the LAST place I turn to for medical information. I'm not changing one thing about my life because Joe Schmoe who's been on 200 cruises tells me to. 🙄

[not-enough-cruising]

4 hours ago, Mapleleafforever said:

You're bored today eh?

you mis-spelled "clueless" 

[not-enough-cruising]

52 minutes ago, lizzius said:

The new vaccines (novavax and J&J) didn't have as high of an efficacy against symptomatic infection (even after full dosing). What we don't know is if you can have asymptomatic infection that is still transmissable after vaccination, but it seems likely that if you have a symptomatic one you are still going to be contagious. Given the lower efficacy vaccines are likely to be the ones widely used, I wonder what that could mean for health policy.

 

Their efficacy is more than enough for herd immunity, especially in a 100% vaccinated setting (like a cruise ship)

Even at 60-70% efficacy, the amount of viral load in the "carrier segment" and the resistance of the "at risk of infection" segment makes the risk of a serious transmission statistical insignificant.

[exm]

3 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Look, I'd love to have my grandkids cruise w/ me but the real deal is if a business is going to go belly up because of no buisness, then I would imagine that they'd adapt to the reality around them that says, "No vax, No entry."  As difficult as that sounds, it's just the way it's going to be in our future. 

 

Let me turn this around. Ban everyone age 50 and older on cruises due to the increased mortality rate: the age-specific infection fatality rate is extremely low among children and young adults, measuring 0.002% at age 10 and 0.01% at 25. However, the rate progressively increased with age, growing from 0.4% at 55 to around 15% at 85.

 

Don't like that? I don't like it either that as parents I can't cruise since my kids can't get vaccinated (I will get my shot when I'm eligible).

 

So the solution I think will be:

- The entire crew will be vaccinated

- To board a ship you either need to be vaccinated or comply to a specific (TBD) testing schedule

Edited January 29, 2021 by exm