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Crystal to require vaccinations


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Some might take Breitbart with a grain of salt.  But this piece makes some interesting observations on China and how it would like to run a "Global Passport" system for the WHO.  It also cites efficacy numbers for the Chinese versions of vaccine which differ pretty dramatically from Pfizer, Moderna and J&J.  So recognizing that this is a world wide pandemic, does Crystal require certain vaccines or just that passengers have been vaccinated, especially when some itineraries cover Southeast Asia where it may be that the Chinese or other vaccines might predominate.  Interesting food for thought as though all of this was not difficult enough to sort out just thinking about Pfizer, Moderna and J&J.

 

China Urges W.docx

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, H2O Polo Willie said:

Some might take Breitbart with a grain of salt.  But this piece makes some interesting observations on China and how it would like to run a "Global Passport" system for the WHO.  It also cites efficacy numbers for the Chinese versions of vaccine which differ pretty dramatically from Pfizer, Moderna and J&J.  So recognizing that this is a world wide pandemic, does Crystal require certain vaccines or just that passengers have been vaccinated, especially when some itineraries cover Southeast Asia where it may be that the Chinese or other vaccines might predominate.  Interesting food for thought as though all of this was not difficult enough to sort out just thinking about Pfizer, Moderna and J&J.

 

China Urges W.docx 108.67 kB · 0 download

 

For now, Crystal's policy is only allowing vaccines approved (or EUA) by the FDA or EMA.  Unless they do special deployments where the ships get marketed specifically to a different local market than Crystal's current customer base, I don't expect that to change.

 

crystal-covid19-vaccine-requirements-faqs.pdf (crystalcruises.com)

 

Vince

Edited by BWIVince
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7 hours ago, suzeluvscruz said:

You mean the President actually said something?

Well, Yeah.

 

You just have to watch the networks which carry his talks.

 

Actually the major focus has been on COVID-19 and he has held had several talks on this one and has a full court press on this.

 

I subscribe to the approach that actions speak louder than words (and Tweets) on all issues not just COVID-19, and as we all know that includes cruising.

 

Keith

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9 hours ago, suzeluvscruz said:

You mean the President actually said something?


I’ve watched the President speak to the press almost every day for the past week, including Saturday.  Novel concept, huh?

 

Vince

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Let me add this evening President Joe Biden will give his first Prime Time address marking one year since the World Health Organization declared COVID-19 a Pandemic.

 

Start time 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time

 

Lots of stations will carry it and if you can't watch or record it I am sure it will be available on a wide range of internet sites to watch at a later time.

 

Keith

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2 hours ago, Keith1010 said:

Let me add this evening President Joe Biden will give his first Prime Time address marking one year since the World Health Organization declared COVID-19 a Pandemic.

 

Start time 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time

 

Lots of stations will carry it and if you can't watch or record it I am sure it will be available on a wide range of internet sites to watch at a later time.

 

Keith

 

Thanks for the warning!

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Thankful we have a President who takes this virus seriously, and is taking decisive action to bring the pandemic under control and get the US moving again.  Only through concerted efforts will things return to normal, and that includes cruising.  I'm ready to sail again!

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I know this has sort of been discussed but here in the US (got my second yesterday) the card you get is a paper one that is too big to fit in a wallet without folding.   I suspect that they won't last long before getting unreadable.  I hope they issue a more hardy - plastic type or add to drivers license or passport.

It would be horrible to be able to travel but your card isn't in good enough shape to be read and verified.

 

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1 hour ago, ctjon said:

I know this has sort of been discussed but here in the US (got my second yesterday) the card you get is a paper one that is too big to fit in a wallet without folding.   I suspect that they won't last long before getting unreadable.  I hope they issue a more hardy - plastic type or add to drivers license or passport.

It would be horrible to be able to travel but your card isn't in good enough shape to be read and verified.

 

 

I would be surprised if in the current era a piece of paper or card with handwritten information on it about vaccines would be accepted as official proof of vaccination status.  It is just far too easy to falsify.  It is looking like a digital vaccination passport is likely to be brought into use - IATA are working on one, and the governments of several countries are also doing that. Possibly a phone app that ties in to your medical records, would be a way forward that has been designed to minimise the risk of fraudulently getting the app with your vaccine status on it. After all when you have your passport scanned in for a cruise or a flight there is a check to see if you are on the no-fly list or a wanted criminal - so having an additional data field populated by an official data stream giving the status of whether you have had your vaccine, and whether one or two doses, would not be beyond governments to manage and have travel companies receive access to it in the same way that passport checks are done.

 

It will take time for a good secure design to be brought into use, and for the databases that underpin such a system to be tested and checked for vulnerabilities from the many attempts for cyber criminals to break in and alter data - but it can be done - and if the world's economy is going to start moving forward international travel provision in as safe a way as possible is going to feature large in the minds of governments across the world. So I would be surprised if a digital vaccine status does not get brought in at some point later this year.

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2 hours ago, mcloaked said:

 

I would be surprised if in the current era a piece of paper or card with handwritten information on it about vaccines would be accepted as official proof of vaccination status.  It is just far too easy to falsify.  It is looking like a digital vaccination passport is likely to be brought into use - IATA are working on one, and the governments of several countries are also doing that. Possibly a phone app that ties in to your medical records, would be a way forward that has been designed to minimise the risk of fraudulently getting the app with your vaccine status on it. After all when you have your passport scanned in for a cruise or a flight there is a check to see if you are on the no-fly list or a wanted criminal - so having an additional data field populated by an official data stream giving the status of whether you have had your vaccine, and whether one or two doses, would not be beyond governments to manage and have travel companies receive access to it in the same way that passport checks are done.

 

It will take time for a good secure design to be brought into use, and for the databases that underpin such a system to be tested and checked for vulnerabilities from the many attempts for cyber criminals to break in and alter data - but it can be done - and if the world's economy is going to start moving forward international travel provision in as safe a way as possible is going to feature large in the minds of governments across the world. So I would be surprised if a digital vaccine status does not get brought in at some point later this year.

 

We have a couple dozen (and growing rapidly) companies in the US that are developing some kind of digital vaccine passport.  More than anything, airlines and people that have to consume the data are hoping the IATA Travel Pass project produces an industry standard (as is often the case with IATA) that all the digital passports will have to follow in terms of data format and specs.  As it stands right now the precursor apps to the actual passports (that just manually collect and submit the vaccination data to airlines and suppliers) so far do it in all kinds of different formats with all kinds of different results, which seems to be driving the airlines nuts.

 

Besides the IATA Travel Pass, IBM's Digital Health Pass seems to be the other project of that scale that I keep hearing about.  Of course the fact that Clear used the same name for their health pass originally might be part of the reason I heard about it so much.  🙄

 

Vince

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8 hours ago, BWIVince said:

 

We have a couple dozen (and growing rapidly) companies in the US that are developing some kind of digital vaccine passport.  More than anything, airlines and people that have to consume the data are hoping the IATA Travel Pass project produces an industry standard (as is often the case with IATA) that all the digital passports will have to follow in terms of data format and specs.  As it stands right now the precursor apps to the actual passports (that just manually collect and submit the vaccination data to airlines and suppliers) so far do it in all kinds of different formats with all kinds of different results, which seems to be driving the airlines nuts.

 

Besides the IATA Travel Pass, IBM's Digital Health Pass seems to be the other project of that scale that I keep hearing about.  Of course the fact that Clear used the same name for their health pass originally might be part of the reason I heard about it so much.  🙄

 

Vince

I think authenticating the primary proof of vaccination will be nearly impossible now that millions of people have already received the vaccination cards with no serial numbers or anything else needed to make each card unique.  Whether it is made digital or not, and actually especially if it is made digital, the meaning of "being vaccinated" may become rather meaningless, unless, somehow each of these vaccination cards can be authenticated somehow.

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24 minutes ago, Psoque said:

I think authenticating the primary proof of vaccination will be nearly impossible now that millions of people have already received the vaccination cards with no serial numbers or anything else needed to make each card unique.  Whether it is made digital or not, and actually especially if it is made digital, the meaning of "being vaccinated" may become rather meaningless, unless, somehow each of these vaccination cards can be authenticated somehow.

I agree that it will be extremely difficult to generate authentic proof of vaccination.  There will be too many errors in the database.

 

For example, two friends, my husband, and I were vaccinated at the same facility on the same day.  My husband and I received cards on which the worker entered the wrong date - the previous day.  Later that day, three of us received an electronic confirmation record, which showed that we received the vaccine on the correct day.  My husband did not receive a confirmation.  After following up with the provider, it became clear that his vaccination record was never scanned in.  (Numerous other people had the same issue, and there is no record of their vaccinations.)  We had to send copies of our cards to the provider so that they could correct their records.  They generated an electronic record of my husband’s vaccination showing he received the first dose about 2.5 weeks after he actually received it.  They said they were going to get someone to modify his electronic record to the correct date, but I am not convinced that it happened.  They also said they did not have extra cards to send us corrected versions.

 

If the US government tries to establish a universal record, they will find many errors such as those for my husband.  It will be a massive problem to try to get the database accurate at this point.

 

 

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The irony about the cards is they were developed according to the literature which came out at the time so you know when you got your first vaccine and in most cases they showed the appointment for your second one.  However, at this point I am sure they will be used as your proof you have the vaccinations.

 

Jonanthan, we've done two things.  I've scanned the cards and put the information onto my iPhone, iPad and computer.  Anne Marie found plastic inserts (they are really meant to hold a name tag or some other card and wear around your neck but they hold the card perfectly.  We will keep them with our passports and bring them to the ship that way the same way we bring the yellow fever vaccination card other than the fact we don't place that in a plastic.  While that card is thicker because it folds up I believe our card is 14 years old and has accompanied us on many trips and has been held by Crystal many times and it still looks fine.

 

Keith

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The card I got with my Covid vaccination is similar to the one I got years ago for the yellow fever vaccination. The big difference is that yellow fever is between you and the mosquito vs. Covid that's between you and every person on earth! 😲

 

Patty

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Where / when I got my shots there was also a Maine CDC paper form - with info such as name,, address and other information including areas to be filled in by the person  giving the shot.  Those certainly could be scanned and something done with them.  Unfortunately, when this whole thing is being rolled out I don't think enough thought was given about lasting proof records.

TIme will tell

 

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Posted (edited)

I think the issue with the vaccination data isn't that it's not being collected (they tie me to my flu shot every year, I can't imagine they're going to suddenly stop collecting that data for Covid shots), I think the issue is privacy. 

 

Unless they recently changed the forms, none of that data collected has permission to be accessible by other vendors (the app providers) via a secure web service (or any other cloud use), and if you tried to collect permission a huge chunk of Americans would drop off right off the bat.  That wasn't really an issue until recently, but now it's a BIG issue, and it's one that the US hasn't really hashed out a cohesive national strategy for at all yet.

 

Vince

Edited by BWIVince
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13 hours ago, RLMSLL said:

I agree that it will be extremely difficult to generate authentic proof of vaccination.  There will be too many errors in the database.

 

For example, two friends, my husband, and I were vaccinated at the same facility on the same day.  My husband and I received cards on which the worker entered the wrong date - the previous day.  Later that day, three of us received an electronic confirmation record, which showed that we received the vaccine on the correct day.  My husband did not receive a confirmation.  After following up with the provider, it became clear that his vaccination record was never scanned in.  (Numerous other people had the same issue, and there is no record of their vaccinations.)  We had to send copies of our cards to the provider so that they could correct their records.  They generated an electronic record of my husband’s vaccination showing he received the first dose about 2.5 weeks after he actually received it.  They said they were going to get someone to modify his electronic record to the correct date, but I am not convinced that it happened.  They also said they did not have extra cards to send us corrected versions.

 

If the US government tries to establish a universal record, they will find many errors such as those for my husband.  It will be a massive problem to try to get the database accurate at this point.

 

 

Accuracy of any (future) database can be an issue, but my biggest concern is that it is absolutely impossible to authenticate the vaccination cards for those who has already received the vaccines and it is also impossible to know if any of these cards are not authentic.  Also, those cards were never filled out consistently among different people/places/times.  Only way to have a digital authentication for vaccination for some robust, authenticate-able proof of vaccination to be created at the point of vaccination, which did not occur.  So basically, I can photocopy my vaccination card, remove my name, and sell it to a bunch of people (not that I will do that.)

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On 3/11/2021 at 9:02 AM, ctjon said:

I know this has sort of been discussed but here in the US (got my second yesterday) the card you get is a paper one that is too big to fit in a wallet without folding.   I suspect that they won't last long before getting unreadable.  I hope they issue a more hardy - plastic type or add to drivers license or passport.

It would be horrible to be able to travel but your card isn't in good enough shape to be read and verified.

 

*** LAMINATE IT ***

Seriously, my very trusted doctor told me that's the first stop I should make on the way home. Cost me $5ea and they fit in our passport wallets! 

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As for those who already have their “yellow cards,” the plastic sleeve that holds the yellow card is big enough for the coronavirus vaccine cards.  I have both my yellow card and the coronavirus vaccine card in the same sleeve.  Ideally it would be even better if I had the foresight of bringing my yellow card to my inoculation appointments, and that the vaccinators were prepared/willing to fill out my yellow card with the coronavirus inoculation info.

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I have no sleeve for my yellow card, and since it folds open, it's too big to laminate.  And lamination is questionable anyways--it doesn't confer some kind of magic authenticity.  In fact, I remember years ago when my laminated birth certificate, which I'd had from an early age, became invalid because it was laminated--I had to go through a fairly laborious process to obtain a new coy, unlaminated.

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9 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

I have no sleeve for my yellow card, and since it folds open, it's too big to laminate.  And lamination is questionable anyways--it doesn't confer some kind of magic authenticity.  In fact, I remember years ago when my laminated birth certificate, which I'd had from an early age, became invalid because it was laminated--I had to go through a fairly laborious process to obtain a new coy, unlaminated.

I'm hoping that we won't need these for much longer than a year or two, but every paper card I travel with ends up destroyed after a few weeks.  🙂  

Also, what is a "Yellow Card" if you don't mind?

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, corpkid said:

I'm hoping that we won't need these for much longer than a year or two, but every paper card I travel with ends up destroyed after a few weeks.  🙂  

Also, what is a "Yellow Card" if you don't mind?

Ha!  I had to look!  Myself, I have two yellow cards, one contains a internationally recognized certificate of my yellow fever vaccination, issued by my government but authorized by WHO, with official-looking stamps and the lot number of the vaccine.  I also have a "Personal Immunization Record", which contains general vaccination records that I got within the last 15 years, for trael--Typhoid, Twinrix, Zostavax, that type of thing.  Also a government issue, both yellow.  But I'm Canadian.

Edited by Wendy The Wanderer
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Posted (edited)

Everyone here assumes there is no record of you getting the vaccine. 

At least in Florida there is.  We had to sign a waiver, provide heath insurance info.  All data was entered into data base and verified electronically for the 2nd dose.  Whether this data will be exportable to some other system is a question mark.

 

Another point.  How difficult is it to counterfeit WHO cards (aka Yellow card because it is yellow) and Yellow Fever plus other shot records?

I see no difference in either.  There are too many competing groups creating travel record systems -- ranging from the Chinese Communist Party, Airlines and IATA.  Until someone like ICAO or the WHO standardizes the process all of these will be useless.

Edited by PaulMCO
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23 minutes ago, Wendy The Wanderer said:

Ha!  I had to look!  Myself, I have two yellow cards, one contains a internationally recognized certificate of my yellow fever vaccination, issued by my government but authorized by WHO, with official-looking stamps and the lot number of the vaccine.  I also have a "Personal Immunization Record", which contains general vaccination records that I got within the last 15 years, for trael--Typhoid, Twinrix, Zostavax, that type of thing.  Also a government issue, both yellow.  But I'm Canadian.

Thank you.  Guess I haven't travelled as much as I thought I did as I've yet to need one (yet).

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