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20 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Just wondering........how many of the parents on this forum are willing to vaccinate their children?

 

HI there.  We aren't going to vaccinate our kids until or if there is an approved vaccine with long term data to outline all the possible side effects and long term possibilities.  We're not anti vax but these are my kids.  I'm not willing to have them get an emergency use vax when kids are not effected as much.  That does mean we won't go places that require a vaccine and that's the price we will pay.  My kids are 12 and 15.  When they're 18 they can decide for themselves.  The vaccines that are available today are authorized for emergency use only.  Based on the data, I don't think it's an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  My kids have been in school full time in person since August 24, 2020.  My older son played high school football last Fall around 100 other kids in close quarters during games and workouts without a single case of C19.  Kids are less likely to get C19 and even less likely to spread it.  It's not an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  That's my position on it.  I don't claim to know any more than anyone else. 

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42 minutes ago, Host CMLA said:

 

HI there.  We aren't going to vaccinate our kids until or if there is an approved vaccine with long term data to outline all the possible side effects and long term possibilities.  We're not anti vax but these are my kids.  I'm not willing to have them get an emergency use vax when kids are not effected as much.  That does mean we won't go places that require a vaccine and that's the price we will pay.  My kids are 12 and 15.  When they're 18 they can decide for themselves.  The vaccines that are available today are authorized for emergency use only.  Based on the data, I don't think it's an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  My kids have been in school full time in person since August 24, 2020.  My older son played high school football last Fall around 100 other kids in close quarters during games and workouts without a single case of C19.  Kids are less likely to get C19 and even less likely to spread it.  It's not an emergency for my kids to get the vaccine.  That's my position on it.  I don't claim to know any more than anyone else. 

Makes sense... 

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3 hours ago, agrimm01 said:

As Dr. Fauci said, you don't need to wear masks.  They don't provide protection.  Three months later, everybody should be wearing masks.  They provide great protection.  Sometimes wear two.

Science doesn't change.  Only our interpretation of it changes.

I hope that you understand that the science does change, constantly.
 

As the science changes, so does the guidance.
 

Our treatments for COVID today are vastly different today than a year ago. I don’t think that you would want the treatments from April 2020 in the hospital if you contracted COVID today,,, the death rates with those treatments were astronomical.The guidance on how to prevent spread has also evolved. 
 

And treatments and guidance will be vastly different a year from now as COVID transitions to an endemic. And in April 2022, we will look back at April 2021 and 2020 and say, “what were they thinking back then “

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On 4/9/2021 at 10:46 AM, RocketMan275 said:

Three points.

First,  you have only provided weak hearsay evidence of your allegation that 20 students caused vacationing in Florida caused this outbreak.  

Two, do  you have any evidence that masking, etc., saved millions?

Three, what evidence is there that one person infects four others? 

Rocket, I've followed your posts for like 30 pages of this thread, and frankly your need to be 'right' about 'mask freedom,' even when presented with very caring and supported information is quite disturbing.

 

Why do you need to be right about this so badly?  Even if you are right, why wouldn't you want to support masks as at least reducing the stress levels of others fearing contagiousness, as a 'placebo.'

 

Being anti mask only seems positive in the sense that it confirms a highly politicised bias among people who supported a certain politician.  Perhaps that groupd cant quite deal with a reality that their political decisions and affilliations likely killed hundreds of thousands of people, so their brains create all sorts of spin doctoring of reality, then find confirmation among like minded media.

 

I get that that the guilt might support all sorts of rationalizations.  Did you at one time think Covid19 was a hoax with exaggerated issues and would never become a big issue, or just 'go away' as some Brazillian and other conservative political leaders claimed because they didnt want an economic dip during their administations from an economic sbut down?

 

Seriously, have you ever thought you might be wrong about something ever?

 

I get it.  As a kid I really admired Nixon and thought he was being rail roaded even during the Watergate hearings. Just couldnt believe the guy who opened China was corrupt and would lie to win. 

 

On topic, I support mandatory vaccinations and a restart (without mask mandate) of cruising once covid levels are at a set figure.

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45 minutes ago, Pizzasteve said:

Rocket, I've followed your posts for like 30 pages of this thread, and frankly your need to be 'right' about 'mask freedom,' even when presented with very caring and supported information is quite disturbing.

 

Why do you need to be right about this so badly?  Even if you are right, why wouldn't you want to support masks as at least reducing the stress levels of others fearing contagiousness, as a 'placebo.'

 

Being anti mask only seems positive in the sense that it confirms a highly politicised bias among people who supported a certain politician.  Perhaps that groupd cant quite deal with a reality that their political decisions and affilliations likely killed hundreds of thousands of people, so their brains create all sorts of spin doctoring of reality, then find confirmation among like minded media.

 

I get that that the guilt might support all sorts of rationalizations.  Did you at one time think Covid19 was a hoax with exaggerated issues and would never become a big issue, or just 'go away' as some Brazillian and other conservative political leaders claimed because they didnt want an economic dip during their administations from an economic sbut down?

 

Seriously, have you ever thought you might be wrong about something ever?

 

I get it.  As a kid I really admired Nixon and thought he was being rail roaded even during the Watergate hearings. Just couldnt believe the guy who opened China was corrupt and would lie to win. 

 

On topic, I support mandatory vaccinations and a restart (without mask mandate) of cruising once covid levels are at a set figure.

 

Mask wearing may be a political issue for some.  There is also some validity in tests that have been done to show how masks aren't 100% effective.  If one mask was effective, why wear two or three that some wear?  The gaiter masks that the kids like are worse than not wearing anything at all but that's an acceptable mask for schools or anywhere really.  Fauci did say in March of last year that the mask was ineffective and would only give a false sense of security.  The science has developed over the last year but again, cloth masks aren't near as effective as N95 masks.  There are also dangers to wearing the mask.  There's been a huge uptick in cases of impetigo, especially among children.  My son, for example, got a small scratch on his nose and within a few days his entire nose was inflamed, bloody, oozing, etc because of infection most probably caused from the mask.  His doctor said that.  Not me.  His doctor said he's seeing it every week now.  Kids putting on and taking off the masks, not having the cleanest hands, masks falling on the floor, etc.  They're not clean.  The infection started spreading to other parts of my son's face that the mask covers but no where else on his face.  He was out of school for a week and in a lot of pain.  If masks should be worn then I think there should be a mask criteria.  There isn't so you're really relying on the mask wearer to be using something that actually stops particles.  Not all masks are created equal. 

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27 minutes ago, Host CMLA said:

 

Mask wearing may be a political issue for some.  There is also some validity in tests that have been done to show how masks aren't 100% effective.  If one mask was effective, why wear two or three that some wear?  The gaiter masks that the kids like are worse than not wearing anything at all but that's an acceptable mask for schools or anywhere really.  Fauci did say in March of last year that the mask was ineffective and would only give a false sense of security.  The science has developed over the last year but again, cloth masks aren't near as effective as N95 masks.  There are also dangers to wearing the mask.  There's been a huge uptick in cases of impetigo, especially among children.  My son, for example, got a small scratch on his nose and within a few days his entire nose was inflamed, bloody, oozing, etc because of infection most probably caused from the mask.  His doctor said that.  Not me.  His doctor said he's seeing it every week now.  Kids putting on and taking off the masks, not having the cleanest hands, masks falling on the floor, etc.  They're not clean.  The infection started spreading to other parts of my son's face that the mask covers but no where else on his face.  He was out of school for a week and in a lot of pain.  If masks should be worn then I think there should be a mask criteria.  There isn't so you're really relying on the mask wearer to be using something that actually stops particles.  Not all masks are created equal.

There are all kinds of health issues with the mask wearing....your son's is a good example. Another little tidbit.. Health Canada recently asked distributors of masks containing graphene to recall same due to health risks of inhaling particles, although they haven't as yet given more specifics. These have been used widely, including schools.

 

These masks were initially touted for their antibacterial effects. Gut feeling here...more to come and definitely not what many will be happy hearing.

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23 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I'm glad you are able to cruise, sincerely and I'll be thrilled to read your trip report.

 

But since when is providing facts a spin?

 

However; if you NEED to believe that "we know what works and we know what doesn't" I can understand. I fully acknowledge that the media has done a solid job attacking our mental health.

I don’t “need” to believe in the efficacy of the COVID vaccines.  I “DO”  believe the COVID vaccines are highly effective.  My Drs believe in the COVID vaccines’ effectiveness, too.  Anyone I know who is qualified has made the same recommendations regarding the efficacy of the vaccines.

 

I have both my Pfizer shots.  Feel great!  That means I get to cruise, but that’s not the reason I got the shots.  

 

Y’all can keep debating this if you want, but I’ll bow out..  I’ll instruct my family to let all of you know if I grow 3 eyes or kick the bucket as a result of getting my COVID shots.

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52 minutes ago, Host CMLA said:

 

Mask wearing may be a political issue for some.  There is also some validity in tests that have been done to show how masks aren't 100% effective.  If one mask was effective, why wear two or three that some wear?  The gaiter masks that the kids like are worse than not wearing anything at all but that's an acceptable mask for schools or anywhere really.  Fauci did say in March of last year that the mask was ineffective and would only give a false sense of security.  The science has developed over the last year but again, cloth masks aren't near as effective as N95 masks.  There are also dangers to wearing the mask.  There's been a huge uptick in cases of impetigo, especially among children.  My son, for example, got a small scratch on his nose and within a few days his entire nose was inflamed, bloody, oozing, etc because of infection most probably caused from the mask.  His doctor said that.  Not me.  His doctor said he's seeing it every week now.  Kids putting on and taking off the masks, not having the cleanest hands, masks falling on the floor, etc.  They're not clean.  The infection started spreading to other parts of my son's face that the mask covers but no where else on his face.  He was out of school for a week and in a lot of pain.  If masks should be worn then I think there should be a mask criteria.  There isn't so you're really relying on the mask wearer to be using something that actually stops particles.  Not all masks are created equal. 

No one ever said that masks were 100% effective.  The do however significantly reduce aerosol droplets from a single person wearing a mask.  They are even more effective when two or more persons are not socially distanced.  There is plenty of science backing up the effectiveness of masks in preventing spread, but they must be worn properly and other health protocols need to be followed.  Dr. Fauci made the comments that he did in early March of last year before a number of things were known about how the virus spread, including asymptomatic infection.  His comments were largely taken out of context and have been used as a political hammer ever since, to great detriment.  He clearly clarified his position shortly thereafter.  Dr. Fauci and the CDC have set out guidance regarding what type of masks are recommended and how to wear them.  That is why when flying on an airplane the FAA does not allow masks like bandanas or gaiters and repeatedly reinforces that masks be worn over the nose and mouth.  People have also been advised that it is fine to wear two masks (a cloth one over a surgical one) in order to provide further protection.  They have never said everyone should do so.  

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5 hours ago, agrimm01 said:

As Dr. Fauci said, you don't need to wear masks.  They don't provide protection.  Three months later, everybody should be wearing masks.  They provide great protection.  Sometimes wear two.

Science doesn't change.  Only our interpretation of it changes.

NOT TRUE and that is not what Dr. Fauci has said. Masks are more effective for SOURCE CONTROL and less effective for protection. Please do not perpetuate inaccurate information.

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4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

NOT TRUE and that is not what Dr. Fauci has said. Masks are more effective for SOURCE CONTROL and less effective for protection. Please do not perpetuate inaccurate information.

I think it is hopeless trying to use logic with the mask truthers.  The posts have no logical consistency, they ignore all the data about how mask wearing (of all types to varing degrees) reduces the spread of this virus, they ignore the fact that every medical advisor to hundreds of countries all encourage mask use, but instead focus on a random dubious source saying maybe some issue might occur under extremely unlikely conditions, with no sense of how a one in a million issue is not good logic.

 

These type of people were able to be convinced well known newscasters and celebs drink the blood of babies for their health or some such nonsense.  It is hopeless, their confirmation bias is too strong for words to penetrate.

 

Variable levels of effectiveness, fit, differences among masks and other nuances will be used to feed their predisposition.  Hey, I dont enjoy wearing a mask either, but researched the impacts and wear them just as I did when ill and riding the subways (since we lived in Japan in the 90s).  I expect these folks never even considered wearing a mask to protect others when sick in public before this pandemic.  Like several I saw on my last cruise, they just joined the buffet line and coughed on the food of others while loading up their plates.

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10 hours ago, graphicguy said:

I don’t “need” to believe in the efficacy of the COVID vaccines.  I “DO”  believe the COVID vaccines are highly effective.  My Drs believe in the COVID vaccines’ effectiveness, too.  Anyone I know who is qualified has made the same recommendations regarding the efficacy of the vaccines.

 

I have both my Pfizer shots.  Feel great!  That means I get to cruise, but that’s not the reason I got the shots.  

 

Y’all can keep debating this if you want, but I’ll bow out..  I’ll instruct my family to let all of you know if I grow 3 eyes or kick the bucket as a result of getting my COVID shots.


Looks like you missed the entire point. I happen to agree that the current vaccines appear to be very effective.

 

However; Because the virus is fluid, what works today may not work tomorrow.  Claiming “we know what works and we know what doesn’t” is dangerously short sighted. Even the scientists are hesitant to make such sweeping claims.  A more accurate description might be “we think we know what works TODAY and we think we know what doesn’t” 

 

Here’s to cruising this summer with a healthy pulse and two eyes. I wish you a marvelous vacation. No one will be a more thrilled spectator than myself :). 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Pizzasteve said:

Rocket, I've followed your posts for like 30 pages of this thread, and frankly your need to be 'right' about 'mask freedom,' even when presented with very caring and supported information is quite disturbing.

 

Why do you need to be right about this so badly?  Even if you are right, why wouldn't you want to support masks as at least reducing the stress levels of others fearing contagiousness, as a 'placebo.'

 

Being anti mask only seems positive in the sense that it confirms a highly politicised bias among people who supported a certain politician.  Perhaps that groupd cant quite deal with a reality that their political decisions and affilliations likely killed hundreds of thousands of people, so their brains create all sorts of spin doctoring of reality, then find confirmation among like minded media.

 

I get that that the guilt might support all sorts of rationalizations.  Did you at one time think Covid19 was a hoax with exaggerated issues and would never become a big issue, or just 'go away' as some Brazillian and other conservative political leaders claimed because they didnt want an economic dip during their administations from an economic sbut down?

 

Where have I said COVID was a hoax with exaggerated issues?  I have said our reaction to COVID was an overreaction.  I fully support those who think they need to wear a mask. I even support those driving alone in their car wearing their masks with the windows fully closed.  I do not support their insistence that everyone else should wear a mask to reduce their stress levels.  

 

There is no reason to try to drag political red herrings into this discussion.  If those 'politicised' persons killed 'hundreds of thousands' then the rates of infection, illnesses, and deaths should be far lower in the states like MI, NJ, NY, PA, yet that isn't the case is it?

 

It seems to me that the 'need to be right' is far more concentrated in MI, NJ, NY, and PA where politicians continue to double down on their lockdowns, mask mandates, etc., which states like TX and FL have shown to be unjustified.  

 

And, no, I feel no guilt but I do wonder about the self-righteousness displayed in the attempts to blame the deaths of hundreds of millions on those of differing political beliefs.

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Just to put a punctuation mark on NCL’s decision to require COVID vaccines for all crew and passengers upon their re-launch of sailing, they’ve assembled an impressive list of folks to advise them.....

 

The Company further extended its depth and breadth of experts with the formation of its SailSAFE Global Health and Wellness Council, comprised of six experts at the forefront of their fields and led by Chairman Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former Commissioner of the FDA and Co-Chair of the Healthy Sail Panel. The Council’s work will complement the HSP initiative and will focus on the implementation, compliance with and continuous improvement of health and safety protocols across the Company’s operations. The Council was assembled in mid-2020 and has been advising the Company on the development of its SailSAFE program. Subject matter experts joining Dr. Scott Gottlieb are:

Dr. Steven Ostroff, MD, former acting commissioner of the FDA and former Deputy Director of the National Center for Infectious Diseases at the CDC.
Dr. Phyllis Kozarsky, MD, Professor Emerita in Medicine and Infectious Diseases at Emory University, Co-Founder of the International Society of Travel Medicine.
Caitlin Rivers PhD, Assistant Professor in the Department of Environmental Health and Engineering at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
Kate Walsh, PhD, Dean of the School of Hotel Administration at Cornell University.
John Mason, CEO and Chairman of The Sabre Companies with extensive experience in developing sanitation and disinfection technology to minimize microbial contamination risk to both human and non-human health.

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On 4/10/2021 at 2:06 PM, BirdTravels said:

I hope that you understand that the science does change, constantly.


Speak for yourself, but I'm pretty sure we all know Galileo was just trying to control all of us and destroy humanity #heliocentrismisaLIE 😉

 

13 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

However; Because the virus is fluid, what works today may not work tomorrow.


This is key, because we're basically in a race against time. Viruses only mutate (and create new strains) when they spread throughout communities. The best way to prevent this? Vaccinate everyone as quickly as possible (also known as herd/community immunity). 

We're quite lucky in that many of the vaccines have proven to be highly effective with some of the newer strains (British, South African) of the novel coronavirus, especially the Pfizer vaccine. 

The best way to knock this out and get back to normal is by reaching that critical mass of vaccinated people. While there's a lot of talk about "personal choices" and doing what's right for you, I ultimately had to think about everyone in my community as the best motivator for getting vaccinated. 

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23 hours ago, coffeebean said:

NOT TRUE and that is not what Dr. Fauci has said. Masks are more effective for SOURCE CONTROL and less effective for protection. Please do not perpetuate inaccurate information.

Like the main stream media, this is out of context. and perpetuates inaccurate information. 
 

Some masks are designed for effective protection. Those are the masks that I wear when out in places with limited social distancing (e.g., the local market, Costco, etc). 

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8 minutes ago, AstoriaPreppy said:

Speak for yourself, but I'm pretty sure we all know Galileo was just trying to control all of us and destroy humanity #heliocentrismisaLIE 😉

I speak for the science which constantly evolves. Today, Pfizer and Moderna are working on vaccine adaptations for new strains and are both in trials for  boosters. Some like to take comments from a year ago, out of context, and claim that the science is wrong. The science  changes every day. And what we say today is different than a year ago or even a month ago. 
 

 

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I thought this thread got locked a week ago. I feel like we've beaten it to death. Anyway, here's, my opinion:

  • Mandatory vaccination is only temporary as a way to get cruising started ASAP
  • If you don't want to get vaccinated, there are other vacation options, or you can wait until probably November
  • Science says that vaccinations work, even against the variants. But it's still your choice whether or not to to it. No one has the right to make you get one, but companies still have the right to deny service 
  • NCL said that they could survive 18 months without sailing, so unless they get going by September, they are headed for death. They can't afford an outbreak, so all vaccinated cruises are their best bet

In conclusion, make your own choices, but IMO NCL has the same right to make the best choices as a brand. Mods, I don't know why this was opened back up again. It's getting political and nasty.

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On 4/10/2021 at 4:30 PM, coffeebean said:

NOT TRUE and that is not what Dr. Fauci has said. Masks are more effective for SOURCE CONTROL and less effective for protection. Please do not perpetuate inaccurate information.

Totally true, quit making things up:

Fauci first spoke about the wearing of masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic during a March interview with 60 Minutes.
"Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," Fauci said during the interview. "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask."
He continued, "When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is."

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On 4/11/2021 at 6:00 AM, RocketMan275 said:

Where have I said COVID was a hoax with exaggerated issues?  I have said our reaction to COVID was an overreaction.  I fully support those who think they need to wear a mask. I even support those driving alone in their car wearing their masks with the windows fully closed.  I do not support their insistence that everyone else should wear a mask to reduce their stress levels.  

 

There is no reason to try to drag political red herrings into this discussion.  If those 'politicised' persons killed 'hundreds of thousands' then the rates of infection, illnesses, and deaths should be far lower in the states like MI, NJ, NY, PA, yet that isn't the case is it?

 

It seems to me that the 'need to be right' is far more concentrated in MI, NJ, NY, and PA where politicians continue to double down on their lockdowns, mask mandates, etc., which states like TX and FL have shown to be unjustified.  

 

And, no, I feel no guilt but I do wonder about the self-righteousness displayed in the attempts to blame the deaths of hundreds of millions on those of differing political beliefs.

The tone of your post says it all.  As someone who was hired by C level executives at global multinationals to advise them on analysis of data and strategy, I can suggest your understanding of this issue and the logic behind your 'analysis' is quite incomplete.

 

I could post charts showing the crystal clear linkage between mask compliance levels and spread rates, but I dont have the legal rights to do so in public.  They are out there though if you bothered to actually research the question, rather than parrot you favorite media spin doctor. It is pretty clear you are looking for confirmation of a predisposed view, hence the tone and 'extra' meaningless words, which when I advised clients was the worst mistake one can make.

 

Has nothing to do with politicians.  You want to dismiss others with false strawmen and all the usual fallacies.  Go forth.  Make yourself feel good.

 

PS.  Regarding the early statements that masks might be ineffective, I am sure they were regretted and its been said so.  Spokespeople under heavy political pressure will make mistakes (the former President clearly was pressuring to not suggest a mask mandate, because it would be politically unpopular in America, not because of any science, and still does. Americans hate being told to do something they dont want to do).  We are petulant children.  It should have been made very clear that he meant, absent wide community spead, masks might not be helpful at protecting an individual, but once the virus was widespread and community spread takes hold, we all need to mask up to keep it from speading to far.  Masks were about as effective at limiting community spread from the non sympomatic early days (when people are unknowingly shedding virus) for the original virus as flue shots are for the annual flu.  Not 100% effective of course, but if everyone had masked up and sustained it we would have seen the virus levels like Japan. With the varients being more contagious, they are less effective, but still helpful.  Its like saying condoms are useless as birth control because not 100% effective.

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4 hours ago, agrimm01 said:

Totally true, quit making things up:

Fauci first spoke about the wearing of masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic during a March interview with 60 Minutes.
"Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," Fauci said during the interview. "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask."
He continued, "When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is."

Spot on, and yet the people who insist masks are the be-all, end-all will tell you on the one hand that "science can change its mind based on new information" but also "whatever science says today must be accepted, believed and adhered to without question." WHICH IS IT? Can scientific recommendations change or can't they? If they can't, then I guess you think scientists are lying when they said "masks don't work" but now "they do work." If science CAN change its mind, then that means those of us in the public aren't anti-science, we just acknowledge that what is a recommended guideline on Day 1 could be contradicted on Day 30, or Day 365, etc.

IOW if you accept that scientific information can change, then that means those who occasionally question that information might end up being right.

 

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21 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Like the main stream media, this is out of context. and perpetuates inaccurate information. 
 

Some masks are designed for effective protection. Those are the masks that I wear when out in places with limited social distancing (e.g., the local market, Costco, etc). 

I stand corrected. Most folks are aware that the N95 and KN95 masks provide protection to the wearer. The surgical and home made masks are the masks I was referring to in that post which I stated those masks are more effective for source control.

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7 hours ago, agrimm01 said:

Totally true, quit making things up:

Fauci first spoke about the wearing of masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic during a March interview with 60 Minutes.
"Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," Fauci said during the interview. "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask."
He continued, "When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is."

This is OLD, OLD, OLD, OLD, OLD news. Did I say this is old news? Oh please!!!!!

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1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

This is OLD, OLD, OLD, OLD, OLD news. Did I say this is old news? Oh please!!!!!

Yes, it's old.  Nothing has changed from the day he said it.  Masks either are effective or are not.  Saying they didn't know much about the virus at the time is BS. 

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6 hours ago, Pizzasteve said:

I could post charts showing the crystal clear linkage between mask compliance levels and spread rates, but I dont have the legal rights to do so in public.  

 

Has nothing to do with politicians.  You want to dismiss others with false strawmen and all the usual fallacies.  Go forth.  Make yourself feel good.

 

That really doesn't help your credibility.    I've had people tell me for over forty years that they have information proving I'm wrong and their right but they just can't possibly share that information.  One of the oldest tricks in the book.

 

I must also point out that you were the first to interject politics into this discussion in an attempt to psychoanalyze me accusing me of having guilt feelings over the politicians you imagine that I support: Your post #704.

 

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