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7 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 the hospital has a responsibility to keep one safe from all viruses

Hahaha.....hospitals are the WORST.....sick people everywhere and resistant germs abound!

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5 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

Hahaha.....hospitals are the WORST.....sick people everywhere and resistant germs abound!

 

This is so true. But it does not allow a hospital to be irresponsible w/ their medical staff. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I don't think anyone is judging the medical field in general, but specifically, if one goes to a hospital or is administered to a nursing home, the hospital has a responsibility to keep one safe from all viruses. The last place I would think I'd be getting covid is at a hospital or Dr.'s office. If so, someone is liable if they allow their patients to be around their medical personnel that has covid. 


Assuming staff are vaccinated is a very naive assumption.
 

Unfortunately many medical staff in Texas have chosen not to be vaccinated. You have no idea if the staff that are treating you or your family have been vaccinated or not.

Edited by c-leg5
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1 minute ago, c-leg5 said:


That is a very naive assumption.
 

Unfortunately many medical staff in Texas have chosen not to be vaccinated. You have no idea if the staff that are treating you or your family have been vaccinated or not.

 

I think you my friend are the one being naive. While what you say holds some truths, you can bet your bottom dollar if a member of my family was covid infected from medical staff it would be found out in the 'Discovery' process. 

 

And suddenly.... now that vaccines are about us... we are now hearing that individuals in the medical field can ignore the same science that we've been lectured on for a year. pfft. 

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2 hours ago, ONECRUISER said:

Wow, Interesting. In "Texas" By State Law a Company can force an Employee to take this "Emergency Authorized Use" Vaccine? Like said even a month ago in Detroit area some Hospitals was up to 40% Medical Persons declining, some as wait and see... In Military I was received couple Vaccines, w/o choice, these were Experimental not even authorized for Civilians, guess different now

Actually the EEOC has said it is ok for companies to mandate the vaccine across the country with some accomodations for the medically compromised. 

On Wednesday, December 16, 2020, the EEOC delivered welcome news in the form of a revised pandemic guidance concluding that employers generally can mandate that employees receive a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-authorized or approved COVID-19 vaccine.

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23 minutes ago, cured said:

Actually the EEOC has said it is ok for companies to mandate the vaccine across the country with some accomodations for the medically compromised. 

On Wednesday, December 16, 2020, the EEOC delivered welcome news in the form of a revised pandemic guidance concluding that employers generally can mandate that employees receive a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-authorized or approved COVID-19 vaccine.

But they must accommodate those with medical or religious exemptions. 
 

 

There are options for employees who can’t get a vaccine due to a disability or who do not wish to get a vaccine. Workers can seek a vaccine exemption on medical grounds or due to religious beliefs, said Dorit Reiss, a law professor at the University of California, Hastings, who specializes in legal and policy issues related to vaccines.

Reiss said that if employees have medical reasons or sincerely held religious beliefs that prevent them from receiving a vaccine, employers may be required to give the workers a reasonable alternative to continue to work. Also, the EEOC guidance said that even if an employer finds that a worker who cannot be vaccinated poses a risk to the workplace, the employer cannot prevent the employee from working or fire them unless the employer cannot provide a reasonable accommodation that would reduce this risk to others.

“That might be a [wearing a] mask, a working from home, or a working separately from other people alternative. As long as it’s not too significant a barrier for the employer,” Reiss told the AARP Bulletin. “If you can achieve the same level of safety as the vaccine via mask, or remote working, you can’t fire the employee. You need to give them an accommodation.”

 

I don't think many companies will force employees to receive the vaccine.....just too many potential problems.

 

I do not believe that there are long term ramifications to the vaccine, but I can see lawsuits in the future. "If you were forced into getting the Covid vaccine and suffered from X, Y or Z, you might be entitled to compensation.....call 555-1212"

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32 minutes ago, cured said:

On Wednesday, December 16, 2020, the EEOC delivered welcome news in the form of a revised pandemic guidance concluding that employers generally can mandate that employees receive a U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-authorized or approved COVID-19 vaccine.

The problem is in the wording......"FDA authorized or approved".....right now the FDA has approved it for "emergency use". Some lawyers will have a field day with the wording if mandated by employers. 
 

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1 minute ago, CaroleSS said:

But they must accommodate those with medical or religious exemptions. 
 

 

There are options for employees who can’t get a vaccine due to a disability or who do not wish to get a vaccine. Workers can seek a vaccine exemption on medical grounds or due to religious beliefs, said Dorit Reiss, a law professor at the University of California, Hastings, who specializes in legal and policy issues related to vaccines.

Reiss said that if employees have medical reasons or sincerely held religious beliefs that prevent them from receiving a vaccine, employers may be required to give the workers a reasonable alternative to continue to work. Also, the EEOC guidance said that even if an employer finds that a worker who cannot be vaccinated poses a risk to the workplace, the employer cannot prevent the employee from working or fire them unless the employer cannot provide a reasonable accommodation that would reduce this risk to others.

“That might be a [wearing a] mask, a working from home, or a working separately from other people alternative. As long as it’s not too significant a barrier for the employer,” Reiss told the AARP Bulletin. “If you can achieve the same level of safety as the vaccine via mask, or remote working, you can’t fire the employee. You need to give them an accommodation.”

 

I don't think many companies will force employees to receive the vaccine.....just too many potential problems.

 

I do not believe that there are long term ramifications to the vaccine, but I can see lawsuits in the future. "If you were forced into getting the Covid vaccine and suffered from X, Y or Z, you might be entitled to compensation.....call 555-1212"

yes, I mentioned the accomodations for the medically fragile. And you cannot ask for an exemption just because you don't want it. You have to have sincerely held religious beliefs. And your belief cannot be "I don't want to vaccine."  

 

Somehow I wouldn't trust a ambulance chaser article that ends their article with a phone number.

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3 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

The problem is in the wording......"FDA authorized or approved".....right now the FDA has approved it for "emergency use". Some lawyers will have a field day with the wording if mandated by employers. 
 

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/eeoc-says-employers-may-mandate-covid-19-vaccinations-subject-to-limitations

The following summary of the guidance provides some helpful information for employers on this complex topic: 

  1. Can an employer require that employees receive one of the new FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccinations?

ANSWER: Generally, yes.  The EEOC stated that equal employment opportunity laws “do not interfere with or prevent employers from following CDC or other federal, state, and local public health authorities’ guidance and suggestions.”  However, there are potential complications that employers must consider before implementing a mandatory vaccination program.

The EEOC confirmed that vaccination itself is not a medical examination, but it also pointed out that certain medical-related questions need to be posed to an individual before the vaccine is given to assure that the person does not have a medical condition that makes the vaccine unsafe. The EEOC explains that those questions can constitute “disability-related inquiries” regulated by the ADA, which employers may only ask under certain circumstances.

Notably, the EEOC indicates that the limitations on asking those disability-related inquiries do not exist when the vaccine is given (and the questions posed) by a third party that is not controlled by the employer such as a pharmacy or healthcare provider rather than by the employer directly or by a healthcare provider working under contract for the employer.  It also explained that it is permissible for an employer to offer the vaccination to employees on a voluntary basis, provided that the employee’s decision to answer pre-screening, disability-related questions is entirely voluntary.

Certainly, the most significant limitation on a mandatory program is that the employer has to ensure that it properly considers requested exemptions by an employee from the vaccination requirement because of the worker’s (i) sincerely held religious beliefs protected under Title VII or (ii) medical conditions which make receipt of the vaccine dangerous or otherwise inappropriate for that individual consistent with the reasonable accommodation requirements of the ADA.

  1. Can an employer ask an employee if he or she has already received the vaccine or, similarly, require proof that the employee has been vaccinated?

ANSWER:  Generally, yes. The EEOC guidance explains that these particular questions do not constitute a “disability-related inquiry” because an employee may choose not to have the vaccine for a variety of reasons wholly unrelated to any medical condition.  However, an employer has to meet certain requirements if it wants to find out why an employee has not received the vaccine. Questioning the employee about the reasons that individual has not been vaccinated does constitute a “disability-related inquiry” because of the possibility that it will elicit information about a disability.

That inquiry can only be made, according to the EEOC, if the question is “job-related and consistent with business necessity” as provided under the ADA. To meet this job-relatedness standard, the employer will need to establish that the worker’s failure to be vaccinated would pose a “direct threat” to the well-being of that employee or others with whom the employee would have contact as part of his or her job duties. Language elsewhere in the EEOC pandemic guidance suggests that an employer should be able to establish that “direct threat” standard if the employee has significant contact with other workers or third parties as part of performing his or her job duties.

  1. Can an employer have its own medical staff or a contracted healthcare provider conduct the vaccinations?

ANSWER:  Generally, yes. The EEOC guidance does not suggest an employer is barred from having its own in-house vaccination program or contracting directly with an outside healthcare provider to administer the vaccinations to the company’s employees. However, as indicated above, the EEOC does indicate that there are potential limitations on the employer either directly, or through a contracted service provider, asking pre-vaccination medical questions.  For that reason, some employers may mandate the vaccine but not administer it directly to employees.

  1. Can an employer fire an employee who refuses to be vaccinated?  

ANSWER:  Possibly, in limited circumstances.  The EEOC guidance reminds employers that it will need to make reasonable accommodations to employees seeking an exemption due to disability-related reasons or religious objections and will need to follow the established reasonable accommodation process under either the ADA or Title VII before taking any adverse employment actions.  The EEOC cautions employers that if it can establish that an employee who is not vaccinated poses a direct threat (that cannot be accommodated without an undue hardship), the employer can exclude the employee from the worksite, but the employer cannot terminate the employee without further consideration of the employee’s legal protections or other possible accommodation, including whether the employee can perform his or her job remotely.  In assessing hardship, the EEOC noted that the prevalence in the workplace of employees who already have received a COVID-19 vaccination and the amount of contact with others, whose vaccination status could be unknown, may impact the undue hardship consideration.

  1. Does the EEOC guidance mean that all employers should adopt a mandatory vaccination program?

ANSWER:  Not necessarily; a mandatory vaccination program may not be the best choice for many employers.  First, any such program would require that employers implement appropriate procedures with respect to processing of disability and religious accommodation requests.  Any employer with a mandatory vaccine program must ensure that there is no retaliation against employees who request an accommodation under the ADA or Title VII.  There may also be retaliation protection under Section 11(c) of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 pertaining to whistle blower rights for an employee who refuses vaccination because of a reasonable belief that he or she has a medical condition that creates a real danger of serious illness or death (such as serious reaction to the vaccine).

Further, polling data continues to show that a significant percentage of Americans prefer not to receive the COVID-19 vaccine.  Some employees, for example, may be wary of the vaccine given how rapidly it was developed.  As a way of recognizing this issue, the EEOC guidance points out that the FDA authorization for these COVID-19 vaccines is only pursuant to the Emergency Use Authorization standard—which is different than an FDA approval (licensure) of a vaccine—and therefore these vaccines have not received all of the prolonged consideration by the FDA that is typical of common vaccinations such as the vaccines for seasonal influenza or chickenpox. 

As a result, employers mandating the vaccine should be prepared for some resistance from employees.  Additionally, it is important to remember that the EEOC guidance is only that—guidance—and not a law. Consequently, some employees may still legally challenge mandatory vaccination programs under various theories and there is no guarantee that a court will react favorably to a particular legal challenge. There are also, as explained above, important legal nuances and limitations with a mandatory program even under the EEOC’s guidance.

Also, while not an EEO issue, for employers with a unionized workforce, the employer must consider bargaining requirements prior to unilaterally implementing a mandatory vaccine policy.  Additionally, employers may need to consider state law obstacles to mandatory vaccination in some jurisdictions.

What is clear is that if an employer wants to pursue a mandatory vaccination program, the company’s management, together with its legal and HR teams, should engage in significant planning and develop a program detailing how the process will work from beginning to end and carefully consider the potential legal limitations identified by the EEOC in its guidance.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, cured said:

yes, I mentioned the accomodations for the medically fragile. And you cannot ask for an exemption just because you don't want it. You have to have sincerely held religious beliefs. And your belief cannot be "I don't want to vaccine."  

 

Somehow I wouldn't trust a ambulance chaser article that ends their article with a phone number.

The article ended with the first paragraph....the rest was my ramblings. I do believe that the vaccine will help, but I just have trepidations about employers mandating the vaccine. Big can o'worms!

Edited by CaroleSS
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Re: cured 

not the word "generally"......

 

unfortunately we are a litigious society with waaay too many ambulance chasers per capita. I just think corporate attorneys will provide some leeway in "mandating" a vaccine, just too much risk involved with a mandate.

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32 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

Re: cured 

not the word "generally"......

 

unfortunately we are a litigious society with waaay too many ambulance chasers per capita. I just think corporate attorneys will provide some leeway in "mandating" a vaccine, just too much risk involved with a mandate.

I agree. However there is already some Supreme Court precedent in the 1905 Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 ruling upholding Massachusetts right to mandate the smallpox vaccine for everyone, concluding that the health of the majority was more important than the rights of the individual that could possibly help employers.

 

There are also workarounds that employers can use that will make it very difficult to not choose to vaccinate. For instance, my work has not mandated the vaccine, but we do have to provide proof of vaccine or a statement that we are declining to vaccinate. I just got the email today (our industry just came up as eligible) that we must provide a copy of the covid certificate we received when we were vaccinated. 

 

If you choose to not vaccinate, you will be required to quarantine for 14 days unpaid every.single.time there is a positive case or you have been exposed outside the work place. If you choose not to vaccinate, you must quarantine for 14 days unpaid if you travel out of state.  The employer is making it very difficult to earn a salary if you don't vaccinate.

 

If you are fully vaccinated, per the CDC, you don't need to quarantine unless you symptomatic. And the quarantine wil be for far fewer days.

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On 3/4/2021 at 6:03 PM, loman said:

And they are so big . They look to be about 1 1/2  -  2  inches long .

 

I   hate needles, too but honestly, I did not even feel the 1st shot and the 2nd one wasn't bad either....but I did feel it a little.  sore arm each time  after about 6 - 8 hours and it lasted  for maybe 12 hours.  Just felt like a bruise.  

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On 3/4/2021 at 2:41 PM, lovescats5 said:

Well, what about the younger kids that cannot get a vaccine.  RCI will lose a lot of business if they exclude kids.  And give me the website that says if you get the vaccine you are fully protected and you cannot infect anyone else.  Cannot figure out why everyone thinks the vaccine is the ultimate end all.

They may Binex the kids until they do more studies about the COVID shots in kids.

 

I am fully vaccinated, but I don't think of it as the end all.  I think of it more like the 1918 flu pandemic: like the flu shot that we get every year, we may have to get the COVID shot every year.  In essence, what we get with the flu shot is a booster shot for the flu virus.  It may be the same with the COVID shot....in essence, that's what the second COVID shot is.

 

What they hope to do with the vaccine is use it to make the COVID virus less likely to spread to others.  If the virus can't find a host, it loses some ability to be able to mutate and pass on to others.

Edited by broadwaybaby123
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On 3/4/2021 at 2:41 PM, lovescats5 said:

Well, what about the younger kids that cannot get a vaccine.  RCI will lose a lot of business if they exclude kids.  And give me the website that says if you get the vaccine you are fully protected and you cannot infect anyone else.  Cannot figure out why everyone thinks the vaccine is the ultimate end all.

It is my understanding that the fully vaccinated Royal sailings from Israel is all with the exception of those 16 and under.🤔

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18 minutes ago, jules27556 said:

It is my understanding that the fully vaccinated Royal sailings from Israel is all with the exception of those 16 and under.🤔

Yes that's what has been posted. True dat.

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10 hours ago, Mapleleafforever said:

So age is going to be a factor even after vaccinations? 

Timing is also a factor. People are not fully immune until 2 weeks after the second shot of the mRNA vaccines. Also....there is a possibility a person can contract the virus even before the first shot.

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3 hours ago, elsie3939 said:

I   hate needles, too but honestly, I did not even feel the 1st shot and the 2nd one wasn't bad either....but I did feel it a little.  sore arm each time  after about 6 - 8 hours and it lasted  for maybe 12 hours.  Just felt like a bruise.  

Last month Mom and 2 dozen my Relatives received Pfizer, issues like yours. Me in Michigan my Kid in Arizona got 1st Dose Moderna Saturday am. Both of us arm swelling & hurt for over 48hrs shoulder to elbow. Had Headaches, little queezy tummies and she a rash me Fever 99.1(normal 97.6). Fine now. Just different, and I've had probably thousand shots over the years

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9 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Timing is also a factor. People are not fully immune until 2 weeks after the second shot of the mRNA vaccines. Also....there is a possibility a person can contract the virus even before the first shot.

Yup, the woman mentioned in the article had her second shot on Jan 28 and she collapsed on March 1. The vaccine must have worked though because she's now doing well apparently whereas before the vaccine it most likely would have been much worse. 

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6 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I think you my friend are the one being naive. While what you say holds some truths, you can bet your bottom dollar if a member of my family was covid infected from medical staff it would be found out in the 'Discovery' process. 

 

And suddenly.... now that vaccines are about us... we are now hearing that individuals in the medical field can ignore the same science that we've been lectured on for a year. pfft. 

The very idea... Illogical is a generous way to describe it, and I'm even someone who fully believes vaccine mandates should be in place for some professions.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Timing is also a factor. People are not fully immune until 2 weeks after the second shot of the mRNA vaccines. Also....there is a possibility a person can contract the virus even before the first shot.

I think I can count about 10 separate incidents of you saying this to dismiss the idea that older people will still be more susceptible to disease post-vaccination. This statement alone does not address the point AND for Pfizer the efficacy clock started at 1 week post vaccination.

Edited by lizzius
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9 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

I do believe you are a bit confused. The 95% efficacy rate is NOT that 95% will not catch the virus Covid, but rather the 95% efficacy rate reduces the need for hospitalization and death. It weakens the virus and thus minimizes the effects of the illness. This is exactly why EVERYONE on a cruise ship needs to be vaccinated.  

No, the 95% efficacy was also reported against symptomatic disease. Hospitalizations and death were 99%-100% effective in the trial, though real world data is also putting that at closer to a 95% reduction.

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