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Looking at cruises in early 2022 - Vaccine required?


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On 3/26/2021 at 3:31 PM, Mary229 said:

There is no published, peer reviewed studies indicating that the vaccine is not effective against variants and as a matter of fact early tests by the vaccine makers indicate they are.  These are self reported results.  
 

the vaccine has been deemed by studies to be up to 95% effective much higher than most flu vaccines.    Remember flu vaccines do not impart lifetime immunity.  Many vaccines do not impart lifetime immunity 

 

There is no study indicating that Covid reoccurs in those who have had it.  Most current thinking is the people with recurrence simply have not full recovered.  
 

 

now to my opinion , I find it interesting that so many were so fond of referring back to the 1918 influenza saying that it lasted 24 months which is about right.  Here we are in 2021 with many successful  vaccines and yet we want to lock down for 24 months.  

There is a study in South Africa with the AZ vaccine that did not show efficacy against B.1.351 variant.  The SA government stopped their roll out of AZ vaccine when those results came out.

 

The J&J vaccine showed significantly lower efficacy 57% in its trial in South Africa where B.1.351 is the primary strain compared to its US trial 72% where the primary strains were the original and the B.1.1.7 (UK) variant.  It showed 66% in South America where the Brazilian strain is dominant.

 

 In vitro testing have indicated that it takes 10=12 X the amount of antibodies to neutralize B.1.351 strain compared to the original strain.

 

No data yet on how Pfizer and Moderna vaccines does in an environment with B.1.351.

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On 3/26/2021 at 3:31 PM, Mary229 said:

There is no published, peer reviewed studies indicating that the vaccine is not effective against variants and as a matter of fact early tests by the vaccine makers indicate they are.  These are self reported results.  
 

the vaccine has been deemed by studies to be up to 95% effective much higher than most flu vaccines.    Remember flu vaccines do not impart lifetime immunity.  Many vaccines do not impart lifetime immunity 

 

There is no study indicating that Covid reoccurs in those who have had it.  Most current thinking is the people with recurrence simply have not full recovered.  
 

 

now to my opinion , I find it interesting that so many were so fond of referring back to the 1918 influenza saying that it lasted 24 months which is about right.  Here we are in 2021 with many successful  vaccines and yet we want to lock down for 24 months.  

There are studies that have looked at the question of natural immunity after infection and have identified cases infection after having been previously infected.  

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

Steen Ethelberg and his colleagues at the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen mined data from polymerase chain reaction tests, which are the gold-standard method for detecting SARS-CoV-2 infection, conducted in Denmark (C. H. Hansen et al. Lancet https://doi.org/gjg8qk; 2021). The team focused on people who tested positive for the coronavirus during one or both of Denmark’s two surges of infection — from March to May and from September to December — in 2020.

 

The team found that, at about 6 months after initial infection, protection against repeat infection was approximately 80%, with no significant difference in reinfection rates between men and women. But this protection was reduced to 47% for those aged 65 years or older, emphasizing the need to prioritize vaccinations for this group.

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210204/study-young-covid-survivors-can-get-reinfected#1

 

The finding stems from tracking nearly 3,250 young U.S. Marine recruits between May and October. Of those, 189 had previously tested positive for the SAR-CoV-2 virus. During the six-week study itself, 10% of those who had tested positive got reinfected.

       

"You don't have a get-out-of-jail-free card just because you have antibodies from a previous infection," said study author Dr. Stuart Sealfon.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, nocl said:

No data yet on how Pfizer and Moderna vaccines does in an environment with B.1.351.

 

Just to add and Pfizer and Moderna weren’t originally tested under these circumstances and in the countries with the current variants.

Comparing their results and Johnson and Johnson is like comparing apples to oranges considering the testing circumstances at each time.

So far,Pfizer and Moderna have shown to be quite successful in prevention and variants.  I suspect boosters may be on the way sooner or later whether we like it or not.

 

The question is can the vaccine get in enough arms to stop the developing variants. Ergo, the request made for everyone to mask and take precautions to stop the spread and more developing variants.

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8 hours ago, nocl said:

There is a study in South Africa with the AZ vaccine that did not show efficacy against B.1.351 variant.  The SA government stopped their roll out of AZ vaccine when those results came out.

 

The J&J vaccine showed significantly lower efficacy 57% in its trial in South Africa where B.1.351 is the primary strain compared to its US trial 72% where the primary strains were the original and the B.1.1.7 (UK) variant.  It showed 66% in South America where the Brazilian strain is dominant.

 

 In vitro testing have indicated that it takes 10=12 X the amount of antibodies to neutralize B.1.351 strain compared to the original strain.

 

No data yet on how Pfizer and Moderna vaccines does in an environment with B.1.351.

I don't have time to look it up for you but Moderna and Pfizer have published statements regarding variants.  

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9 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I don't have time to look it up for you but Moderna and Pfizer have published statements regarding variants.  

They have published statement that based upon the in vitro data that they expect that they will still show efficacy against B.1.351 and similar variants, though they expect it to be reduced.

 

But as of yet no data on actual performance in people.

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My guess is those cruise lines not requiring vaccination will reverse course after they (or another non-vaccination requiring  line) sails and has a Covid outbreak. The economic impact and all the bad press will force their hand

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Posted (edited)

Whether or not to get a vaccination is absolutely a choice. But someone who chooses not to get a vaccination has to face that they are also choosing all the consequences of that choice. Airlines and hotels and cruise lines are private businesses. There is nothing in any law that says voluntarily un-vaccinated people are a protected class that a private business has to service. A bunch of cruise lines have already said they're going to require vaccinations.

 

No shirt No shoes No service

is going to become

No shot No shirt No shoes No service.

 

There's nothing new about requiring vaccinations to travel. Before, people who don't want to get vaccinations could just go somewhere else. The difference now is that everywhere someone wants to travel, and airlines, and cruise line, are going to require this vaccination.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cruising Is Bliss
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2 hours ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

Whether or not to get a vaccination is absolutely a choice. But someone who chooses not to get a vaccination has to face that they are also choosing all the consequences of that choice. Airlines and hotels and cruise lines are private businesses. There is nothing in any law that says voluntarily un-vaccinated people are a protected class that a private business has to service. A bunch of cruise lines have already said they're going to require vaccinations.

 

No shirt No shoes No service

is going to become

No shot No shirt No shoes No service.

 

There's nothing new about requiring vaccinations to travel. Before, people who don't want to get vaccinations could just go somewhere else. The difference now is that everywhere someone wants to travel, and airlines, and cruise line, are going to require this vaccination.

 

 

 

 

 

Right on!

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6 hours ago, Cruising Is Bliss said:

Whether or not to get a vaccination is absolutely a choice. But someone who chooses not to get a vaccination has to face that they are also choosing all the consequences of that choice.

 

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

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14 minutes ago, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

 

I honestly think you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

If you travel to certain countries you need certain vaccines (ie yellow fever) or you don’t get on the ship.  If you travel to certain countries you need visas or you don’t get in.

the countries and hotels, airlines and cruise ships will set their requirements.  If they require a vaccination certificate,  those that choose not to vaccinate will not be permitted in.  It’s as simple as that.

 

Countries don’t refuse  those of Jewish, gay or vegan persuasion (or whatever example you want to make).

 

Like it or not, this is a severe virus and I am quite sure we are going to find many countries will be reluctant to accept those that are not vaccinated.

Most cruise lines have already made their requirements known if you wish to sail.

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53 minutes ago, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

None of the 3 things you mentioned  can kill anyone else from 6 feet away!

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1 hour ago, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

4. If you choose to not get the measles vaccine , and then there is an outbreak of measles, is an outbreak of measles a negative consequence? But, there is no risk to vaccinated people, so what is the point of the vaccine?

 

OK, there was a few years back an outbreak of measles in parts of NY state  because there were those who used the religious exemption to get out of having their children vaccinated for measles in order to be allowed to go to school. It became so bad, that the state ended up eliminating the religious exemption (while keeping a medical exemption in place). There were of course court challenges, and the law was upheld as necessary for public safety.

 

But you argue why should the vaccinated care. Well our son is the Godfather in all but official name to a youngster who is eligible for the medical exemption as he has a compromised immune system. His parents, with herd immunity no longer possible due to the outbreak caused by the anti-vaxxers, decided it was less dangerous for him to be vaccinated than exposed to measles. Luckily, no harm came to him, but it could have because of the irresponsibility of the anti-vaxxers.

 

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1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

I honestly think you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

If you travel to certain countries you need certain vaccines (ie yellow fever) or you don’t get on the ship.  If you travel to certain countries you need visas or you don’t get in.

the countries and hotels, airlines and cruise ships will set their requirements.  If they require a vaccination certificate,  those that choose not to vaccinate will not be permitted in.  It’s as simple as that.

 

Countries don’t refuse  those of Jewish, gay or vegan persuasion (or whatever example you want to make).

 

Like it or not, this is a severe virus and I am quite sure we are going to find many countries will be reluctant to accept those that are not vaccinated.

Most cruise lines have already made their requirements known if you wish to sail.

Like, but there are countries that are not really very welcoming to Jewish people or gay people. I'm not sure about vegans.

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1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Like, but there are countries that are not really very welcoming to Jewish people or gay people. I'm not sure about vegans.

The mid-west cattle ranchers aren't crazy about them🤣 

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5 hours ago, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

Other than #2 - being gay, they absolutely ARE choices and the chooser reaps both any rewards and consequences of that choice.  A jewish person could choose to become catholic, muslim, atheist, etc.  A vegan can choose to eat normal foods.  A gay person is what he/she is - that's not a choice.

 

Sue/WDW1972

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3 hours ago, HamOp said:

The mid-west cattle ranchers aren't crazy about them🤣 

LOL, when we were married, we told the reception place, no meat. They asked DW if we wanted to build homes for cows.

 

When we booked they told us no problem, but I don't think they were really ready for us to be serious about it.

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14 hours ago, wdw1972 said:

Other than #2 - being gay, they absolutely ARE choices and the chooser reaps both any rewards and consequences of that choice.  A jewish person could choose to become catholic, muslim, atheist, etc.  A vegan can choose to eat normal foods.  A gay person is what he/she is - that's not a choice.

 

Sue/WDW1972

 

 

I'm gay so I understand probably better than you that people don't choose to be gay. But if there was some kind of mob mandate, or a government mandate empowered by a mob, a gay person could "choose" to hide who they are. A jewish person could as well. And that's the point of my post. We are supposed to be a nation of free people. Forced medical procedures are not indicative of freedom. I disagree with the statements here about how deadly COVID is. It has a fatality rate that is less than other diseases that are more prevalent. If you are in a high risk group or afraid, then get the vaccine. You are free to do so. I believe most people will and that might solve our COVID problem.

 

How would you feel about forced annual flu shots by the way? I am just curious.

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On 4/2/2021 at 12:05 PM, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

Does this seem arrogant to anyone else?

 

See if you're comfortable with these:

 

1. Being Jewish is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses Judaism has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

2. Being gay is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be gay has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

3. Being vegan is absolutely a choice, but someone who chooses to be vegan has to face the consequences of that choice.

 

Of course you would not be. Now, please spare me the "but think about [other people/grandma/the vulnerable]" because those folks are getting vaccinated. If they are vaccinated, there is no risk to them - otherwise what's the point of the vaccine?

1. While practicing Judaism is a choice, being born Jewish and the ramifications of it (like *** Germany) are not.

 

2. Being Gay is not a "choice".

 

3. Being Vegan is a personal choice but one with no impact on others.

 

What is arrogant is your final paragraph. 

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10 hours ago, SumoCitrus said:

 

 

I'm gay so I understand probably better than you that people don't choose to be gay. But if there was some kind of mob mandate, or a government mandate empowered by a mob, a gay person could "choose" to hide who they are. A jewish person could as well. And that's the point of my post. We are supposed to be a nation of free people. Forced medical procedures are not indicative of freedom. I disagree with the statements here about how deadly COVID is. It has a fatality rate that is less than other diseases that are more prevalent. If you are in a high risk group or afraid, then get the vaccine. You are free to do so. I believe most people will and that might solve our COVID problem.

 

How would you feel about forced annual flu shots by the way? I am just curious.

I want to address your post with some facts and also personal opinion from a person that spent most of his adult life in the healthcare industry.   So lets start by forgetting these ridiculous comparisons to things like being gay or Jewish.  COVID and vaccines are health issues and COVID is a highly contagious disease (being gay or Jewish is not contagious).  I agree with you to the extent that I do not want to see my government mandate or force folks to get a vaccine!  But otherwise you and I disagree on many things.   COVID is a very serious disease that has killed over 560,000 Americans in a year.  Show me another contagious disease that has done that in the last few decades.   COVID has also left more then 10 times that number (we still do not have a good number) with many different morbidities some of which are life shortening, life threatening, life altering,  etc.  I am talking about permanent lung damage, cardiac damage, neurological damage, kidney failure etc.  This part of COVID is often ignored by the press and also ignored by the anti-vax folks.  And those serious morbidities strike both the young and old.

 

That being said, if you do not want to get a vaccine I do believe that is your right.  On the other hand I also believe that any private business  or government also has the right to refuse you service if they decide to enforce their own vaccination requirement.  So if you decide to fly Qantas airlines to Australia and Qantas says "no vaccine no fly" and Australia says no vaccine no entry that is life.  You made your decision, and you must live the ramifications.   If cruise lines decide to mandate that all passengers have a COVID vaccine then it is your choice whether you want to meet that requirement and cruise.  By the way....many lines have already implemented this requirement.

 

I will also point out there is nothing new about vaccine requirements.  My generation had to have smallpox vaccinations, polio vaccinations, and certain other vaccinations to get into public school.  At one time folks needed a smallpox vaccination certificate to travel to many parts of the world.  Because of the worlds success with that vaccine we no longer have smallpox or need the that vaccine.   But even today, folks need a Yellow Fever vaccination certificate to travel to parts of the world.  

 

As to your "forced flu shots" I feel the same as I feel about COVID shots.  You should not be forced but I do think that businesses and governments can certainly require it as a requirement of entry.  There are some healthcare facilities that do require their staff to get flu shots..or they can get another job.  In simple terms you have the freedom to choose whether or not to get shots, but others should have the freedom to choose whether or not to offer you services based on that decision. 

 

Hank

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On 3/29/2021 at 9:01 PM, nocl said:

The finding stems from tracking nearly 3,250 young U.S. Marine recruits between May and October. Of those, 189 had previously tested positive for the SAR-CoV-2 virus. During the six-week study itself, 10% of those who had tested positive got reinfected.

       

"You don't have a get-out-of-jail-free card just because you have antibodies from a previous infection," said study author Dr. Stuart Sealfon.

I'm just curious.  How did they differentiate a relapse from a re-infection?

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Will only sail on completely vaccinated ships.

Even though I am vaccinated and probably should not be at risk of contracting - do not want another disaster with either sick , deaths and all that isolation when different countries would not allow to ship to  dock. 

For those reasons will only sail when proof of vaccination is MANDATORY!!!!

NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

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