CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions

[DirtyDawg]

44 minutes ago, mnocket said:

CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'

https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-director-data-vaccinated-people-do-not-carry-covid-19-2021-3

 

So why not allow cruises with 100% vaccinated passengers and crew?

The operative word there is "suggests". "Suggests" does not equal 100% proven.

 

The articles goes on to say the researchers are recruiting thousands of college kids to study if they can actually prove this. That will take some time to do that study, I suggest.

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[broberts]

1 hour ago, D C said:

 

I don't believe they have changed the words to this recommendation in a year, and cruises being high risk is unfounded, especially with announcements that vaccines will be required.   Do they expect that people will heed their recommendation?   I would freely ignore it and go on a vaccinated cruise. 

 

I keep asking for actual verifyable data that proves the contention cruising is not high risk. Do you have any real data?

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, D C said:

 

I don't believe they have changed the words to this recommendation in a year, and cruises being high risk is unfounded, especially with announcements that vaccines will be required.   Do they expect that people will heed their recommendation?   I would freely ignore it and go on a vaccinated cruise. 

My post was in response to another poster who stated that the CDC should make a recommendation. The purpose of my post wasn't to enter into a debate over the contents of the recommendation, but to simply point out that the recommendation already exists.

 

FWIW, I believe that a good number of people will heed the recommendation. You hold a contrary opinion, and that's fine.

[grandgeezer]

1 hour ago, D C said:

 

I don't believe they have changed the words to this recommendation in a year, and cruises being high risk is unfounded, especially with announcements that vaccines will be required.   Do they expect that people will heed their recommendation?   I would freely ignore it and go on a vaccinated cruise. 

I don’t know of any cruises starting in the US, or stopping here that i sailing with vaccinated passengers and crew. I would say the “recommendation” carries some weight.

[K.T.B.]

2 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

I just don't see the relevance of this....

 

Every time there is a slight downturn to rate of Covid infection, states open up rather than wait it out a little more to make sure.

[mom says]

3 hours ago, D C said:

 

I don't believe they have changed the words to this recommendation in a year, and cruises being high risk is unfounded, especially with announcements that vaccines will be required.   Do they expect that people will heed their recommendation?   I would freely ignore it and go on a vaccinated cruise. 

Who are "the people" of which you speak? The people who run the cruise lines? They are free to ignore the CDC. But not if they want to sail into or out of a US port. You can certainly ignore it, but you'll need to travel elsewhere to exercise your "rights". Enjoy.

[broberts]

2 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Every time there is a slight downturn to rate of Covid infection, states open up rather than wait it out a little more to make sure.

 

I really don't like feeling like a yoyo. One would think after a year of this people would have learned.

[DirtyDawg]

16 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

I really don't like feeling like a yoyo. One would think after a year of this people would have learned.

 

You do realize we are talking about the human race here? Do we ever learn?

 

I wish NASA would stop wasting money trying to find  intelligent life out there in the vastness of the universe, I'd be euphoric just to find some down here. 😉

Edited April 1, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[Spif Barwunkel]

1 hour ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

You do realize we are talking about the human race here? Do we ever learn?

 

I wish NASA would stop wasting money trying to find  intelligent life out there in the vastness of the universe, I'd be euphoric just to find some down here. 😉

The right people learn. Some people don't give a damn and exist in the moment only. Now that is okay, mind you, if that is your ilk. Thanks to the intelligent life "down here" that wasted vastness you speak of may very well catch us when this sphere falls.

 

Take a look at our galaxy, the Milky Way. We on earth live in the suburbs, if you will.  What do you think? What I think is, probably a lot of CDC's up there having the same challenges as the ones down here. And yes, just like you, they are probably saying "you do realize we are talking about the human race here?" I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

 

What I do know is those Carrullian doctors have got it goin' on.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Spif Barwunkel

[K.T.B.]

3 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I really don't like feeling like a yoyo. One would think after a year of this people would have learned.

 

Charlie Brown would love to talk with you about kicking a football....

[D C]

8 hours ago, mnocket said:

CDC director says data 'suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus'

https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-director-data-vaccinated-people-do-not-carry-covid-19-2021-3

 

So why not allow cruises with 100% vaccinated passengers and crew?

Because math is hard for a lot of people. 

A fully vaccinated ship remains the safest place on earth from covid, yet some people insist on playing irrational "what if" games. 

[K.T.B.]

CDC cruise guidelines coming soon, Miami-Dade mayor says after call with CDC director.

[D C]

4 hours ago, mom says said:

Who are "the people" of which you speak? The people who run the cruise lines? They are free to ignore the CDC. But not if they want to sail into or out of a US port. You can certainly ignore it, but you'll need to travel elsewhere to exercise your "rights". Enjoy.

Precisely my point. The initial response to non-us sailings has been monumental according to the cruise lines.   Subjective and anecdotal, but it certainly suggests that the CDC's recommendations are being widely ignored. 

[D C]

4 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

CDC cruise guidelines coming soon, Miami-Dade mayor says after call with CDC director.

I'll believe that when I see it.  Not holding my breath. 

[D C]

7 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I keep asking for actual verifyable data that proves the contention cruising is not high risk. Do you have any real data?

Aside from a handful of ships that were caught in the initial onslaught of cases before anyone knew relevant details about covid, is there any data suggesting they are high risk compared to the activities in which people freely engage on a daily basis?  Then ask that again on a ship with vaccinated crew and passengers. 

[broberts]

1 hour ago, D C said:

Because math is hard for a lot of people. 

A fully vaccinated ship remains the safest place on earth from covid, yet some people insist on playing irrational "what if" games. 

 

I have asked before and will keep asking, would you please provide some verifiable data to prove the contention that "a fully vaccinated ship remain the safest place on earth".

[TeeRick]

10 hours ago, D C said:

Because math is hard for a lot of people. 

A fully vaccinated ship remains the safest place on earth from covid, yet some people insist on playing irrational "what if" games. 

This is a very interesting point to make.  And I concur.  I have stated several times that there is no need to wear a mask on board a 100% vaccinated ship.  Others here are not convinced.  To me that is common sense knowing about vaccines.  I would definitely wear a mask traveling back and forth and anywhere off the ship.    If I choose to sail on a ship that has 100% of the passengers and crew vaccinated,  then I am in a vaccine protective environment with the guarantee that everybody else is vaccinated.  A much better guarantee than going to a grocery store or dining at a reduced capacity restaurant.   Even when I go to the clinic or doctor's office or dentist, I am not guaranteed that every health care worker I encounter is vaccinated.  That is more of a risk than sailing on a fully vaccinated ship.  

[harkinmr]

18 hours ago, TeeRick said:

It is an evolution of thought based upon a lot of data now coming together.  So it is just a matter of time before there is an evolution of action.  Hopefully very soon.

Thank you Tee Rick.  How about we wait more than 5 minutes before demanding that the rules be changed.  Based on the press release from the mayor of Miami Dade County there are going to be new rules coming to allow for US cruising to open, likely to include a vaccination requirement.  It's amazing what can happen when you pick up the phone and talk with somebody rather than strut around threatening to sue.

[GTarrant]

9 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I have asked before and will keep asking, would you please provide some verifiable data to prove the contention that "a fully vaccinated ship remain the safest place on earth".

Here we have a chicken and egg problem. We can't know that a cruise with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is safe without actually running some - or at least running the test cruises - and for understandable reasons many authorities are reluctant to give the OK to run them without knowing they are safe, which they can't know without running them, etc. ad nauseam.

 

In the end, the only way we're going to get said data is to let them happen, with documented and defined protocols in place to ensure the safety of passengers and crew. I get that no one wants to be the one to give the "go-ahead" and have it be wrong, but at some point someone has to (and it wouldn't shock me if that reluctance is half of the reason why there's been little communication).

 

That said, the data available on the effectiveness of the vaccines gives pretty high hope that a "full vaccination" requirement would likely result in a fairly safe voyage.

Edited April 2, 2021 by GTarrant

[TeeRick]

1 minute ago, GTarrant said:

Here we have a chicken and egg problem. We can't know that a cruise with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is safe without actually running some - or at least running the test cruises - and for understandable reasons many authorities are reluctant to give the OK to run them without knowing they are safe, which they can't know without running them, etc. as nauseam.

 

In the end, the only way we're going to get said data is to let them happen, with documented and defined protocols in place to ensure the safety of passengers and crew. I get that no one wants to be the one to give the "go-ahead" and have it be wrong, but at some point someone has to (and it wouldn't shock me if that reluctance is half of the reason why there's been little communication).

 

That said, the data available on the effectiveness of the vaccines gives pretty high hope that a "full vaccination" requirement would likely result in a fairly safe voyage.

Good post thank you.  The Effectiveness of the vaccines is being reported from real world sources and recently the US CDC.  That is the relevant data.

[paulh84]

6 minutes ago, GTarrant said:

Here we have a chicken and egg problem. We can't know that a cruise with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is safe without actually running some - or at least running the test cruises - and for understandable reasons many authorities are reluctant to give the OK to run them without knowing they are safe, which they can't know without running them, etc. ad nauseam.

 

In the end, the only way we're going to get said data is to let them happen, with documented and defined protocols in place to ensure the safety of passengers and crew. I get that no one wants to be the one to give the "go-ahead" and have it be wrong, but at some point someone has to (and it wouldn't shock me if that reluctance is half of the reason why there's been little communication).

 

That said, the data available on the effectiveness of the vaccines gives pretty high hope that a "full vaccination" requirement would likely result in a fairly safe voyage.

 

My guess is there are a few sticking points here:

 

-Where COVID protocols and oversight live within the CDC framework similar to the VSP program that oversees norovirus

-Cruise lines being transparent in their reporting when it is not required by the CDC 

-Reluctance for cruise lines to apply a broad vaccine required policy (even if temporary)

 

On these new Caribbean sailings, even from a consumer perspective, there are a lot of unanswered questions. Does Shilouette have a vaccinated crew? Masks? What exactly is this 'tiered response' they keep talking about? What is the magic COVID threshold for the cruise to come to a halt? Are these asymptomatic people or symptomatic? There are not difficult points to address but it appears they may be a lot of play it by ear happening. That won't fly (or cruise??) with the CDC. 

 

 

[broberts]

5 minutes ago, GTarrant said:

Here we have a chicken and egg problem. We can't know that a cruise with fully vaccinated passengers and crew is safe without actually running some - or at least running the test cruises - and for understandable reasons many authorities are reluctant to give the OK to run them without knowing they are safe, which they can't know without running them, etc. ad nauseam.

 

In the end, the only way we're going to get said data is to let them happen, with documented and defined protocols in place to ensure the safety of passengers and crew. I get that no one wants to be the one to give the "go-ahead" and have it be wrong, but at some point someone has to (and it wouldn't shock me if that reluctance is half of the reason why there's been little communication).

 

That said, the data available on the effectiveness of the vaccines gives pretty high hope that a "full vaccination" requirement would likely result in a fairly safe voyage.

 

You are correct on the nature of the problem. Undoubtably the decision to allow sailing from the US is going to have to be based on data collected from land based studies.

 

I do wonder if serious studies could have been set up for the few cruises currently operating. I would have thought the cruise industry would have been willing to offer funding. Of course that runs counter to its general mindset to keep tight control on what finds its way into general media.

 

So, we know that there is no good data on the safety of cruising. This is why I posed the question. Claiming cruising is safe is a baseless claim. One may be of the opinion it is safe but we simply don't know that yet.

 

The results of vaccinations are very encouraging. I suspect it is only a matter of time before fully vaccinated sailings will be allowed. But at this time there really isn't any certainty. We simply have to be patient.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

If I choose to sail on a ship that has 100% of the passengers and crew vaccinated,  then I am in a vaccine protective environment with the guarantee that everybody else is vaccinated.

 

But will this be true for the mass market lines?  Already there are exceptions for children -- and children can both be asymptomatic carriers and can become ill from infection...

 

And from what I've read elsewhere regarding social media, certain groups are pushing that cruise ships should NOT have a "100% vaccinated" policy.  What then?

 

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Thank you Tee Rick.  How about we wait more than 5 minutes before demanding that the rules be changed.  Based on the press release from the mayor of Miami Dade County there are going to be new rules coming to allow for US cruising to open, likely to include a vaccination requirement.  It's amazing what can happen when you pick up the phone and talk with somebody rather than strut around threatening to sue.

Especially when there's no testosterone getting in the way!

 

After reading a number of posts here that the CDC's new director,  Dr. Rochelle Walensky, knows little about the cruise industry, it was interesting to see this comment from Miami-Dade Mayor Daniella Levine Cava:

 

I was impressed by the director's knowledge of the industry and her empathy to the economic hardships that the loss of this business has caused.

[TeeRick]

13 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

But will this be true for the mass market lines?  Already there are exceptions for children -- and children can both be asymptomatic carriers and can become ill from infection...

 

And from what I've read elsewhere regarding social media, certain groups are pushing that cruise ships should NOT have a "100% vaccinated" policy.  What then?

 

My  statement was simple.  I will sail on a ship that is 100% vaccinated.  No what ifs or otherwise or age restrictions or exceptions.  100% vaccinated means 100% vaccinated.  If that cannot be the case then I will not sail in 2021.  There is no "what then" scenario for me.  I think many others feel this way too.  And a number of people do not.  It is simply our choice and our money on either side of this argument.