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CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions


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2 hours ago, lovrccl said:

I agree, I should have said I don't understand why the CDC is being so stubborn about cruising.  

Read the section of the order that provides the justification.  That should give you an idea. This is defined is depth on pages 7 through 16.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/CDC-Conditional-Sail-Order_10_30_2020-p.pdf

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9 minutes ago, nocl said:

Read the section of the order that provides the justification.  That should give you an idea. This is defined is depth on pages 7 through 16.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/CDC-Conditional-Sail-Order_10_30_2020-p.pdf

 

Here's the thing, that PDF is as of October 30, 2020.  A LOT has changed since then.  People are getting vaccinated and cruise lines are requiring passengers and crew members to be vaccinated if they're going to be on board.  That justification is wholly out of date now.

 

I'll be curious to see how these cruises go for Celebrity in the next few months.

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34 minutes ago, nocl said:

Read the section of the order that provides the justification.  That should give you an idea. This is defined is depth on pages 7 through 16.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/CDC-Conditional-Sail-Order_10_30_2020-p.pdf

 The first bullet of the CDC Intent is ‘Preserving Human Life’......Oh, I thought it was to damage the cruising industry! 

 

And time flies since October but we are still in the grasp of a Pandemic which if you plan to cruise, goes beyond how well your local community or even how the US is doing. We aren’t close enough yet to getting this under control. 

 

Now, I understand that Celebrity is going to cruise out of St Marteen and there are testing requirements and 100% vaccination requirements for crew and passengers. All appears OK, And even reading all these very astute posts showing us how inept and biased the CDC is, I’m not sure I’m ready to go with the medical decisions of a small Caribbean island that’s economic existence is based on tourism and a company that is desperate to start cruising again. I’d have to assume all is safe enough to fly to St Marteen going through more than a few airports, airplanes, buses to a hotel (no, flying in the day of cruise is too tricky), a hotel, island restaurants, a bus to the ship, climb into a ship with 1,000’s that will be getting on and off in various ports and then retracing all that to get back home.

 

Yeah.......I’ll rely that St Marteen and some cruise line really care more about ‘Preseving Human Life’ - My Life! - than the CDC because I’m not seeing the CDC do what I think it should, and I’m almost as much of an expert on all this is all the ones setting up cruising out of a Caribbean island to get around the US restrictions. Got it.

 

I think I’ll wait until I see enough immunizations being done and the CDC recommendations. But go for it. 

 

Den

Edited by Denny01
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16 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Here's the thing, that PDF is as of October 30, 2020.  A LOT has changed since then.  People are getting vaccinated and cruise lines are requiring passengers and crew members to be vaccinated if they're going to be on board.  That justification is wholly out of date now.

 

I'll be curious to see how these cruises go for Celebrity in the next few months.

Not really.  The case numbers are still in the same ball park as when the order was written.  Which, while down from the holiday massive peak, has plateaued over the last two weeks and starting to climb again.  The history concerning cruise ships has not changed.  The studies indicating how COVID spreads on a cruise ship has not changed. The variants that are a concern now were not a concern then.

 

I have not seen or heard of any cruise line submitting a detailed plan to the CDC defining how they want to operate, taking advantage of vaccination and and requesting review.  Have you?

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Just now, Denny01 said:

 The first bullet of the CDC Intent is ‘Preserving Human Life’......Oh, I thought it was to damage the cruising industry! 

 

And time flies since October but we are still in the grasp of a Pandemic which if you plan to cruise, goes beyond how well your local community or even how the US is doing. We aren’t close enough yet to getting this under control. 

 

Now, I understand that Celebrity is going to cruise out of St Marteen and there are testing requirements and 100% vaccination requirements for crew and passengers. All appears OK, And even reading all these very astute posts showing us how inept and biased the CDC is, I’m not sure I’m ready to go with the medical decisions of a small Caribbean island that’s economic existence is based on tourism and a company that is desperate to start cruising again and assume all is safe enough to fly to St Marteen being in more than a few airports, airplanes, buses to a hotel (no, flying in the day of cruise is too tricky), a hotel, island restaurants, a bus to the ship, climb into a ship with 1,000’s that will be getting on and off in various ports and then retracing all that to get back home.

 

Yeah.......I’ll rely that St Marteen and some cruise line really care more about ‘Preseving Human Life’ - My Life! - than the CDC because I’m not seeing the CDC do what I think it should, and I’m almost as much of an expert on all this is all the ones setting up cruising out of a Caribbean island to get around the US restrictions. Got it.

 

I think I’ll wait until I see enough immunizations being done and the CDC recommendations. But go for it. 

 

Den

AS far as I have been able to find out the over site of the Caribbean islands over the cruise itself is limited to their rules for tourists entering their Island.  In other words no oversight.  All the decisions are up to the cruise line.

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34 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Here's the thing, that PDF is as of October 30, 2020.  A LOT has changed since then.  People are getting vaccinated and cruise lines are requiring passengers and crew members to be vaccinated if they're going to be on board.  That justification is wholly out of date now.

 

I'll be curious to see how these cruises go for Celebrity in the next few months.

I agree, things have changed, but not all for the better. While vaccines were anticipated within a matter of days following the signing of the framework document, there were no vaccines actually available. But the document wasn't written without taking into consideration of the possible benefits to come from their imminent arrival. On the other hand, there was no knowledge of the numerous variants and the negative impact that they would have on on the recovery process, and still do today.

 

If you take a look at the number of new daily cases in the US, the numbers in mid-March and mid-October, when the document was being drafted, they are quite similar. On October 15, the count was 46,309, while the count for March 15 was actually higher at 52,261. The US numbers have only recently started to plateau following the second wave, and there remains a strong possibility that a third wave lies ahead.

 

So, progress is being made, but CDC's underlying concerns remain.

Edited by Fouremco
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8 minutes ago, nocl said:

AS far as I have been able to find out the over site of the Caribbean islands over the cruise itself is limited to their rules for tourists entering their Island.  In other words no oversight.  All the decisions are up to the cruise line.

Oh Nooooo! I just saw the thread on booking the St Maarten cruise! I hope I hope I hope they don’t read my post here! 

 

St Maarten cruisers: I was just joking! All will go perfectly........and if it doesn’t, we’ll all thank you for taking one for the rest of us!!

 

Den

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27 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I agree, things have changed, but not all for the better. While vaccines were anticipated within a matter of days following the signing of the framework document, there were no vaccines actually available. But the document wasn't written without taking into consideration of the possible benefits to come from their imminent arrival. On the other hand, there was no knowledge of the numerous variants and the negative impact that they would have on on the recovery process, and still do today.

 

If you take a look at the number of new daily cases in the US, the numbers in mid-March and mid-October, when the document was being drafted, they are quite similar. On October 15, the count was 46,309, while the count for March 15 was actually higher at 52,261. The US numbers have only recently started to plateau following the second wave, and there remains a strong possibility that a third wave lies ahead.

 

So, progress is being made, but CDC's underlying concerns remain.


Cases and hospitalizations are actually starting to increase again in certain parts of the country. I believe we are heading towards another spike (likely not as high as the Nov-Jan spike) for the next couple of months due to some states lifting all restrictions including mask requirements and reopening everything plus Spring Break crowds being super spreader events.

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2 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:


Cases and hospitalizations are actually starting to increase again in certain parts of the country. I believe we are heading towards another spike (likely not as high as the Nov-Jan spike) for the next couple of months due to some states lifting all restrictions including mask requirements and reopening everything plus Spring Break crowds being super spreader events.

That's how I too foresee things developing over the next while. There seems to be a very complacent attitude in some quarters that I fear will outweigh the positive benefits of the increased vaccinations.

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9 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:


Cases and hospitalizations are actually starting to increase again in certain parts of the country. I believe we are heading towards another spike (likely not as high as the Nov-Jan spike) for the next couple of months due to some states lifting all restrictions including mask requirements and reopening everything plus Spring Break crowds being super spreader events.

 

3 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

That's how I too foresee things developing over the next while. There seems to be a very complacent attitude in some quarters that I fear will outweigh the positive benefits of the increased vaccinations.

OK, anytime either of you two post, just assume I’ve added a ‘Heart’ to them!

 

Den

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On 3/24/2021 at 3:54 PM, txart said:

I have come to expect this from the CDC. I have no trust in their decisions or recommendations. They appear to be just another bureaucratic agency with a political agenda and a bias against the cruise industry. If they were operating from a scientific point of view the airlines, amusement parks, big box stores, etc would be held to the same standard.

Especially since the 2 states most affected, AK and FL, are red states. 

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37 minutes ago, WonderMan3 said:

Thank you CDC for putting health and safety over money and people’s selfish vacation thirstiness! 👍👍

100% agree!!  This Nov 2021 date is NOT new, but so many act like OMG what is happening, come on already, stop, ultimately what the CDC has done is in all of our best interests, red, blue, purple, green, orange, all colors of the rainbow, STOP being so selfish already!!

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If there is any wonder where cruise lines get their whiny tone from, maybe it's a results of their own trade group. Try not to trip over the fallacies while you read.

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2021/march/cruise-lines-ready-to-sail-again-in-the-united-states

 

Then there's this statement:

 

"While some cruise lines have announced a few sailings catering to those who have received vaccinations, CLIA does not currently have a policy related to vaccines. The organization and its members are exploring a workable approach for how to consider vaccinations, once widely available, as part of robust protocols."

 

So they haven't even bothered to come to a consensus on vaccines yet? Or even a suggested path? People can work themselves into a fury over the CDC all they want but I'm convinced this CLIA group and the cruise lines are about half clueless as well. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

If there is any wonder where cruise lines get their whiny tone from, maybe it's a results of their own trade group. Try not to trip over the fallacies while you read.

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2021/march/cruise-lines-ready-to-sail-again-in-the-united-states

 

Then there's this statement:

 

"While some cruise lines have announced a few sailings catering to those who have received vaccinations, CLIA does not currently have a policy related to vaccines. The organization and its members are exploring a workable approach for how to consider vaccinations, once widely available, as part of robust protocols."

 

So they haven't even bothered to come to a consensus on vaccines yet? Or even a suggested path? People can work themselves into a fury over the CDC all they want but I'm convinced this CLIA group and the cruise lines are about half clueless as well. 

 

The CLIA is a lobbying group.  That's all.  They are there for the financial benefit of the cruise operators.  They spend millions annually to lobby legislatures for the benefit of the cruise corporations, often to the detriment of those who sail with them. 

 

I recognize the place of lobbying organizations in a Democracy, but this crazy notion that they are looking out for your best interests, as pax, is nuts.  And to put them as the heroes against an agency devoted to public health (who admittedly, is not 100% blameless) is double and triple nutso. 

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7 hours ago, nocl said:

Not really.  The case numbers are still in the same ball park as when the order was written.  Which, while down from the holiday massive peak, has plateaued over the last two weeks and starting to climb again.  The history concerning cruise ships has not changed.  The studies indicating how COVID spreads on a cruise ship has not changed. The variants that are a concern now were not a concern then.

 

I have not seen or heard of any cruise line submitting a detailed plan to the CDC defining how they want to operate, taking advantage of vaccination and and requesting review.  Have you?

Cases are climbing.

image.thumb.png.a44402e033de15c727e60f88243cc154.png

 

 

 

Deaths as well?

image.thumb.png.7d92c01c31c386637fbda491883b0bc5.png

 


 

 

7 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I agree, things have changed, but not all for the better. While vaccines were anticipated within a matter of days following the signing of the framework document, there were no vaccines actually available. But the document wasn't written without taking into consideration of the possible benefits to come from their imminent arrival. On the other hand, there was no knowledge of the numerous variants and the negative impact that they would have on on the recovery process, and still do today.

 

If you take a look at the number of new daily cases in the US, the numbers in mid-March and mid-October, when the document was being drafted, they are quite similar. On October 15, the count was 46,309, while the count for March 15 was actually higher at 52,261. The US numbers have only recently started to plateau following the second wave, and there remains a strong possibility that a third wave lies ahead.

 

So, progress is being made, but CDC's underlying concerns remain.

I should know better than to get in a debate with you.  The number of tests conducted between those two periods of time are very significantly different, thus I doubt whether that comparison is really statistically valid. 

At least we both agree that progress is being made.  The administering of 2.5 million shots a day (133 million/over 25% of the population with at least on dose) in the US is a very meaningful action that signifies great progress.  
 

 

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1 hour ago, jagoffee said:

Cases are climbing.

image.thumb.png.a44402e033de15c727e60f88243cc154.png

 

 

 

Deaths as well?

image.thumb.png.7d92c01c31c386637fbda491883b0bc5.png

 


 

 

I should know better than to get in a debate with you.  The number of tests conducted between those two periods of time are very significantly different, thus I doubt whether that comparison is really statistically valid. 

At least we both agree that progress is being made.  The administering of 2.5 million shots a day (133 million/over 25% of the population with at least on dose) in the US is a very meaningful action that signifies great progress.  
 

 

Actually what I said was that while it has dropped from the big holiday peak, it has plateaued and has even has up ward trend.

 

The 7 day moving average hit its minimum value at 55,651 on March 14, it has now risen to  58,866

 

So over the last 11 days it has risen and is back to the same point it was at March 9th.

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2 hours ago, nocl said:

Actually what I said was that while it has dropped from the big holiday peak, it has plateaued and has even has up ward trend.

 

The 7 day moving average hit its minimum value at 55,651 on March 14, it has now risen to  58,866

 

So over the last 11 days it has risen and is back to the same point it was at March 9th.

Actually you said- “Which, while down from the holiday massive peak, has plateaued over the last two weeks and starting to climb again.”.  I just wanted to show you that they are not climbing.  

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6 hours ago, jagoffee said:

Actually you said- “Which, while down from the holiday massive peak, has plateaued over the last two weeks and starting to climb again.”.  I just wanted to show you that they are not climbing.  

 

Johns Hopkins disagees. In several states (20+ depending on the moving average used). This chart illustrates the past 14 days. Nationally we're back numbers in line with around March 7th and October 20th. 

 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases-50-states

Edited by paulh84
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CNBC just interviewed Transportation Secretary Buttigieg and asked if by May 1st US will have a plan for re-opening international air travel.  Pete deferred to CDC on travel restrictions and emphasized that  right now the administration's main focus is on winning the race between vaccine distribution and emerging variants.  Didn't mention cruise lines.  Interview just reinforced  how administration's only priority is fighting pandemic. 

Restoring any form of travel & tourism comes later.

Edited by Baron Barracuda
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7 hours ago, jagoffee said:

Actually you said- “Which, while down from the holiday massive peak, has plateaued over the last two weeks and starting to climb again.”.  I just wanted to show you that they are not climbing.  

They are climbing since March 14th.  They have climbed from 55,651 to almost 59,000 per day

 

 

Edited by nocl
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28 minutes ago, Baron Barracuda said:

CNBC just interviewed Transportation Secretary Buttigieg and asked if by May 1st US will have a plan for re-opening international air travel.  Pete deferred to CDC on travel restrictions and emphasized that  right now the administration's main focus is on winning the race between vaccine distribution and emerging variants.  Didn't mention cruise lines.  Interview just reinforced  how administration's only priority is fighting pandemic. 

Restoring any form of travel & tourism comes later.

Which is exactly where the government's focus should be - on the health and safety of Americans and not on individual companies greed, company's that base their products in places like Malta and Liberia to avoid paying employees fair wages, avoid health and safety protocols, avoid paying taxes, etc.  

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18 hours ago, doneall50 said:

Especially since the 2 states most affected, AK and FL, are red states. 

My life would be so much simpler and less stressful if I could be like some others and distill the world down to two colors - Red and Blue.  But alas, my mind keeps telling me it is more complicated.

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