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CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions


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2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

And if this is the case, then how do you explain no cruising out of NY, NJ or California?? :classic_dry:

 

Really -- let's cool it with the conspiracy theories.

 

Less impact on those economies.... not that this means anything.

CDC focus is on zero disease.... doesn't really matter if kids lose a year of education or commit suicide..that is not what their focus is on. This is why they should be providing guidance but the decision needs to be made by those with a more complete view...to balance risks... if you go for zero... then none of us would every fly, drive or leave the house... Problem is.. it is more of a political decision and no one wants to be on the wrong side of a decision...so it is easy to just say "follow the science" and essentially leave it to the CDC. I don't blame them... no one wants to be the one that says go ahead and then another ship is stuck... and if they have no problems...no one will say they were the hero... there is no upside for a political type making this decision.

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1 minute ago, bEwAbG said:

The problem with doing test cruises in another jurisdiction is that it only gives the CDC more reason to ignore anything presented without direct observation.  Why trust anyone who won't work directly with you? 

 

The cruise lines have not even completed the Phase 1 stuff that they were supposed to complete, so I don't understand this "we're waiting on the CDC to tell us what to do for Phase 2" talking point.  That is what is called a distraction.  The statements by Fain and others this last week were that they think the CDC plan of a phased approach to reopening is not needed.  In other words, they don't want to comply and are doing everything in their power to keep from complying.

Maybe the CDC should send some observers on those cruise.  I can't imagine the lines declining.

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2 minutes ago, kearney said:

Less impact on those economies.... not that this means anything.

CDC focus is on zero disease.... doesn't really matter if kids lose a year of education or commit suicide..that is not what their focus is on. This is why they should be providing guidance but the decision needs to be made by those with a more complete view...to balance risks... if you go for zero... then none of us would every fly, drive or leave the house... Problem is.. it is more of a political decision and no one wants to be on the wrong side of a decision...so it is easy to just say "follow the science" and essentially leave it to the CDC. I don't blame them... no one wants to be the one that says go ahead and then another ship is stuck... and if they have no problems...no one will say they were the hero... there is no upside for a political type making this decision.

Zero disease is not rational. 

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9 minutes ago, Aloha 1 said:

Here's a better question: Why is the head of the CDC, a MEDICAL organization, a political appointee??

 

Great point.....especially considering the incredibly weak response the present CDC Director had in discussing her own agencies role in the cruise ban.  Or should I say what she thought was the CDC's "NON" role since she placed the blame on others....sad really.

 

Alaska small business is hurting, maybe more than any other cruise area in the USA, they are likely to have no business for a full 2 years.

 

As I've said before if anyone is looking for a guaranteed Covid free cruise it's not ever going to happen...stuff happens and cases will occur no matter how tight the protocols.....

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Just now, cltnccruisers said:

Maybe the CDC should send some observers on those cruise.  I can't imagine the lines declining.

 

I cannot imagine the offer wasn't made, but who knows?  The CDC has made their position known and re-confirmed that they're not dropping the phased approach, which is what the cruise lines are pushing them to do.

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3 hours ago, LGW59 said:

They have not helped themselves in any way by not at least submitting something, if only as a starting point to open communication.  The industry owns that.

I mentioned this in another post but here goes again.  You need to listen to yourself!  What you are saying that a private business (i.e. cruise line) must submit a plan and justify itself to an agency of the US Government.   There was a time when anyone could open a business and the burden was on the government to prevent a business from operating.   Now, an agency of the US Government has shut down an entire industry (with some decent justification) but continued to keep that business shut down for over a year without providing any recourse, due process,  or even an explanation of their current action.  The Government has, so far, refused to provide any regulations or procedures for that industry to operate nor have they said if and when that business (cruise industry) will ever be allowed to reopen....if ever!

Some here point out that the Nov 1 framework expires on Oct 31 so they assume things will resume at that time.  But if you read the guidelines the CDC has said they can extend the restrictions/shutdown.  Without legal action the CDC, could in theory, keep the cruise lines shut down forever!

 

I spent over 30 years a government employee/regulator in the healthcare industry.  If we had an issue with a healthcare facility we could not just shut it down because we felt like it....but we had to go through a specific legal process and cite the facility.  In most cases they would be given an opportunity to to make corrections (based on our regulations) in which case they could continue to operate.  Even if they did get shut down they had the opportunity to come into compliance and reopen.    What is being done to the cruise lines is almost a%% backwards and it is completely unamerican.

 

Hank

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1 minute ago, bEwAbG said:

 

I cannot imagine the offer wasn't made, but who knows?  The CDC has made their position known and re-confirmed that they're not dropping the phased approach, which is what the cruise lines are pushing them to do.

But is that because they just realized it was on them to change....the Director seemed to think it involved others not her agency.....sad.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

 But if you read the guidelines the CDC has said they can extend the restrictions/shutdown.  Without legal action the CDC, could in theory, keep the cruise lines shut down forever!

 

Hank

 

 

Which is a fear we have.....and why we are starting to book cruises that begin and end elsewhere.....as much as 2 years out.....why take a chance that the current situation will change....

Edited by Gracie115
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1 minute ago, Gracie115 said:

But is that because they just realized it was on them to change....the Director seemed to think it involved others not her agency.....sad.

I love our republic but whenever there is a change in administrations the higher ups rarely know what they are doing.  The new CDC directory is no exception.

 

Saying I love our republic, I do not expect it to survive for my grandchildren.  The British Empire has only survived because it has adapted.  The USA seems to eat itself instead.

 

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24 minutes ago, Aloha 1 said:

Here's a better question: Why is the head of the CDC, a MEDICAL organization, a political appointee??

Good question but keep in mind the previous CDC political appointee advocated for the longer shut-down, the new administration is following suit.  IMO, both made very wise decisions.

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3 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I mentioned this in another post but here goes again.  You need to listen to yourself!  What you are saying that a private business (i.e. cruise line) must submit a plan and justify itself to an agency of the US Government.   There was a time when anyone could open a business and the burden was on the government to prevent a business from operating.   Now, an agency of the US Government has shut down an entire industry (with some decent justification) but continued to keep that business shut down for over a year without providing any recourse, due process,  or even an explanation of their current action.  The Government has, so far, refused to provide any regulations or procedures for that industry to operate nor have they said if and when that business (cruise industry) will ever be allowed to reopen....if ever!

Some here point out that the Nov 1 framework expires on Oct 31 so they assume things will resume at that time.  But if you read the guidelines the CDC has said they can extend the restrictions/shutdown.  Without legal action the CDC, could in theory, keep the cruise lines shut down forever!

 

You keep saying versions of this but are not correct in the underlying facts.  The cruise lines haven't finished their part of the first step in order to move on to the second step.  Here is a quote from a news article earlier this week from Richard Fain: “Interestingly, [CSO] calls for a four-phase process, and now we’re four months into it, and we’re still in phase one and don’t know what’s required for phase two."  To say they're waiting for the details of Phase 2 before they can finish Phase 1 is disingenuous at best (a distraction, as I noted in an earlier comment). 

 

Had they done a better job of self-policing their industry at the beginning of the pandemic, they would likely be getting more benefit of the doubt.  Also, there are plenty of industries that receive tighter regulation & more scrutiny when they have proven to be untrustworthy.  See the meatpacking industry in the early 20th century for a good example.

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3 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Good question but keep in mind the previous CDC political appointee advocated for the longer shut-down, the new administration is following suit.  IMO, both made very wise decisions.

The career bureaucrats run things in DC- not the heads.  It's always been that way.

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3 minutes ago, bEwAbG said:

 

You keep saying versions of this but are not correct in the underlying facts.  The cruise lines haven't finished their part of the first step in order to move on to the second step.  Here is a quote from a news article earlier this week from Richard Fain: “Interestingly, [CSO] calls for a four-phase process, and now we’re four months into it, and we’re still in phase one and don’t know what’s required for phase two."  To say they're waiting for the details of Phase 2 before they can finish Phase 1 is disingenuous at best (a distraction, as I noted in an earlier comment). 

 

Had they done a better job of self-policing their industry at the beginning of the pandemic, they would likely be getting more benefit of the doubt.  Also, there are plenty of industries that receive tighter regulation & more scrutiny when they have proven to be untrustworthy.  See the meatpacking industry in the early 20th century for a good example.

Ever read The Jungle?  You'll never eat a hot dog again.

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11 minutes ago, cltnccruisers said:

I love our republic but whenever there is a change in administrations the higher ups rarely know what they are doing.  The new CDC directory is no exception.

 

Saying I love our republic, I do not expect it to survive for my grandchildren.  The British Empire has only survived because it has adapted.  The USA seems to eat itself instead.

 

 

 

Unfortunately I think you may be right....

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34 minutes ago, Aloha 1 said:

Here's a better question: Why is the head of the CDC, a MEDICAL organization, a political appointee??


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

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Just now, markeb said:


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

There you go, spoiling the narrative by throwing out facts. Really!

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For what is or isn't being done by the industry I have a couple of on-board contacts that have given me so-so updates.  More importantly, I have a good friend who is a Sr VP with a corporation that installs and maintains the HVAC and vacuum systems for most of the major lines.  He tells me they have all been making major system upgrade but are pretty much doing so in the dark.  Consequently they don't really know if what they are doing will be satisfactory.

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3 minutes ago, markeb said:


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

 

Perhaps she should have been brought up to speed on everything they are overseeing......

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4 minutes ago, markeb said:


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

But the Director of HHS is, so by extension....

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10 minutes ago, markeb said:


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

Not nominee - appointee.  A nominee has to be approved - an appointee can be the president's cousin and still get the job.

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31 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I mentioned this in another post but here goes again.  You need to listen to yourself!  What you are saying that a private business (i.e. cruise line) must submit a plan and justify itself to an agency of the US Government.   There was a time when anyone could open a business and the burden was on the government to prevent a business from operating.   Now, an agency of the US Government has shut down an entire industry (with some decent justification) but continued to keep that business shut down for over a year without providing any recourse, due process,  or even an explanation of their current action.  The Government has, so far, refused to provide any regulations or procedures for that industry to operate nor have they said if and when that business (cruise industry) will ever be allowed to reopen....if ever!

Some here point out that the Nov 1 framework expires on Oct 31 so they assume things will resume at that time.  But if you read the guidelines the CDC has said they can extend the restrictions/shutdown.  Without legal action the CDC, could in theory, keep the cruise lines shut down forever!

 

I spent over 30 years a government employee/regulator in the healthcare industry.  If we had an issue with a healthcare facility we could not just shut it down because we felt like it....but we had to go through a specific legal process and cite the facility.  In most cases they would be given an opportunity to to make corrections (based on our regulations) in which case they could continue to operate.  Even if they did get shut down they had the opportunity to come into compliance and reopen.    What is being done to the cruise lines is almost a%% backwards and it is completely unamerican.

 

Hank

Just because one does not like a law, does not make it un-American.  CDC has the authority to do what they are doing.  BTW I put my hearing aid to type this to be sure I could hear the click on the keyboard.

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5 minutes ago, markeb said:


The Director of the CDC isn’t a political nominee. They’re actually hired by the Secretary of HHS. They’re technically not even a Presidential Appointee. 

Just to confirm your view of the facts.  The Director of the CDC and the Secretary of HHS cannot be fired by the head of the executive branch, the President?   The heads of those agencies do not (or cannot ) change when the Administration changes?  Are you sure?  

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4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Not that it will make any difference to some.  🙄

Especially when the facts are wrong.  Jut putting the word fact in front of a statement does not make it a fact.  

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