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CDC denies cruise sector's request to lift US sailing restrictions


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14 hours ago, Tolkmit said:

 

Pointing out what Fauci and the CDC said eventually, while ignoring what is being talked about, what they said from January through mid-March, is a blatant logical fallacy called a straw-man argument.

 

If you can't be a cheerleader for the CDC without resorting to these sorts of dodges; maybe you should reconsider your blind faith in them.

It’s a puzzle. Who to believe; those relying on science who may react too slowly for sone, or those with a “feeling” about the severity of the virus.

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13 hours ago, Tolkmit said:

 

You made a post that talked more about stuff said in April (irrelevant), and emphasized a single statement made in January while ignoring the fact the CDC held the same position for months even after all the initial qualifiers made in a single statement were no longer true. It was just more straw man fallacies.

 

Which medical scientist had a study showing that airlines using the same bridge to the plane for 10+ separate groups of passengers over a 12 hour period was safe; but cruise lines doing the same for 2 groups of passengers wasn't? Obviously, none of them did. Because you aren't putting your faith in medical scientists, you are putting your faith in the CDC. You are just going on faith that every policy & decision they make is fair and backed up by science, despite overwhelming evidence and basic common sense making it obvious that isn't true.

You also seem to be working under the assumption that the CDC's goal is to allow cruising to resume when it's safe to do so. All while ignoring the reality, that cruising has NEVER been completely safe! Not 100%. There has always been a small chance of someone bringing on board influenza, norovirus, or some antibiotic resistant superbug and it being spread on the ship. It's just that the chances of that happening were always about the same as they are on land. Now, with Covid-19, you support them keeping cruising closed until science says it's "safe." Ignoring that being an impossible goal. The data says, cruises are, right now with current plans in place, safer than being on land when it comes to chances of catching Covid-19. That's always been good enough in the past. The CDC has decided, not based on any scientific study, but purely as a political policy decision, for cruise lines exclusively that is no longer an acceptable level of safety. Every study shows that flights are still a small risk; CDC allows them. Trains are still a small risk; CDC allows them. Amusement parks are still a small risk; CDC allows them. Hotels are still a small risk, CDC allows them. Cruising is still a small risk, but CDC shuts them down. Supporting the CDC isn't supporting science, it's supporting that political policy.

HEAR, HEAR!!  Excellent post.  I see you are fairly new to CC, so welcome aboard and hope to see you post more.  IDK how we lower the volume on politics, but it seems to invade every aspect of life.  

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7 minutes ago, richsea said:

It’s a puzzle. Who to believe; those relying on science who may react too slowly for some, or those with a “feeling” about the severity of the virus.

Okay, but not all scientists think and believe the same things.  Politicians select the ones they want to listen to and can claim are following the experts.  If there is no voice for another point of view, then all we know is the one story, regardless of its common sense.

 

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On 3/24/2021 at 4:05 PM, voljeep said:

there will be cruises from US ports before 11/1/21 - CDC will cave at some point

 

On 3/24/2021 at 4:16 PM, Lady Arwen said:

Thank you, I feel so much better knowing you’re on the case.  Could you please share the source of your wisdom.  

 

On 3/24/2021 at 5:13 PM, voljeep said:

99 days ( or so ) until 7/1/21 - the next Princess scheduled cruise ...

 

a 7 day cruise on 7/3/21 has a final payment date of 4/4/21 ... about 10 days

 

next Princess "pause" ???

not a pause, just deferring to 60 days final payment

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4 hours ago, richsea said:

It’s a puzzle. Who to believe; those relying on science who may react too slowly for sone, or those with a “feeling” about the severity of the virus.

 

Ah yes, the science said masks didn't slow down virus spread. That's why, before April when the CDC and Fauci said they were necessary, you never saw them used in hospitals. Crazy how other countries, at the same time the CDC was saying they weren't necessary, were advicing their citizens to wear them! What were they thinking??

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36 minutes ago, Tolkmit said:

 

Ah yes, the science said masks didn't slow down virus spread. That's why, before April when the CDC and Fauci said they were necessary, you never saw them used in hospitals. Crazy how other countries, at the same time the CDC was saying they weren't necessary, were advicing their citizens to wear them! What were they thinking??

Hospitals never used masks for protections until April? Are you serious?

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, richsea said:

Hospitals never used masks for protections until April? Are you serious?

 

Of course I'm not being serious. I'm facetiously mocking you for implying Fauci & the CDC were relying on science when they said masks were unnecessary by pointing out the absurd situation that would have existed if that were true.

Edited by Tolkmit
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Sorry. Have to join this non-debate.

 

For me, the big moment arrived when China quarantined 40 million people in late January. Never been done before. Just two weeks after saying that covid was not human transmitted. Boom!

 

Then, Italy was overrun in a month. Boom.

 

So many studies during the spring and summer. Were you aware?

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/how-an-experiment-helped-one-italian-town-find-submerged-infections-cut-new-covid-19-cases-to-zero

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lbsbusinessstrategyreview/2020/04/06/how-many-people-have-really-died-from-covid-19/?sh=7bcf4d767f7b

 

https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/06/08/emergency-covid-19-measures-prevented-more-than-500-million-infections-study-finds/

 

 

Since then, we've seen attempts by the libertarian types to deny the existence of covid. Then, deny its danger. Deny its longevity etc...

 

https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/covid-19-antibody-seroprevalence-in-santa-clara-county-california/

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/just-7-3-stockholm-had-135303599.html

 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/health-coronavirus-vaccines-skeptic/

 

Some people with science backgrounds have tried and gotten egg on their faces. Of course,!

 

Who do you listen to? Who has deep knowledge of infectious diseases? Who's in touch with the leading researchers? Who's been warning about the variants?

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/491224-scott-gottlieb-becomes-key-voice-warning-trump-gop-on-coronavirus

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/covid-19-what-we-learned-since-the-first-us-case-was-confirmed.html

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-variants-insight/when-will-it-end-how-a-changing-virus-is-reshaping-scientists-views-on-covid-19-idUSKBN2AV1T1

 

Fauci says that on January 10th, 'they' made the decision to go all out for a vaccine. Currently, Fauci etc are wearing masks after being vax. So, are you smarter than they?

 

Politicians have made their choices. They should be held accountable. So, elections have consequences. What's happened in BC, NZ and USA?

 

Then, let's look forward. What choices are you going to make?

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/biogen-conference-in-boston-now-tied-to-more-than-300000-coronavirus-cases/2254941/

 

 

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11 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Since then, we've seen attempts by the libertarian types to deny the existence of covid. Then, deny its danger. Deny its longevity etc...

 

https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/covid-19-antibody-seroprevalence-in-santa-clara-county-california/

 

 

 

 

 

I would not call them libertarians but more like people from the dark ages in their thinking.....they seem to think that Dr. Fauci and other scientists are somehow witches conjuring up all kinds of evil for the masses and they are out to free us from the tyranny of it all.  God Help America!!!!

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21 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

Okay, but not all scientists think and believe the same things.  Politicians select the ones they want to listen to and can claim are following the experts.  If there is no voice for another point of view, then all we know is the one story, regardless of its common sense.

 

<-- Nods

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As much as I want this all over and lets get sailing again I understand why they are taking there time.  Not sure if you have heard of our hockey the Vancouver canucks while in isloation 16 players all have covid now.  So lets look at it this way imagine on a cruise ship I think taking our time for another 6 or 8 months and we can sail safe hopefully and don't need to have masks hopefully and enjoy our trip that is my two cents 

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Hello! Majority of the Canucks hockey team infected by the Brazil variant. That's a professional sports team.

 

Some reported to be seriously ill. Family members also infected. This is covid reality!

 

Science is not about common sense. Its about hypothesis, null hypothesis, data, analysis, logic, repeatable results.

 

Suggest that you leave science to the science people...

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/mutations-could-make-current-covid-vaccines-ineffective-soon-survey.html

 

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Posted (edited)

When 2 people in an organization think alike, one is redundant.

 

Disagreement is good and usually leads to teaching and learning at the same time, and the result is a better "product" whatever that product is, as well as "buy in" by more people who are involved.

 

That is not happening in this issue-It's all one sided with the CDC or other unnamed factions in the government, and give the media an assist for adding to the fear. I never hear anybody in power saying "On the other hand". It is a real concern for the covid issue but I think it, Covid,  is being mitigated, even if its herd immunity. The real issue is the process is not as good as it should and can be--in a democracy, free enterprise Republic. 

 

And it's all divided our population most of which have strong feelings one way or another, and are correct to some point.

 

Will this be any difference the next time??

 

Now, just ask when  has the CDC been "promising" or encouraging  in this for the cruise lines? Throw a bone out at a minimum. Or just tell everybody that the govt has all the answers and this is the way we will be doing things from here on out.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by HMR74
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There's always some disagreement in an organization. Yet, decisions have to be made. Decisions that will be right or flawed. How did 2020 turn out?

 

In a debate, you should participate in good faith. Do research. Get the facts right...

 

At some point, Congress will insist on an inquiry into the Administration's role in the pandemic during 2020. IMO, the most interesting part will be the first 5 months (January to June).

 

The Covid Task Force (White House Coronavirus Task Force) was launched on January 29 to advise the administration, and to co-ordinate the response. Fauci (NIH) and Redfield were members from the beginning.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Coronavirus_Task_Force

 

HHS Azar was the first chair, and also the CDC's boss. During the first month, the CDC and Azar were closely aligned in public. For example, on the infamous 'no mask required at this time' advisory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Azar#Testing

 

After VP Pence was appointed to head the CTF, he is the highest ranking member of the administration, and de facto head of the pandemic response. Fauci and Redfield are mere members representing their agencies.

 

From March, Pence seems to have allowed a decentralized responsibility for policy. Allowing the CDC to issue (March 14) and renew the No Sail Order.

 

Inevitable because of their difficulty in 'aligning' policies with the emerging science.

 

In March, CDC stepped up its pandemic response as cases and deaths escalated. Issuing its cloth mask advisory as confirmed deaths reached 4,746 on April 1st (42 cases and 2 deaths by March 1st).

 

In October, Pence was able to persuade CDC to issue a Conditional Sailing Order based on a Framework. At this point, the CDC is operating as an independent regulatory agency. It can't just life the No Sail Order while the HHS has a declaration of Public Health Emergency in effect.

 

Note that Collins (NIH) was added in May. IMO, this was a political move prior to Fauci's ouster from the Task Force. In the end, it was not possible or necessary since the CTF seems to have become defunct, as well as dysfunctional.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-23/trump-hasn-t-met-with-virus-task-force-in-months-fauci-says

 

There was no national mask strategy, testing policy, no national policy on the self-quarantine of infected people, no testing program on incoming travellers, no program on the self-quarantine of returning travellers, no national policy on re-opening etc.

 

The only national pandemic response seemed to be the CDC's No Sail Order (March 14). Ottawa has had a mask mandate on flights since April 2020.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/people-are-refusing-mandatory-orders-to-wear-masks-on-flights-and-its-causing-mayhem-with-other-passengers/ar-BB16xiGm

 

The only successful national operational program was vaccine development. Multiple people now are taking credit for that.

 

How many lives would have been saved if the CDC etc had been allowed to run national programs for testing, tracing, tracking, masking and re-opening? 🙄

 

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8 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

How many lives would have been saved if the CDC etc had been allowed to run national programs for testing, tracing, tracking, masking and re-opening? 

In the rundown of the past in your post, you never mentioned the CDC wanting to do any of the above and being stopped by someone outside the CDC.  Are you suggesting they wanted/tried to do all of the above and were stopped?

 

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On 3/31/2021 at 4:58 PM, TNTLAMB said:

Once you get past the conspiracy buffs who blame the Chinese for the Pandemic

 

On 3/31/2021 at 8:37 PM, Steelers36 said:

Who do you think is to blame?  Or do you assess any blame at all?

 

 

CC pinged me about some additional "likes" for my post #184 above and it made me think to clarify - perhaps unnecessarily, if it was not already obvious - that whenever I reference "the Chinese" associated with the Coronavirus that causes Covid-19 (origination Wuhan), that I would be thinking of the CCP government and not Chinese citizens.

I am also presuming that @TNTLAMB had the very same thinking. 

 

There has been too much lashing out at Chinese Americans and Canadians as if they had anything to do with the pandemic origins.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

 

 

CC pinged me about some additional "likes" for my post #184 above and it made me think to clarify - perhaps unnecessarily, if it was not already obvious - that whenever I reference "the Chinese" associated with the Coronavirus that causes Covid-19 (origination Wuhan), that I would be thinking of the CCP government and not Chinese citizens.

I am also presuming that @TNTLAMB had the very same thinking. 

 

There has been too much lashing out at Chinese Americans and Canadians as if they had anything to do with the pandemic origins.

 

14 minutes ago, rabin1 said:

I might be in the minority but I believe the virus escaped from that virology lab in Wuhan. VERY CLOSE to wet market. I have 3 reasons. One some of their scientists got covid that were working in the lab and two the place the market gets the bats from is far away and NONE of those farmers or anyone near them got the virus. All those doctors that warned all of this have disappeared or died too suspicious for me. Former CDC Redford or Redfield or whatever his name is believes that as well but could not say it while he was the director but has said so now.

Also I agree with what President Trump called it the China Virus. That does not mean the Asian people should be punished for what their communist government did

Kathy

Agreed that to reasonable and logical people, it’s the CCP government that you all are referring to implicitly.

 

BUT there are a lot of crazies out there now and some with guns or knives who are eager to find scapegoats, particularly the elderlies and the vulnerables to bully...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/03/us/anti-asian-attacks.html

Edited by ebeluga
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14 minutes ago, rabin1 said:

Also I agree with what President Trump called it the China Virus. That does not mean the Asian people should be punished for what their communist government did

Kathy

I must admit I get a kick out of all these people who insist it's xenophobic to refer to it as the China virus  having no problem referring to the South African, Brazilian, or U.K. variants.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Redwing55 said:

I agree.  I've been scratching my head all along.  And location labels don't put blame on a people.. it's just an identifier.  Frankly, people are just too sensitive about most things.  Guess it's me.(I'd say just me, but I know there are others.)

I LOVE the doggie picture in your profile. I actually like animals better than people. Too bad the people of the world couldn't love like a doggie.

Kathy

Edited by rabin1
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11 hours ago, TNTLAMB said:

 

I would guess that the reason its called a variant is because it is.

 

The point is not that it is called a variant but that there is no objection to calling the variants by the geographical names of South African, Brazilian, or U.K. while there seems to be a lot of opposition to calling the virus by it geographical origin.

 

Somehow "China virus" is offensive but "Brazil variant" is not.

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MIAMI – Gov. Ron DeSantis held a news conference at PortMiami Thursday morning, at which time he announced that the state would be filing a lawsuit against the federal government and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, demanding that cruise ships be allowed to start sailing immediately.

 

JUST ANNOUNCED ON OUR LOCAL TV STATIONS IN MIAMI.

GO DESANTIS you rock

 

Kathy

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10 hours ago, rabin1 said:

MIAMI – Gov. Ron DeSantis held a news conference at PortMiami Thursday morning, at which time he announced that the state would be filing a lawsuit against the federal government and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, demanding that cruise ships be allowed to start sailing immediately.

 

JUST ANNOUNCED ON OUR LOCAL TV STATIONS IN MIAMI.

GO DESANTIS you rock

 

Kathy

Boring......anybody can sue anybody.....nothing will happen....political stunt....yawn!!!

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On 4/8/2021 at 8:00 PM, PrincessLuver said:

Boring......anybody can sue anybody.....nothing will happen....political stunt....yawn!!!

 

But I bet if Andrew Cuomo sued it would be compassionate statesmanship.

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7 hours ago, scottca075 said:

 

But I bet if Andrew Cuomo sued it would be compassionate statesmanship.

 

WOW.....very cynical....but nothing has change even though a fake lawsuit has been filed......still no cruising because the cruise industry cannot guarantee Covid safety in their ship environments no matter who throws a political tantrum!!!

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2 hours ago, PrincessLuver said:

WOW.....very cynical....

 

I come by my cynicism honestly in reading these forums and others.

 

Lawsuits take time, I think the hope is for an injunction based on their likeliness to prevail at trial.

 

I would read Kimberly Strassel's opinion piece in the WSJ yesterday. Between that and the reluctance of CDC and NIAID people refusing to answer direct questions in Congressional testimony about what their metrics are for reopening things like cruising tells me the continuing restrictions aren't really about the spread of the virus anymore.

 

U.S. airlines carried 26.5 million passengers in February 2021 with no apparent problems, but there is no cruising?

 

It is well past the time for the CDC to present a clear, concise timetable and metrics.

 

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