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CDC Ruining Cruising in the US


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We choose to do vaccinations in a politically expedient manner,  in lieu of a more practical manner that would have saved more lives. We know the co morbidities that are more likely to cause death or severe illness with this virus. For purely political reasons the country chose to vaccinate otherwise healthy 70 year olds in front of 45 year olds with those dangerous morbidities. We choose to vaccinate healthy 25 year old teachers in front of generally unhealthy grocery or other food services personnel. Those political decisions weigh heavily on the continuing spread and death rates. That horse is out of the barn and I believe we learned nothing from it. 

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On a positive note for my state of Colorado: Fresh from the AP. We are starting 16 yrs and up and hope to have anyone who wants vaccine done by mid May. 

 

With the updated distribution, Polis said that the state could look forward to a “fairly normal summer” due to widespread immunity from vaccines.

 

If our state can do it,  our cruise lines with all vaccinated on board should make it too. 

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To make this all more interesting.  Gov Desantis (of Florida) has stated that through executive order he will prohibit "vaccine passports".  With Florida being a major embarkation port, this made it all a lot more interesting.  FOOD FIGHT!

 

Gov Desantis' rule is effectively making vaccine passports illegal if they are used as a means to prevent entry for people who are unvaccinated if they are denied access for only the reason they are unvaccinated or do not have a passport.

 

I neither encourage nor discourage vaccinations.  I believe getting vaccinated has has been for a very long time (with the exception of NY and CA) optional.  I truly believe that for some people they really should be vaccinated - but it is there choice.

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Just now, msears101 said:

To make this all more interesting.  Gov Desantis (of Florida) has stated that through executive order he will prohibit "vaccine passports".  With Florida being a major embarkation port, this made it all a lot more interesting.  FOOD FIGHT!

 

Gov Desantis' rule is effectively making vaccine passports illegal if they are used as a means to prevent entry for people who are unvaccinated if they are denied access for only the reason they are unvaccinated or do not have a passport.

 

I neither encourage nor discourage vaccinations.  I believe getting vaccinated has has been for a very long time (with the exception of NY and CA) optional.  I truly believe that for some people they really should be vaccinated - but it is there choice.

Only the federal government has the right to set the health and safety rules for cruise ships. The governor can blow all the hot air he wants but he has no legal authority in this matter.

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The governor, makes the rules while the boat is in his state.  The ship must obey all state rules and laws.  I know this is funny .... if Florida had a triple mask rule, every cruise line WOULD have to follow it.  So vaccine passports unless it is a federal document, the FL Gov't can outlaw its use in Florida. 

 

Some other examples of state law on cruise ships like paying tax while on board the ship when docked in Key west for example.  If they want to check vaccine passports outside of the state or while in international waters, then they can do it.  I believe the Governor has the authority to do it.

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1 hour ago, msears101 said:

The governor, makes the rules while the boat is in his state.  The ship must obey all state rules and laws.  I know this is funny .... if Florida had a triple mask rule, every cruise line WOULD have to follow it.  So vaccine passports unless it is a federal document, the FL Gov't can outlaw its use in Florida. 

 

Some other examples of state law on cruise ships like paying tax while on board the ship when docked in Key west for example.  If they want to check vaccine passports outside of the state or while in international waters, then they can do it.  I believe the Governor has the authority to do it.

Only the CDC has the authority to set health and safety standards for ships in US waters engaging in international or interstate travel. Only the federal government has authority over the use of navigable waterways. 

The Commerce Clause of the constitution, Article 1 Section 8, Clause 3, authorizes Congress to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the states. Generally it has been interpreted by the courts as not only granting Congress the specific regulatory authority, but also prohibiting the states from doing so.

If the CDC wants every cruise passenger to produce proof of vaccination it has every right to do so.

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13 hours ago, msears101 said:

To make this all more interesting.  Gov Desantis (of Florida) has stated that through executive order he will prohibit "vaccine passports".  With Florida being a major embarkation port, this made it all a lot more interesting.  FOOD FIGHT!

 

Gov Desantis' rule is effectively making vaccine passports illegal if they are used as a means to prevent entry for people who are unvaccinated if they are denied access for only the reason they are unvaccinated or do not have a passport.

 

I neither encourage nor discourage vaccinations.  I believe getting vaccinated has has been for a very long time (with the exception of NY and CA) optional.  I truly believe that for some people they really should be vaccinated - but it is there choice.

 

I'm wondering if his announcement on "vaccine passports" is a pushback against those in power who do not want citizens to have to show an ID to vote?  

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On 3/29/2021 at 8:32 PM, clo said:

Which of course it won't. But these people are suffering enormously and this country has room for them all. What if they were coming from Canada?

 

On 3/29/2021 at 8:32 PM, clo said:

Which of course it won't. But these people are suffering enormously and this country has room for them all. What if they were coming from Canada?

What is your home address?  We can send them all to your area and let you deal with this.  A country without borders is not a country.  This border situation is becoming more dangerous/serious by the day.  You say that our country has room for every person in the world that is suffering?  Surely you are making this comment just to elicit the responses that you usually get.  I guess I took the bait.

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12 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Only the CDC has the authority to set health and safety standards for ships in US waters engaging in international or interstate travel. Only the federal government has authority over the use of navigable waterways.

 

The short answer is that the Whitehouse has said there will NOT be a federal vaccine passport or a federal vaccine passport requirement for travel (and other things) this week in a press release.   The WhiteHouse has control over CDC so I would not expect them to go against this policy.   That all said, the potential Florida law/executive order will be the rule while boarding ia Florida port. Typically documentation and forms are filled out on land. That all said cruise lines could get around this by checking vaccine passports while customers are outside of the state and not enforce it for in state residents. Maybe the cruise lines could ports all move to another state or country like they already have done.  Florida has a lot of weight in the travel industry.  My point of bringing this up is it will shape the future of travel. I am not saying it is good or bad, but that it has weight and can't be dismissed.

 

I get you might be scared of covid.  Many people are.  I get that you (and other people) want to be safe.  I guess that you (and want others) want vaccine passports.   Whatever your angle - knowing both sides will help you push for what you want or at least help you get what you want.  This whole requiring vaccines is beyond tricky.  There are so many obstacles in this disjointed union (country) of ours.  In my opinion - it will come down to economics, not law or rules.  The rules and law might shape the economics.  Right now  vaccine hesitancy is a real issue.  The cruise line will have to weigh the people who won't get on a ship without everyone being vaccinated and people who won't get the vaccine.  And which group has more economic impact.  Either way they lose some percentage of their current customer base.  I think the initial result will be vaccinated cruises and unvaccinated cruises, which I think is terrible because it creates a division.

 

As a last side note.  The white card that most people are given after their first vaccination, that has the CDC logo on it, is NOT an official document and has no legal status and is not proof of vaccination.  The form is freely downloadable from government websites. If you want proof of vaccine, this is not it.

 

Also when you get vaccinated you will get a document and it will unequivocally say, that this vaccine is NOT approved.  Why is this important? No federal agency will consider making it mandatory until it is approved.  All three vaccines have only been authorized for emergency use.  EUA.

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1 hour ago, SargassoPirate said:

I'm wondering if his announcement on "vaccine passports" is a pushback against those in power who do not want citizens to have to show an ID to vote? 

So this is interesting.  I have thought the same thing. It is a very good question and it will probably be answered in the courts.  Right now most states and vaccine sites are requiring ID to vaccinated there are exceptions - which is against the norm of getting a flu or shingles vaccine.  You show your insurance card, which hardly identifies you.  Without showing an ID how do you prove who really received the vaccine.  As you astutely pointed out, how is this different from the requirement to show ID while voting.  It is a quagmire. When you unravel one, it impacts the other one.  It is a balancing act and I think your suggestion is correct that some powers that be are using vaccines distribution and passports to  advance or hinder other issues which will surely relate and impact travel.

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39 minutes ago, msears101 said:

The short answer is that the Whitehouse has said there will NOT be a federal vaccine passport or a federal vaccine passport requirement for travel (and other things) this week in a press release.   The WhiteHouse has control over CDC so I would not expect them to go against this policy.   

 

That's a misinterpretation of what the White House said.  They stated that the federal government would not be creating a vaccine passport but rather they are leaving it to the private sector to do it and the government is actually involved in setting the criteria for its development:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-vaccine-passports-private-sector/

""This is going to hit all parts of society, and so naturally, the government is involved," Andy Slavitt, acting director for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, said during a White House COVID-19 briefing Monday. "But unlike other parts of the world, the government here is not viewing its role as the place to create a passport, nor a place to hold the data of — of citizens. We view this as something that the private sector is doing and will do. What's important to us, and we're leading an interagency process right now to go through these details, are that some important criteria be met with these credentials."

 

Further, the president signed an executive order directing federal agencies to see if it would be feasible to link COVID vaccination to the ICVP, which is the WHO's "Yellow Card" that is the internationally accepted vaccine documentation. (From the same source cited above)

 

"But President Biden in January did sign an executive order directing federal agencies to see how feasible it would be to connect COVID-19 vaccines to vaccine cards. 

"Consistent with applicable law, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of HHS, and the Secretary of Homeland Security (including through the Administrator of the TSA), in coordination with any relevant international organizations, shall assess the feasibility of linking COVID-19 vaccination to International Certificates of Vaccination or Prophylaxis (ICVP) and producing electronic versions of ICVPs," the executive order reads in the Federal Register. "

 

IMO Florida still could not prevent a cruise line from requiring proof of vaccination even if the CDC does not mandate proof. It would still violate the Commerce Clause of the constitution because it would be state interference in international and interstate commerce. Again, the courts have generally held that states are prohibited from such activity even in the absence of federal law or regulation. States are not permitted to step into the vacuum.

1 hour ago, msears101 said:

 

I get you might be scared of covid.  Many people are.  I get that you (and other people) want to be safe.  I guess that you (and want others) want vaccine passports.

Don't try to read my mind or guess at my motivation. It's offensive and ignorant.  I haven't said one word speculating about your motivation.. The sole purpose of my response is to explain why the governor would in all probability not legally be able to prevent proof of vaccination from being required to take a cruise originating in Florida

 

1 hour ago, msears101 said:

As a last side note.  The white card that most people are given after their first vaccination, that has the CDC logo on it, is NOT an official document and has no legal status and is not proof of vaccination.  The form is freely downloadable from government websites. If you want proof of vaccine, this is not it.

I've said nothing about the vaccine card being proper proof. However  it may be necessary to use it temporarily while secure methods of proof are being developed.

1 hour ago, msears101 said:

 

Also when you get vaccinated you will get a document and it will unequivocally say, that this vaccine is NOT approved.  Why is this important? No federal agency will consider making it mandatory until it is approved.  All three vaccines have only been authorized for emergency use.  EUA.

 I've been vaccinated. I'm familiar with the EUA notifications you're provided.  Given that the real life efficacy and safety of the vaccines being used in the USA are rather clear with millions having been vaccinated I expect full approval to be forthcoming sooner rather than later. Again, even if there is not a federal mandate for vaccination I see little or no legal impediment preventing cruise lines from requiring it.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

"I guess that you (and want others) want vaccine passports."  

 

Since we've deposited on ATW22 and ATW23 I want what will get us into ports around the world.

 

I don't know what the Ivory Coast will want or India or China.  I do know that currently Canada does not want us or Japan or NZ or Au--all nations we will attempt to port in.....

 

and if O wants me to be vaccinated tell me what documentation to have.  If the local baseball team opens up for fans, tell me what proof i need to bring.  Cafe down the street?  Grocery store?   

 

Edited by cbb
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27 minutes ago, cbb said:

If the local baseball team opens up for fans, tell me what proof i need to bring.  Cafe down the street?  Grocery store?   

 

The Florida Governor is pushing back against the idea of a "Vaccine Passport" as a requirement to participate in normal activities in Florida.  At this time, he is not pushing back against some venues requiring that individuals be vaccinated.  He might be concerned about ' the camel's nose under the tent flap.'  Would a requirement of a specific nationwide 'vaccine passport'  just be the start of requiring a form of nationally approved identification for other purposes?  Would it finally end at being solely used to document a persons health status in relation to Covid-19?  The White House has already said they expect private industry to come up with and manage any form of vaccine passport.  Do you want to trust that a high tech company (Google, Microsoft, Amazon etc...) to manage a 'passport' system?  Do you really think that when your passport gets scanned at a venue, (Disney World, Cruise Ship, hardware store) that the passport company won't keep and sell the data as to where and when you displayed your passport?  Next thing you know, your smart phone and internet will start getting pop up ads from Sea World, Royal Caribbean, Home Depot etc...

 

I am in favor of having a counterfeit proof form confirming Covid-19 vaccinations but I don't know how thrilled I would be about it being an electronic passport managed by a private corporation and being required to show it to enter any business or venue I wish to visit.

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Just trying to figure out your stance Daniel A. You don't want a nationally approved form of ID? I carry a US passport that has gained me access to countries around the world and permits my return home.

 

In a data base there is info on where I was and on what date. It has my address and my picture.  If this is what I need to continue to travel, I'll obey the law.

 

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2 minutes ago, cbb said:

Just trying to figure out your stance Daniel A. You don't want a nationally approved form of ID? I carry a US passport that has gained me access to countries around the world and permits my return home.

 

In a data base there is info on where I was and on what date. It has my address and my picture.  If this is what I need to continue to travel, I'll obey the law.

It is fairly simple.  You don't need to show your U.S. issued passport to go to your local café, or baseball game.  I certainly do not want Google to be tracking my everyday activities and movements.  No business requires you to get a U.S. passport in order to take your grand children to see Mickey.  I also don't want a big tech company banning me from their 'passport' platform because some people in their company don't like something I posted here.  People are being banned all the time from big tech platforms with no explanations given.

 

There must be a better way.

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28 minutes ago, DrHemlock said:

To paraphrase Emile De Becque:  "We know what you are against.  What are you for?"

Gee, I dunno.  Could it be the last paragraph of post #139?

 

Reading is fundamental...

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Posted (edited)

the title of this thread is that the CDC is ruining cruising and it has morphed into someone somewhere keeping track of somebody.

 

i've been required to have a Yellow Fever card to gain entry into some ports and a passport to travel anywhere outside of the country.  Their country, their rules =their way. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by cbb
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1 hour ago, cbb said:

Just trying to figure out your stance Daniel A. You don't want a nationally approved form of ID? I carry a US passport that has gained me access to countries around the world and permits my return home.

 

In a data base there is info on where I was and on what date. It has my address and my picture.  If this is what I need to continue to travel, I'll obey the law.

 

I think there are some people who have some misguided notion that there's any privacy anymore. I came to term with that years ago. And sometime reap benefits. I have bigger fish to fry.

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7 hours ago, Daniel A said:

It is fairly simple.  You don't need to show your U.S. issued passport to go to your local café, or baseball game.  I certainly do not want Google to be tracking my everyday activities and movements.  No business requires you to get a U.S. passport in order to take your grand children to see Mickey.  I also don't want a big tech company banning me from their 'passport' platform because some people in their company don't like something I posted here.  People are being banned all the time from big tech platforms with no explanations given.

 

There must be a better way.

Google (or similar) already knows where you go and when, if you use a smart phone. If you use a computer of any type, for any reason, these companies know every site you've ever looked at and when. Even if you never use a computer or smart phone many companies sell your information to the big tech and marketing companies. What you do in public is most likely caught on some type of CCTV.

We long ago gave up privacy for convenience.

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