The elephant in the room..

[firefly333]

Just now, Butterbean1000 said:

We all have choices.  RCL is a business and they have the right to manage that business.  I have the right not to cruise with them.  It's wonderful the way that works. 

Ok by me. Though as I keep stating the vaccination rule is ONLY for this summer. It is NOT for usa departures. People read the headline and not what it says below the headline. 

 

There are rabid people on both sides. I had a guy who kept telling me read my constitution as it says he doesnt have to get a vaccination and that the supreme court has ruled. I kept saying i don't care, I'm vaccinated and cant undo it. He kept on and on about reading the constitution.. I let him have the last word and walked away. 

 

Both sides seem to not see any middle ground. It seems wierd to me only wanting to hear YOUR side in posts. The other side you find tiring. Both sides tire me out. Do it if you want or not.

 

Making conjectures for next November and then getting upset makes no sense. Wait for answers and then get upset. Being upset at what MIGHT happen ... people must like living in fear and being stressed and upset... over nothing. Dont cruise this summer, it's ok with me. I'm not either. Nov when cdc lifts is a long time off. ..at least for me. 

[firefly333]

Just now, Butterbean1000 said:

We all have choices.  RCL is a business and they have the right to manage that business.  I have the right not to cruise with them.  It's wonderful the way that works. 

Ok by me. Though as I keep stating the vaccination rule is ONLY for this summer. It is NOT for usa departures. People read the headline and not what it says below the headline. 

 

There are rabid people on both sides. I had a guy who kept telling me read my constitution as it says he doesnt have to get a vaccination and that the supreme court has ruled. I kept saying i don't care, I'm vaccinated and cant undo it. He kept on and on about reading the constitution.. I let him have the last word and walked away. 

 

Both sides seem to not see any middle ground. It seems wierd to me only wanting to hear YOUR side in posts. The other side you find tiring. Both sides tire me out. Do it if you want or not.

 

Making conjectures for next November and then getting upset makes no sense. Wait for answers and then get upset. Being upset at what MIGHT happen ... people must like living in fear and being stressed and upset... over nothing. Dont cruise this summer, it's ok with me. I'm not either. Nov when cdc lifts is a long time off. ..at least for me. 

[Butterbean1000]

1 minute ago, firefly333 said:

Ok by me. Though as I keep stating the vaccination rule is ONLY for this summer. It is NOT for usa departures. People read the headline and not what it says below the headline. 

 

There are rabid people on both sides. I had a guy who kept telling me read my constitution as it says he doesnt have to get a vaccination and that the supreme court has ruled. I kept saying i don't care, I'm vaccinated and cant undo it. He kept on and on about reading the constitution.. I let him have the last word and walked away. 

 

Both sides seem to not see any middle ground. It seems wierd to me only wanting to hear YOUR side in posts. The other side you find tiring. Both sides tire me out. Do it if you want or not.

 

Making conjectures for next November and then getting upset makes no sense. Wait for answers and then get upset. Being upset at what MIGHT happen ... people must like living in fear and being stressed and upset... over nothing. Dont cruise this summer, it's ok with me. I'm not either. Nov when cdc lifts is a long time off. ..at least for me. 

Well said. 

[jfunk138]

43 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

Both sides seem to not see any middle ground. It seems wierd to me only wanting to hear YOUR side in posts. The other side you find tiring. Both sides tire me out. Do it if you want or not.

I think part of the reluctance to cede middle ground has to do with the "one-way" nature of restrictions.  We're now on day 378 of "15 days to slow the spread".  A relatively small number of states have actually managed to roll back mask mandates, despite "existence of vaccine" being the final goal post defined in reopening plans back in June 2020.  We have public health officials talking about restrictions lasting into 2022 or 2023.  The goalposts are constantly being moved or deleted entirely.  

Negotiating a middle ground under these conditions is simply impossible, when it appears the negotiations are not in good faith.

That said: a foreign company, sailing a foreign flagged ship, out of a foreign port, is something I have very little say in the business of.  I can simply choose not to do business with them.  And I encourage others to do the same.  Vote with your wallet.

I wish one of the betting websites would start a betting market for "Days from first departure to first Covid Outbreak on a 'vaccinated' ship sailing in the Caribbean".  I'll put $100 on "less than 30 days."

[ProgRockCruiser]

1 hour ago, Butterbean1000 said:

Because the "anti-vaxxers" aren't blaming/ridiculing/verbally attacking those who choose not to get the vaccine.

Actually, yes, there are a number of folks who have "chosen" not to get the vaccine that regularly ridicule and attack folks that want to get or have already received the vaccine, accusing them of being "sheeple", falling for "state-run mainstream media", and claiming that the vaccine won't actually protect you, it is just a scam/poison/tracking device, or mark of Satan, or whatever.

 

If you need a specific example, an excellent forum-related source might be to look at some of the comments on John Heald's FB page.  Or any news station website with a story about the vaccine, just look at the comments, they are not uncommon.

Edited March 29, 2021 by ProgRockCruiser
clarity, typo

[coffeebean]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, FiremedicMike151 said:

For the record, I'm not arguing for or against the vaccine (I'm vaccinated), merely pointing out that fully unvaccinated ships are not floating death balls.  If we really want to debate "vaccines required" vs not, all we need to do is look at the boats currently out on the water..

 

 

Seems these cruises that have been sailing with un-vaccinated passengers are quite restricted. Masking and distancing are in effect. Is that correct?

[coffeebean]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:29 AM, ontheweb said:

And Royal Caribbean has been getting backlash as people post on Facebook that they will not sail on them if vaccines are required. (The article also says that those RCL Singapore cruises are not requiring vaccinations.)

 

Royal Caribbean Faces Boycott Calls as Only Vaccinated Adults Allowed on Cruise Ships (newsweek.com)

Unvaccinated people will not be able to board the ship, so seems that boycott is moot anyway. Folks can boycott all they want. They are not getting on the ship if they are not vaccinated how can this boycott be effective? Are these people for real? Do they honestly think their boycott will do any good?

[coffeebean]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:31 PM, FiremedicMike151 said:

I see similar things written in nearly every thread on this forum and I think we need to clear something up.
 

Viruses mutate independent of vaccine rates.

 

The virus didn’t mutate because your friend chose not to get vaccinated, it was going to mutate anyway, it’s literally what viruses do.

That is not how I understand it. In fact, the scientists and experts in immunology and virology have said that we must vaccinate our population as quickly as possible to stop the mutations from happening. The virus needs hosts to mutate. Without hosts (vaccinated people), the mutations will not occur as rapidly.

[coffeebean]

On 3/27/2021 at 8:30 PM, Doggielover68 said:

AMEN. 

 

Vacation is a privilege that should only be awarded to people who do the right thing. 

 

Remember back in the beginning of the pandemic when people told "scared people" to stay home? Well if you're afraid to get the vaccine, STAY HOME.

Good one!!!

[jfunk138]

41 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

That is not how I understand it. In fact, the scientists and experts in immunology and virology have said that we must vaccinate our population as quickly as possible to stop the mutations from happening. The virus needs hosts to mutate. Without hosts (vaccinated people), the mutations will not occur as rapidly.

It's a zoonotic virus.  You'd need to stop it in animal hosts as well, otherwise it continues to mutate until it's different enough the vaccine is no longer effective.

In order to actually "stop" it as you've described, all dogs, cats, mink, tigers, bears, bats, mice, hamsters, pangolins, and so on would vaccines as well.

[coffeebean]

20 hours ago, Butterbean1000 said:

I have a legit question.  If you are vaccinated, then why are you afraid of people who aren't?  Also. I have read that since the vaccine does not have any of the virus living or dead, it won't protect you from getting it, but you'll get a much milder case. Before you accused me of being an "antivaxxer", I'm not. I'm just very careful about what I put in my body. 

This is how I see it.....I'm vaccinated and I am not afraid of anyone who is not vaccinated as I go about my daily life. I'm protected 94% from contracting Covid. I've had the Moderna vaccine  and that vaccine is very effective in preventing infection, if you ask me.

 

So.....if I'm one of the 6% that does contract Covid, I'm 100% protected from moderate to severe Covid symptoms and also 100% protected from needing hospitalization. To reiterate....no, I'm not afraid of anyone who is not vaccinated.

 

Having said that, I do not want to be on a cruise ship with anyone who is not vaccinated. Reason being, if there is an outbreak of Covid on my cruise, I do not want my vacation impacted in any way to accommodate that outbreak. I do not want to miss ports, I do not want the ship to have to return to home port early and thus cut our vacation short. I don't want to feel compelled to wear a mask in public spaces so I really hope 100% vaccinated ships will forgo that guideline. I don't mind distancing from others and I've become really adept at doing that this past year.

[coffeebean]

19 hours ago, Butterbean1000 said:

..... In November I had to take my sister to the hospital so she could have surgery.  I was there for 13 hours. I came down with it 3 days later......

I'm gobsmacked the hospital allowed you to remain in the hospital for 13 hours. I was just allowed to drop off my sister when she had surgery and I picked her up when they brought her outside to my car. I was not allowed in the hospital. This is in Florida.

[ProgRockCruiser]

15 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

It's a zoonotic virus.  You'd need to stop it in animal hosts as well, otherwise it continues to mutate until it's different enough the vaccine is no longer effective.

In order to actually "stop" it as you've described, all dogs, cats, mink, tigers, bears, bats, mice, hamsters, pangolins, and so on would vaccines as well.

It (is posited that it) originated in animal hosts, but I don't know if anyone knows whether the virus currently/commonly "in the wild" is the same as the one humans are experiencing: maybe one particular non-human lifeform had the virus, it mutated in that lifeform, jumped to humans, but died out in that lifeform to no longer spread amongst the non-human population?  If it isn't capable or feasible of jumping back (again, no proof either way), it really is now just a human problem.

 

Of course, if you believe such things, if it originated in a lab then there are no instantiations of it in the wild, it is purely a human problem.  So if we eliminate it in humans, we good to go?  (Very tongue in cheek.)

 

All very hypothetical until we get some ground truth as to origins and real-world non-human data. Will probably take years to detangle.

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

It (is posited that it) originated in animal hosts, but I don't know if anyone knows whether the virus currently/commonly "in the wild" is the same as the one humans are experiencing: maybe one particular non-human lifeform had the virus, it mutated in that lifeform, jumped to humans, but died out in that lifeform to no longer spread amongst the non-human population?  If it isn't capable or feasible of jumping back (again, no proof either way), it really is now just a human problem.

 

Of course, if you believe such things, if it originated in a lab then there are no instantiations of it in the wild, it is purely a human problem.  So if we eliminate it in humans, we good to go?  (Very tongue in cheek.)

 

All very hypothetical until we get some ground truth as to origins and real-world non-human data. Will probably take years to detangle.

Where it originated is not key to the "complete vaccination" issue.

There is evidence it has jumped from both humans to animals and back to humans again in the study of the mink in Denmark:

https://scitechdaily.com/strong-evidence-of-zoonotic-covid-19-transmission-study-shows-sars-cov-2-jumped-between-people-and-mink/

"A study investigating SARS-CoV-2 infections across 16 mink farms in the Netherlands, presented at the ESCMID Conference on Coronavirus Disease (ECCVID, held online from September 23-25, 2020) shows that the virus likely jumped between people and mink and back, providing strong evidence that animal to human (zoonotic) transmission is possible."

[Butterbean1000]

12 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

I'm gobsmacked the hospital allowed you to remain in the hospital for 13 hours. I was just allowed to drop off my sister when she had surgery and I picked her up when they brought her outside to my car. I was not allowed in the hospital. This is in Florida.

She had serious cancer surgery.  Someone had to be there. Her husband was recovering from his own medical issues and was advised to stay away.  Even during this crisis some things have to go on.  Things still have to be taken care of.  I was more than willing to do this for her and I would do it again in a heartbeat. 

[coffeebean]

6 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

I third that sentiment and, as a one time New Yorker and frequent visitor, I also have zero desire to ever go back there again.   It is no longer the New York I once knew.  It was already putting me off pre covid but the nail is in the coffin now.

But, but, but......Broadway shows are the greatest entertainment we have in this United States. I can not wait for Broadway to open back up. I will be back in NY in a hot minute. Visit my family and leave on a cruise ship and look at that beautiful view of Lady Liberty as we cruise down the Hudson. Can not wait.

[asalligo]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:57 AM, FiremedicMike151 said:

There have been cruise ships sailing for months with unvaccinated passengers that haven’t lead to mass outbreaks and death...

Exactly, there is no public health reason to not let cruising restart at this point with the same restrictions that Europe is using. Morgan has been on three cruises this year in Europe unvaccinated (aghast)  and there have been no issues. They were not even all cruises in his home country. 

[coffeebean]

3 hours ago, Butterbean1000 said:

We all have choices.  RCL is a business and they have the right to manage that business.  I have the right not to cruise with them.  It's wonderful the way that works. 

If you are not going to be vaccinated, it is not your choice to make when cruising starts up in US ports with lines that require vaccination to board their ships. You CAN'T cruise on a Royal ship. It is your right to make the choice to not be able to cruise on a line that requires vaccinations. Your choice will bring you some limitations for the near future and that may also involve activities not related to cruising.

 

Not sure what the distant future will be so there may be hope you can cruise eventually on a cruise line that just may change their protocols as we get a better handle on this pandemic.

[coffeebean]

1 hour ago, jfunk138 said:

It's a zoonotic virus.  You'd need to stop it in animal hosts as well, otherwise it continues to mutate until it's different enough the vaccine is no longer effective.

In order to actually "stop" it as you've described, all dogs, cats, mink, tigers, bears, bats, mice, hamsters, pangolins, and so on would vaccines as well.

Seriously?? If that is really the case, we are all in deep trouble. 

[BlerkOne]

36 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously?? If that is really the case, we are all in deep trouble. 

Don't believe everything you read. Fear mongers like to spread fear.

[firefly333]

1 hour ago, coffeebean said:

If you are not going to be vaccinated, it is not your choice to make when cruising starts up in US ports with lines that require vaccination to board their ships. You CAN'T cruise on a Royal ship.

Again facts ...rcl is only requiring vaccinations this summer from the Caribbean. There has been nothing said about cruises from the USA.

 

Read what you quoted above.   Nothing to do with cruises from the USA . Stick to what is known.

[coffeebean]

1 hour ago, firefly333 said:

Again facts ...rcl is only requiring vaccinations this summer from the Caribbean. There has been nothing said about cruises from the USA.

 

Read what you quoted above.   Nothing to do with cruises from the USA . Stick to what is known.

You are right about that and I stand corrected. My hope is for cruise lines to require vaccinations for all passengers and crew when they start sailing from US ports (when ever that will be).

[jfunk138]

2 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Seriously?? If that is really the case, we are all in deep trouble. 

Google "Denmark mink covid" if you need a deep dive.

 

There was even news today about the animal origins of covid.  Covid is here to stay no matter how many humans get vaccinated.  

[coffeebean]

17 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Google "Denmark mink covid" if you need a deep dive.

 

There was even news today about the animal origins of covid.  Covid is here to stay no matter how many humans get vaccinated.  

No thanks. I prefer to remain blissfully naive.

[BlerkOne]

26 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Google "Denmark mink covid" if you need a deep dive.

 

There was even news today about the animal origins of covid.  Covid is here to stay no matter how many humans get vaccinated.  

Talk about