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HAL downsizing so far, ....


voyageur9
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9 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I was told it was so the Pinnacle class ships could fit in certain waterways and ports.  I don't always pay close attention to architectural discussions😎

Yes, in order for the ship to get through the Panama Canal, the lifeboats had to be placed where they are.  Otherwise they would have had to be lowered and followed the ship if it wanted to go through the Canal.  That would have been very time consuming and expensive according to an officer who explained the intricacies.

 

What I was trying to explain is that it’s the positioning of the lifeboats on the promenade deck that caused the classic promenade to shrink 😉 

 

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2 hours ago, Ichiban Nekko said:

The S and R-class ships attracted us to HAL and grabbed our loyalty. And the Prinsendam was so unique. Sadly, we never did get to experience a sailing on her (but had many bookings that had to be cancelled for a variety of reasons).

 

We had great times on Vista and Signature ships, but still preferred the smaller, more intimate S and R's.

 

Then we sailed on the Koningsdam. Game changer experience for us as consumers. Yes, many of the experiences have changed - dining comes to mind. The thought of going back to one dining venue with assigned seating  with only two available times is now incomprehensible. As is the thought of how we used to pack  And with Vistas and Signatures being updated to offer some of the Pinnacle amenities, we are happy, even if we understand that so many ports have been lost. In order to sail on ships that can access those ports, the per diem costs are at a level we are just not comfortable with.

 

One can only wonder how the Green Eyeshade people (accountants) felt as they noted the costs with keeping the older ships afloat? It must have been incredible! Most of us have a personal automobile. Think of what a car of the same vintage would cost to operate vs a new one.

 

Change is not easy. And as we emerge from the pandemic tunnel, I suspect there are going to be huge changes for the new cruise experience.

 

We are more than willing to try it out. We even look forward to it with anticipation.

 

JMHO

 

 

Well said!  Our last cruise was on the Koningsdam and although we had some trepidation prior we absolutely loved it!   The Tamarind experience alone is so worth it.  
 

 Unfortunately some change is inevitable and other lines are streamlining as well.  Princess,  Has also sold the Pacific Princess.  I too wish some of these other options remained.  
 

To clarify there is still a promenade deck on the Pinnacle class where you can walk all the way around,  unlike the new Princess ships.  What is missing is the seating.   it is easy to book a lovely large balcony which looks after this issue.  
 

When I was following this discussion a few years ago, some said the new lifeboat design was to blame, but later comments said that was not the case.  Interesting fact,  these ships were not supposed to be able to transit the Panama Canal, but the Koningsdam did last year.  
 

So give it a try and make up your own mind,  as many haven’t tried them. 
 

 

Edited by bennybear
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SOLAS 2010, I believe. Has to do with boarding the lifeboats.Older ships they are swung out and partially lowered to the promenade deck before loading. This makes it impossible to meet the new timing requirement. I think on the newer ships they can be boarded in the stowed position. The only Canal relationship that I can see is that because of this they overhang the hull. I stand to be corrected.

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Just now, john2003 said:

SOLAS 2010, I believe. Has to do with boarding the lifeboats.Older ships they are swung out and partially lowered to the promenade deck before loading. This makes it impossible to meet the new timing requirement. I think on the newer ships they can be boarded in the stowed position. The only Canal relationship that I can see is that because of this they overhang the hull. I stand to be corrected.

How would one get in a lifeboat that is in the stowed position?  Even on the Pinnacle class they are up in the air.

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On 3/28/2021 at 11:48 AM, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

@voyageur9 Capacity additions/reductions are usually repesented based on "lower" berths only (double occupancy) as that is the standard metric for ship capacity in the industry, so that may account for the differentials you noted.

 

The loss of the 4 smaller ships does however change the brand focus going forward.  The longer more unique sailings that could be offered more frequently on those vessels may not be possible to do with as much regularity going forward, so it may be several years between a particular itinerary offering, or certain itineraries may not come back at all.  Management will have to analyse what the best use of Zaandam/Volendam are and place them where they can command enough yield premium and ancillary revenue to be profitable.

 

Holland America's strongest selling point (outside of certain markets like the 7-10 night Caribbean/Mexico/Alaska) has always been their itinerary portfolio.  Especially longer, more unique sailings that can often be combined back to back to back to make a longer voyage with little port overlap.  Take that away and they are just another mainstream cruise line fighting for market share in a crowded playing field.

Agree. We did an Alaskan cruise in 2019 and weren't impressed.  We prefer 21 days and places off the beaten path.  We were big Prinsendam fans, we are giving the new Rotterdam a chance in October,  but if we don't like it, we will look at Viking and Oceania. 

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@JeffElizabeth I was lucky to do the 14 day Alaska on the Amsterdam in 2019.  It was a truly wonderful experience with some ports not as often visited by ships (Kodiak, Homer) as well as the full day stop in Anchorage proper.  Also due to the departure date we were often in port with only one other ship, if any, so never crowded.  I hope at some point they bring it back, or the 21 day they offered on Maasdam, even if only for a few sailings each year.  I'd book again in a heartbeat!

Edited by AtlantaCruiser72
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On 3/29/2021 at 3:01 PM, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

@JeffElizabeth I was lucky to do the 14 day Alaska on the Amsterdam in 2019.  It was a truly wonderful experience with some ports not as often visited by ships (Kodiak, Homer) as well as the full day stop in Anchorage proper.  Also due to the departure date we were often in port with only one other ship, if any, so never crowded.  I hope at some point they bring it back, or the 21 day they offered on Maasdam, even if only for a few sailings each year.  I'd book again in a heartbeat!

Agree. We went all the way to Kodiak in September so we were one of the last boats. And we had less crowding than usual. 

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HAL is a for profit business.   Not a social club or the local country club.

 

They make decisions based on the best financial interests of the company and shareholder.   That is how they remain in business and move forward.

 

There are other cruise lines that have chosen to cater those who prefer smaller ships and more varied 

itineraries. 

 

There is choice.....but one has to be willing to buck up and pay for that choice.    HAL cannot see their way clear to remain a mass market cruise line AND deliver the environment that some of these market specific cruise lines do.  

 

It is not HAL's fault.  It is just good business from their perspective.

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1 hour ago, iancal said:

There are other cruise lines that have chosen to cater those who prefer smaller ships and more varied itineraries.

Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd must have seen the value adding SilverSea to it's portfolio..

just saying

 

Joseph

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5 hours ago, iancal said:

HAL is a for profit business.   Not a social club or the local country club.

 

They make decisions based on the best financial interests of the company and shareholder.   That is how they remain in business and move forward.

 

There are other cruise lines that have chosen to cater those who prefer smaller ships and more varied 

itineraries. 

 

There is choice.....but one has to be willing to buck up and pay for that choice.    HAL cannot see their way clear to remain a mass market cruise line AND deliver the environment that some of these market specific cruise lines do.  

 

It is not HAL's fault.  It is just good business from their perspective.

 

Years ago Carnival Corp saw the niche for smaller vessels when they launched the newbuild program for Seabourn with 6 new ships built between 2009-2021, and shedding all the older tonnage.  Obviously Seabourn and HAL serve different client bases, with some overlap,  but Carnival Corp decided to go larger with HAL and keep Seabourn as the boutique small ship brand for the corporation.

 

Edited by AtlantaCruiser72
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3 hours ago, rucrazy said:

Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd must have seen the value adding SilverSea to it's portfolio..

just saying

 

Joseph

Meanwhile they have sold Azamara, so they obviously see more potential in the Ultra Luxury end of the market than in the Premium Plus/Luxury Lite market

 

Edited by AtlantaCruiser72
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47 minutes ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

Meanwhile they have sold Azamara, so they obviously see more potential in the Ultra Luxury end of the market than in the Premium Plus/Luxury Lite market

 

Agreed.. and they gave Azamara away cheaply my thought is they figured we can buy and established small vessel brand cheaper than building one. 

 

Joseph

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4 minutes ago, rucrazy said:

Agreed.. and they gave Azamara away cheaply my thought is they figured we can buy and established small vessel brand cheaper than building one. 

 

Joseph

 

Azamara was launched by RCG in 2007 after they decided not to put the two ships (Quest and Journey) in service with Celebrity (as originally intended after being transferred out of the Pullmantour fleet).  13 years should have been ample time to build the brand.  RCG never really put their heart into the project and the brand failed to gain recognition in the cruising community.  A wonky, hard to pronounce  name didn't help, alongside ever shifting policies and a confusing list of inclusions/exclusions, ancillary bundling options, etc  With their direct competition (Oceania and Viking) building newer ships with larger staterooms and suites and better amenities it didn't help either.  Hopefully with the acquisition of the Pacific Princess to make Azamara a 4 ship fleet, along with new new branding/product strategies, the new owners (Sycamore Partners) can make a better go of things.

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13 minutes ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

 

Azamara was launched by RCG in 2007 after they decided not to put the two ships (Quest and Journey) in service with Celebrity (as originally intended after being transferred out of the Pullmantour fleet).  13 years should have been ample time to build the brand.  RCG never really put their heart into the project and the brand failed to gain recognition in the cruising community.  A wonky, hard to pronounce  name didn't help, alongside ever shifting policies and a confusing list of inclusions/exclusions, ancillary bundling options, etc  With their direct competition (Oceania and Viking) building newer ships with larger staterooms and suites and better amenities it didn't help either.  Hopefully with the acquisition of the Pacific Princess to make Azamara a 4 ship fleet, along with new new branding/product strategies, the new owners (Sycamore Partners) can make a better go of things.

 

The Azamara brand never made sense to me as cruiser nor as a RCI shareholder.  My opinion:  CEO Fain was doing something that he (and, I guess the Board) thought was good for the Company as they competed for market share with CCL.  

 

I must say, however, that I have experienced cruising friends who sailed on an Azamara cruise and were pleased with their cruise.  

 

1 hour ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

 

Years ago Carnival Corp saw the niche for smaller vessels when they launched the newbuild program for Seabourn with 6 new ships built between 2009-2021, and shedding all the older tonnage.  Obviously Seabourn and HAL serve different client bases, with some overlap,  but Carnival Corp decided to go larger with HAL and keep Seabourn as the boutique small ship brand for the corporation.

 

 

Project Tiffany was in Mr. Arison's mind at the time HAL was acquired by CCL.  Seabourn was a logical extension of the Project Tiffany concept that I think remained in Mr. Arison's planning for CCL.  

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