Phase 2 CDC....Here We Go!

[USCcruisecrazy]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And the CDC's arguments will be that they are responsible for controlling the spread of a deadly infectious disease, and this is their area of expertise. And what court would want to be responsible if they ruled against the CDC, and the consequences were a major outbreak?

Considering they've done a pretty piss poor job of controlling it over the past 16 months, I put little credence in anything they do!  And we've already ran head on with a major outbreak, so their previous "expertise" has been less than adequate.  If this goes to court, it will be quite interesting to see the outcome.  

[broberts]

5 minutes ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

Considering they've done a pretty piss poor job of controlling it over the past 16 months, I put little credence in anything they do!  And we've already ran head on with a major outbreak, so their previous "expertise" has been less than adequate.  If this goes to court, it will be quite interesting to see the outcome.  

 

Two errors in thinking. First, that the CDC is the only entity setting pandemic control policy and regulations. Second, that your judgement of CDC performance is unbiased and accurate.

 

Everyone bears some responsibility for the pandemic. Especially those that ignored or actively undermined CDC, NIH, state and local health authorities.

[USCcruisecrazy]

1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

Two errors in thinking. First, that the CDC is the only entity setting pandemic control policy and regulations. Second, that your judgement of CDC performance is unbiased and accurate.

 

Everyone bears some responsibility for the pandemic. Especially those that ignored or actively undermined CDC, NIH, state and local health authorities.

Thanks for your response.  But, those would only be errors in thinking if I actually thought or said what you inferred.  I did not say the CDC was solely responsible...the conversation, however, was about FL taking the CDC to court so I only responded about the CDC piece.  Secondly, never claimed it was an unbiased judgment.  In fact, every judgement or opinion on every subject is biased.  They are all based on our personal interactions and knowledge obtained over time.  And yes, there are many agencies that should be held accountable for this...starting with the Chinese Government and WHO that duped the entire world from the get go.

[broberts]

27 minutes ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

Thanks for your response.  But, those would only be errors in thinking if I actually thought or said what you inferred.  I did not say the CDC was solely responsible...the conversation, however, was about FL taking the CDC to court so I only responded about the CDC piece.  Secondly, never claimed it was an unbiased judgment.  In fact, every judgement or opinion on every subject is biased.  They are all based on our personal interactions and knowledge obtained over time.  And yes, there are many agencies that should be held accountable for this...starting with the Chinese Government and WHO that duped the entire world from the get go.

 

So you blame the CDC for something you know is not under its control. 🙄

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

Considering they've done a pretty piss poor job of controlling it over the past 16 months, I put little credence in anything they do!  And we've already ran head on with a major outbreak, so their previous "expertise" has been less than adequate.  If this goes to court, it will be quite interesting to see the outcome.  

Nothing you say contradicts my point that courts give administrative agencies great latitude in their decision making. And also no court is going to want to face the blame if their decision against a public health agency ends up causing harmful results.

 

You are asking them to make a decision based on your feeling of anger as opposed to case law.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And the CDC's arguments will be that they are responsible for controlling the spread of a deadly infectious disease, and this is their area of expertise. And what court would want to be responsible if they ruled against the CDC, and the consequences were a major outbreak?

So, we agree that CDC is responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Americans because of their failure to control this disease.  Some expertise...  

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Two errors in thinking. First, that the CDC is the only entity setting pandemic control policy and regulations. Second, that your judgement of CDC performance is unbiased and accurate.

 

Everyone bears some responsibility for the pandemic. Especially those that ignored or actively undermined CDC, NIH, state and local health authorities.

Yeah, I've heard some expressions about cleaning up your own backyard before you can complain about someone else's back yard.  If you think you know better than us, then you should vote that way in the next US Congressional and Presidential elections.  We would certainly value your input in how to run our nation.  Thanks for the help.

[Steelers36]

49 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

So, we agree that CDC is responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Americans because of their failure to control this disease.  Some expertise...  

Whatever a post-mortem of the virus might reveal, I do think it is unfair and inaccurate to lay blame for all the deaths on any one agency or person.  There have been a lot of hands in the pie on this one, from all levels of governments.  Obviously, a certain number of deaths were going to occur.  Who knows what that number could/should have been and what the excess is? 

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

So, we agree that CDC is responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Americans because of their failure to control this disease.  Some expertise...  

That is not the case, nor is it what the previous poster you quoted meant.  The CDC studies epidemiology, or the spread of infectious disease, and develops best practices to combat the spread of the disease.  The CDC does not, however, have the absolute power to implement those practices across the US.  I'm sure you've seen and heard the commercials for various businesses that are open for business, and they say "we follow all recommended CDC guidelines"?  Do they say they are following "CDC regulations"?  No, because the CDC cannot make regulations for the states.  

[richsea]

There’s no way to know exactly where the responsibility for the 500,000+ deaths in the US lies, but I would bet that if the previous administration took the pandemic seriously, & even promoted  mask wearing, the number of deaths would have been drastically reduced. We had a year of our Chief Executive leading the way by practically never even wearing a mask; & his followers followed their leader.

[trbarton]

9 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

Considering they've done a pretty piss poor job of controlling it over the past 16 months, I put little credence in anything they do!  And we've already ran head on with a major outbreak, so their previous "expertise" has been less than adequate.  If this goes to court, it will be quite interesting to see the outcome.  

If any suit against the CDC were to go anywhere it would take so long that our pandemic would be over. 
 

Tom😀

[caribill]

Yes, the CDC had some major problems at the start of 2020. Main one was that they restricted testing to their own labs with their own test kits which turned out to be faulty. They also severely limited who could be tested in the first place.

 

But the CDC as part of the coronavirus task force came out with a number of standards for dealing with the epidemic and how to "open up" the country in stages if these standards were followed.

 

However it was shortly after these standards were issued that politics interfered and almost every standard was not followed by national leadership and in many cases at a state level. The blame for the great majority of the Covid related fatalities in the USA is should go to to those who ignored what the task force and CDC recommended.

[caribill]

ignore

[USCcruisecrazy]

15 hours ago, broberts said:

 

So you blame the CDC for something you know is not under its control. 🙄

Not blaming anyone.  Just supporting the idea someone put forward about FL taking the CDC to court. It's called having a conversation.  Not sure your objection to opposing opinions!

[USCcruisecrazy]

14 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Nothing you say contradicts my point that courts give administrative agencies great latitude in their decision making. And also no court is going to want to face the blame if their decision against a public health agency ends up causing harmful results.

 

You are asking them to make a decision based on your feeling of anger as opposed to case law.

Never said the courts didn't do that.  I was only supporting the idea that FL had a legit argument.  Not a Lawyer, so won't pretend I know what the courts decision will be.  As far as your ridiculous statement about me being mad, I have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm not mad about anything, especially not about the CDC. FL, or cruising.  Love to cruise, but if I never do again, it won't change my attitude about life and the joy I have every day!  But whatever floats your boat!  Pun intended!  Cheers!

[USCcruisecrazy]

6 hours ago, trbarton said:

If any suit against the CDC were to go anywhere it would take so long that our pandemic would be over. 
 

Tom😀

I see you've worked for or with the government as well!   LOL!

[ontheweb]

13 hours ago, Daniel A said:

So, we agree that CDC is responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Americans because of their failure to control this disease.  Some expertise...  

No we do not agree. First, I believe the early predictions were much higher than that 500,000. Second, as had been pointed out they only make recommendations, and many were not carried out.

[Daniel A]

8 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

No we do not agree. First, I believe the early predictions were much higher than that 500,000. Second, as had been pointed out they only make recommendations, and many were not carried out.

My response to you was intended to be hyperbole.  If CDC wants to claim that "they are responsible for controlling the spread of a deadly infectious disease, and this is their area of expertise."  Of course, CDC didn't kill 500,000 but it would be ironic for them to claim they are responsible for controlling a disease which has taken 500,000 souls as evidence of their expertise.    

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

My response to you was intended to be hyperbole.  If CDC wants to claim that "they are responsible for controlling the spread of a deadly infectious disease, and this is their area of expertise."  Of course, CDC didn't kill 500,000 but it would be ironic for them to claim they are responsible for controlling a disease which has taken 500,000 souls as evidence of their expertise.    

The CDC is in the same position as Carnival Corp's first environmental compliance officer when the corporation was placed on probation for environmental violations.  The compliance officer was given the responsibility to ensure compliance (the CDC studying diseases and setting best mitigation practices), but was not given the authority to enforce the plan (no organizational command structure or budget), just as the CDC has no authority over the states.  While Carnival Corp's plan for environmental compliance was found lacking at the subsequent hearing (resulting in the second fine), and the position of compliance officer modified to give authority with responsibility, there is no way that the CDC could be given authority over the states, and it even has limited authority over inter-state public health issues.

[Roberto256]

14 hours ago, Daniel A said:

So, we agree that CDC is responsible for the deaths of 500,000 Americans because of their failure to control this disease.  Some expertise...  

 

This is great news!   Now, I can go to spring break...

 

...knowing that if I get sick it is not my fault, it is the CDC's.

 

 

[beg3yrs]

15 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

That is not the case, nor is it what the previous poster you quoted meant.  The CDC studies epidemiology, or the spread of infectious disease, and develops best practices to combat the spread of the disease.  The CDC does not, however, have the absolute power to implement those practices across the US.  I'm sure you've seen and heard the commercials for various businesses that are open for business, and they say "we follow all recommended CDC guidelines"?  Do they say they are following "CDC regulations"?  No, because the CDC cannot make regulations for the states.  

 

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC is in the same position as Carnival Corp's first environmental compliance officer when the corporation was placed on probation for environmental violations.  The compliance officer was given the responsibility to ensure compliance (the CDC studying diseases and setting best mitigation practices), but was not given the authority to enforce the plan (no organizational command structure or budget), just as the CDC has no authority over the states.  While Carnival Corp's plan for environmental compliance was found lacking at the subsequent hearing (resulting in the second fine), and the position of compliance officer modified to give authority with responsibility, there is no way that the CDC could be given authority over the states, and it even has limited authority over inter-state public health issues.

You've heavily foot-stomped your point that the CDC only issues guidelines for the states and not regulations. I absolutely agree with you here but (you have to know there was a "but" coming) ... local public health agencies who do have the authority to issue mandates have often taken the CDC's guidelines and turned them into emergency regulations. Thus while the CDC isn't issuing regulations, it's effectively doing so because many of the local agencies (who are mostly understaffed and underfunded) are blindly following.

 

Here in Arizona there's a big fight setting up as the governor has eliminated pretty much all of the mandates and has forbidden regional agencies to be more restrictive than those at the state level. Some counties and cities have shown the state an erect middle finger claiming the governor has no such authority and continue to require masks and so on. The local agencies have however, been reluctant to cite any business that's eliminated the requirement, especially those with the wherewithal to go to court. Anyone have popcorn?

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, beg3yrs said:

Thus while the CDC isn't issuing regulations, it's effectively doing so because many of the local agencies (who are mostly understaffed and underfunded) are blindly following.

And, many of the state agencies were not blindly following, and denying any need for CDC guidelines at all.  So, with an incomplete application of the guidelines, and no authority to enforce the application, how is the CDC to blame solely for the failure of our covid response?  Are you saying that the CDC has "effective" authority over state agencies?  Authority comes with the "power to control actions".

[nocl]

1 hour ago, beg3yrs said:

 

You've heavily foot-stomped your point that the CDC only issues guidelines for the states and not regulations. I absolutely agree with you here but (you have to know there was a "but" coming) ... local public health agencies who do have the authority to issue mandates have often taken the CDC's guidelines and turned them into emergency regulations. Thus while the CDC isn't issuing regulations, it's effectively doing so because many of the local agencies (who are mostly understaffed and underfunded) are blindly following.

 

Here in Arizona there's a big fight setting up as the governor has eliminated pretty much all of the mandates and has forbidden regional agencies to be more restrictive than those at the state level. Some counties and cities have shown the state an erect middle finger claiming the governor has no such authority and continue to require masks and so on. The local agencies have however, been reluctant to cite any business that's eliminated the requirement, especially those with the wherewithal to go to court. Anyone have popcorn?

Except while same local agencies have followed the recommendations, others have not. Few areas have established and enforced the full set of recommendations. 

 

Even in the states with stricter policies some counties have refused to enforce the state requirements.

 

Many of recommendations such as travel restrictions, except for Hawaii, were restrictions in name only. No enforcement mechanism.

[beg3yrs]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, many of the state agencies were not blindly following, and denying any need for CDC guidelines at all.  So, with an incomplete application of the guidelines, and no authority to enforce the application, how is the CDC to blame solely for the failure of our covid response?  Are you saying that the CDC has "effective" authority over state agencies?  Authority comes with the "power to control actions".

No, not trying to say the CDC has effective authority. Maybe something more like a very strong influence to the point where it begins to look like some kind of authority.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, many of the state agencies were not blindly following, and denying any need for CDC guidelines at all.  So, with an incomplete application of the guidelines, and no authority to enforce the application, how is the CDC to blame solely for the failure of our covid response?  Are you saying that the CDC has "effective" authority over state agencies?  Authority comes with the "power to control actions".

But didn't @noclstate that the CDC has the authority to close state borders if in the opinion of the CDC, the state isn't doing enough to their satisfaction?