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Florida Governor bans vaccine passports


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5 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Yes.  Everything you say is true if you take a benign view of a vaccination passport.  However, I can show my vaccination records, along with any other requested health records, today.  I don't need a vaccination passport.  That said, if a vaccination passport is just another form of documenting my vaccination status I have no objection - although I could argue it's redundant and unnecessary, but let's not argue that as it's a minor point.

 

My issue is that many programs grow beyond their original intended purpose.  Once a vaccination passport exists, people/companies/governments will no doubt see extensions that would be of benefit to them.  I pointed out a couple in my original post....

  • Some cruise lines have already indicated a requirement for passengers of a certain age be certified by their Dr as fit to travel.
  • I can imagine certain travel/tour companies would like to see an indication of a traveler's mobility (mobility score?)

It would be logical for some to see these (and other) fitness to travel metrics added  to a vaccination passport should one exist.  The obvious problem is that such information could be used for subtle discrimination - letting travel companies filter out less desirable customers - or worse.

 

Of course this may not happen.  A vaccination passport may remain forever nothing more than it was originally intended to be.  It would be benign and even helpful.  The question is.....  will this be the case?  Some people strongly believe that will be the case.  For me, I see a risk.  Maybe I'm jaded, but I believe programs have a tendency to grow in scope.  Once started, they can take on a life of their own.

 

So in the final analysis, it comes down to how you assess the benefit against the risk.  For me the potential for abuse (risk) outweighs the benefit.  Others are certainly entitled to differing opinions.

The late, great Ronald Reagan said it best - "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help. "

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1 minute ago, farmermd said:

But wait - earlier you said we have equal rights but now you are saying your rights are stronger than mine.  If my medical condition prevents me from wearing a mask or getting a vaccine, how does that invade your rights?  No one is asking you to go elsewhere.  It is your choice.  

So do you.

So, why do I have to feel unsafe? 

And, why do you have to feel inconvenienced?

This is a no win thing.

I agree.

 

I do not want to go somewhere with people who are not vaccinated.

 

But I want to go to place A.

You do not have a vaccination and you also want to go to place A.

Who gets priority?

One of us will not have their rights and beliefs.

 

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5 minutes ago, morechances said:

So do you.

So, why do I have to feel unsafe? 

And, why do you have to feel inconvenienced?

This is a no win thing.

I agree.

 

I do not want to go somewhere with people who are not vaccinated.

 

But I want to go to place A.

You do not have a vaccination and you also want to go to place A.

Who gets priority?

One of us will not have their rights and beliefs.

 

And, please....please, do not say that I can wear a mask if I want to.

Because we will just go around in circles.

I should not have to wear a mask because of your not being able to get a vaccination.

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13 minutes ago, mnocket said:

So in the final analysis, it comes down to how you assess the benefit against the risk.  For me the potential for abuse (risk) outweighs the benefit.

At the end of the day, we both have an understanding of the risks and the benefits, we can appreciate one another's perspective, and we can discuss them in a rational and polite manner. That a win for both of us in my books!

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30 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Yes.  Everything you say is true if you take a benign view of a vaccination passport.  However, I can show my vaccination records, along with any other requested health records, today.  I don't need a vaccination passport.  That said, if a vaccination passport is just another form of documenting my vaccination status I have no objection - although I could argue it's redundant and unnecessary, but let's not argue that as it's a minor point.

 

My issue is that many programs grow beyond their original intended purpose.  Once a vaccination passport exists, people/companies/governments will no doubt see extensions that would be of benefit to them.  I pointed out a couple in my original post....

  • Some cruise lines have already indicated a requirement for passengers of a certain age be certified by their Dr as fit to travel.
  • I can imagine certain travel/tour companies would like to see an indication of a traveler's mobility (mobility score?)

It would be logical for some to see these (and other) fitness to travel metrics added  to a vaccination passport should one exist.  The obvious problem is that such information could be used for subtle discrimination - letting travel companies filter out less desirable customers - or worse.

 

Of course this may not happen.  A vaccination passport may remain forever nothing more than it was originally intended to be.  It would be benign and even helpful.  The question is.....  will this be the case?  Some people strongly believe that will be the case.  For me, I see a risk.  Maybe I'm jaded, but I believe programs have a tendency to grow in scope.  Once started, they can take on a life of their own.

 

So in the final analysis, it comes down to how you assess the benefit against the risk.  For me the potential for abuse (risk) outweighs the benefit.  Others are certainly entitled to differing opinions.

Just for fun, I just looked up fake vaccine records, and found several websites that are selling them for $20.

This is why we need an official vaccine passport.

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13 minutes ago, morechances said:

So do you.

So, why do I have to feel unsafe? 

And, why do you have to feel inconvenienced?

This is a no win thing.

I agree.

 

I do not want to go somewhere with people who are not vaccinated.

 

But I want to go to place A.

You do not have a vaccination and you also want to go to place A.

Who gets priority?

One of us will not have their rights and beliefs.

 

Isn't the purpose of a vaccination to protect you and keep you safe?  If you have gotten the vaccine, whether you have papers or not to prove it, why are you worried about not being safe?   Help me understand the purpose of a vaccine.  Why do you, morechances, not want to go somewhere with people who are not vaccinated if you are?  

 

If others feel the same as morechances, can you chime in on why?  I find this fascinating.  Maybe I need to start a new thread on just this topic.  

 

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1 hour ago, bEwAbG said:

 

Communicable diseases are quite different than religion, which is protected under federal civil rights law.  As far as political and social beliefs, there are stories every few weeks about some owner or another making it known that people who do not believe as they do are welcome to take their business elsewhere.  Not illegal unless it is discriminatory under a state or federal public accommodation law.

 

People can believe all sorts of things that are not true.  Doesn't mean that businesses have to humor them.

True. But having the Government mandate a vaccination passport or requirement is different from a business 

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Just now, morechances said:

Just for fun, I just looked up fake vaccine records, and found several websites that are selling them for $20.

This is why we need an official vaccine passport.

Yes there is room for abuse in vaccination records, just as there is room for abuse in vaccination passports.  For example.....  without knowing the form vaccination passports will take, we can't be confident they can't themselves be counterfeited, also, don't you suppose a bogus vaccination record could be used to procure a vaccination passport?  Sure there's risk, but as I've said there's also risk that vaccination passports morph into something less benign.  Everyone will assess these competing risks for themselves and reach their own conclusion.

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My reason for not wanting to cruise with unvaccinated passengers and/or crew is simple, I do not want to have my cruise turned around due to an outbreak onboard, or worse yet, ending up like Diamond Princess.

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1 minute ago, farmermd said:

Isn't the purpose of a vaccination to protect you and keep you safe?  If you have gotten the vaccine, whether you have papers or not to prove it, why are you worried about not being safe?   Help me understand the purpose of a vaccine.  Why do you, morechances, not want to go somewhere with people who are not vaccinated if you are?  

 

If others feel the same as morechances, can you chime in on why?  I find this fascinating.  Maybe I need to start a new thread on just this topic.  

 

I am definitely interested in other options as well. Also find it fascinating.

 

Vaccines are not perfect. That is a fact. But they do lessen the symptoms of a virus. And they lessen the risk of spreading a virus or disease.

 

We all take risks every day.

 

Before you jump on me, this is hypothetical........

 

If you were about to board a plane and were told that you have a 40% chance of crashing, would you still get on?

 

Probably not.

 

But there is always a tiny risk of a plane going down. However, not high enough to be a risk for me.

 

So, even vaccinated, you do have a risk, but that risk is much lower if everyone else is also vaccinated.

 

Again, I do not have any more rights than anyone else.

BUT, I also do not have less rights than anyone else.

 

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1 minute ago, Ozzmund said:

My reason for not wanting to cruise with unvaccinated passengers and/or crew is simple, I do not want to have my cruise turned around due to an outbreak onboard, or worse yet, ending up like Diamond Princess.

This I can understand, so otherwise, you feel safe with the vaccine when around others without?   Morechances apparently doesn't feel safe anywhere around those who have not been vaccinated so I am just trying to understand the rationale.  

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5 minutes ago, Ozzmund said:

My reason for not wanting to cruise with unvaccinated passengers and/or crew is simple, I do not want to have my cruise turned around due to an outbreak onboard, or worse yet, ending up like Diamond Princess.

Thanks for grounding us.

I am voting for you to be the poster of the day!

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2 minutes ago, farmermd said:

This I can understand, so otherwise, you feel safe with the vaccine when around others without?   Morechances apparently doesn't feel safe anywhere around those who have not been vaccinated so I am just trying to understand the rationale.  

seems to me that you are trying to get others to validate your point, your point is your point and others have theirs, you just need more validation it seems

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3 minutes ago, morechances said:

I am definitely interested in other options as well. Also find it fascinating.

 

Vaccines are not perfect. That is a fact. But they do lessen the symptoms of a virus. And they lessen the risk of spreading a virus or disease.

 

We all take risks every day.

 

Before you jump on me, this is hypothetical........

 

If you were about to board a plane and were told that you have a 40% chance of crashing, would you still get on?

 

Probably not.

 

But there is always a tiny risk of a plane going down. However, not high enough to be a risk for me.

 

So, even vaccinated, you do have a risk, but that risk is much lower if everyone else is also vaccinated.

 

Again, I do not have any more rights than anyone else.

BUT, I also do not have less rights than anyone else.

 

So after 1 year, about 10% of the US population has tested positive for the virus.  Less than .2% of the population has died from the virus.  Based on the information I have read, you still have about a 10% chance of getting the virus after receiving the vaccine and a very small chance of dying from the vaccines.  So the way I see it, the odds are roughly the same whether you get the vaccine or not.  Your claim is the risk is "much lower" if everyone is vaccinated.  Can you show me this data?  So I'm still trying to understand how you feel unsafe in a setting where you are vaccinated and others are not.

 

I was born and raised a farmer so risk taking is in my blood.  Every spring we put a crop in the ground not knowing whether we will have anything to harvest in the fall.  40%?  Yeah I would probably get on the plane - esp if it was taking me to a cruise ship where masks, distancing and vaccines were not required!

 

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6 minutes ago, KWW88 said:

seems to me that you are trying to get others to validate your point, your point is your point and others have theirs, you just need more validation it seems

Actually, in terms of # of posts, in the last 8 hours starting with post #28 @morechanceshas 16 posts and @farmermd has 5 starting at post #68. It really does not matter and they are both entitled to debate their issues. 

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4 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Actually, in terms of # of posts, in the last 8 hours starting with post #28 @morechanceshas 16 posts and @farmermd has 5 starting at post #68. It really does not matter and they are both entitled to debate their issues. 

What can I say, I am bored, and find this entertaining. Is this #17?

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1 minute ago, morechances said:

What can I say, I am bored, and find this entertaining. Is this #17?

LOL...I know someone actually took the time go through all this and count your posts  🙄

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1 minute ago, morechances said:

What can I say, I am bored, and find this entertaining. Is this #17?

I was trying to add some humor to the day. Post as much as you like. I am getting ready to fire up the grill and pour a nice glass of wine for Easter dinner with just the two of us.

Cheers!

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Just now, KWW88 said:

LOL...I know someone actually took the time go through all this and count your posts  🙄

I thought it was funny and wanted to bring some laughter to this board. Some people here need a sense of humor. Cheers!

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1 minute ago, TrulyBlonde said:

I thought it was funny and wanted to bring some laughter to this board. Some people here need a sense of humor. Cheers!

Amen!  🍷

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Seriously....

I do not remember what the final count was as to how many people got THE VIRUS, and how many people sadly died on the Diamond Princess.

 

But it was certainly more than 0.2% death rate.

 

And, is one death too many? I would definitely think so.

 

The closer we are to each other, the higher the risk. And we all know that there are times on any cruise ship we are packed like sardines.

 

We all love our personal space. 

 

Sadly though, some people are not able to respect that space. Not sure why.

 

So, the risk is there.

 

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6 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

I was trying to add some humor to the day. Post as much as you like. I am getting ready to fire up the grill and pour a nice glass of wine for Easter dinner with just the two of us.

Cheers!

It's a beautiful day in CO.  Got me some ribs on the smoker.  Will likely fix a G&T in a little bit🙂

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1 minute ago, morechances said:

By the way, definitely like your comment about taking that flight. 

That was a great response!

Well as trulyblonde said - we all need a sense of humor.  some people get me, others don't .

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3 minutes ago, farmermd said:

Well as trulyblonde said - we all need a sense of humor.  some people get me, others don't .

When can we start a thread about putting chips in our bodies vs passports? 🤣 

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