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NCL Counters CDC new phase with it's own plan. Really bold move.


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21 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

They tried that in Texas when the Governor cut back the mask rules. They found a lot of private companies didn't care. To get in the door they required people to wear mask


The governor dropped the state-ordered mask mandate.  Private businesses still have signs posted “requiring” customers to wear masks while in their establishments.  However, I have not witnessed any local non-mask-wearing customer being asked to leave the premises.  But then again, I do not live in a big city.  Maybe things operate differently in those municipalities.

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1 hour ago, zdcatc12 said:

This did not come out today. That was the guidance from last week.

Yes it did.  Read the article, it references today's NCL letter.

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2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

FWIW, there's a difference between having a requirement and enforcing one. I was on a ferry 2 weeks ago in Florida and there was a requirement to wear a mask, but most people weren't wearing one and I never saw or heard a crewmember enforce it, despite the fact that they made several announcements over the speaker system. Sooooo... yeah...

 

Yeah, the cruise lines will probably enforce the masks like they enforce the deck chair saving prohibition that spawned our beloved chair hogs.

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2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

So face coverings not required when:

1. In your own cabin

2. Eating and drinking

3. Outdoors

 

I don't know about you, but that accounts for about 99% of my time on board, so no masks it is! LOL

 

Actively drinking accounts for 99% of my time on board, so yeah, no masks. Salute! 🍻

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9 hours ago, knitlady037 said:

I have a cruise booked with my 18 year old granddaughter as one of the passengers. She is highly allergic to the vaccine. I wonder how that will be handled?

Probably no exceptions. Many can't get the vaccine for those reasons, plus many don't want an emergency, experimental vaccine. Many will be locked out of most of society if they don't take the vaccine, along with the vaccine passport.

 

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5 hours ago, giustot said:

Even in the unlikely event the NCL request is approved, no one has yet mentioned that the Florida governor has signed an executive order prohibiting any businesses in Florida from requiring proof of vaccination. This idea of requiring vaccinations to cruise still has to play out. It's not as simple as, "a private business can do whatever it wants." Businesses have to obey the law.

 

Tom.

The Florida governor is desperate to get cruising started again, so I would expect he would make an exception in this case.

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1 hour ago, giustot said:

I don’t think that is true. Private companies must obey the laws where they operate. 
 

The Florida governor’s order specifically bans private businesses from requiring proof of vaccinations. I’m not saying I agree. But that’s what it says. 

NCLH is not a Florida business although it has its corporate operations headquarters in Florida. NCLH is incorporated in Bermuda. All of its ships but Pride of America are flagged in foreign countries. The commerce clause of the Constitution gives the federal government sole power over foreign commerce and interstate commerce and all NCLH ships but POA engage in foreign or interstate commerce. The commerce clause why the federal government has authority, exercised by the CDC, over health and safety matters on NCLH ships, rather than the state.

 

As a result I doubt whether Florida could apply this executive order to NCLH ships, or the ships of any other major cruise line, all of which are incorporated in foreign countries and fly flags of convenience on their ships.

 

Then there's the irony of what would happen if somehow Florida tried to apply the order. The governor and other Florida politicians have been screaming at the CDC to allow cruising to resume. Let's say the CDC approves NCL's application, which includes the vaccination mandate, allowing cruises the resume. How would it look if the state then tried to disallow the vaccination mandate thereby preventing cruising from resuming? Ever hear of the old saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

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4 hours ago, mpk218 said:

It is owned and operated by Miami Dade county in partnership with the city of Miami .

Not to mention the dozens of contractors that work the shore side . All in all 350,000 jobs are attached to that chunk of concrete ;

If the governor believes that a vaccination requirement will get the ships sailing sooner, I believe it is unlikely he would try to enforce his executive order and delay those 350K from returning to work.

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15 minutes ago, bratts2go said:

The Florida governor is desperate to get cruising started again, so I would expect he would make an exception in this case.

I doubt it, he and his ilk are more interested in culture wars than any sort of governance.  

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3 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

The federal government will not mandate the use of vaccine passports for travelers or businesses post-pandemic, President Biden's chief medical adviser, Dr. Anthony Fauci, told the Politico Dispatch podcast Monday.

 

Looks like cruise lines can make there own rules on vaccination requirements? If so, I bet the cruise lines drop it like its hot.

Note the words "post-pandemic" in the above statement.

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Face coverings are currently required for guests while indoors except for in their own accommodations and while eating and drinking in restaurants, bars and lounges or outdoors when physical distancing is not possible.

 

glad they left that exception; that account for about 95% of my time on board. Don’t want to wear a mask? Better keep drinking! 
I’m glad this letter was sent to the cdc though. It officially put the ball square in their court. Here’s what we want, here’s exactly what we’re doing. Good on NCL. 
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Laszlo said:

They tried that in Texas when the Governor cut back the mask rules. They found a lot of private companies didn't care. To get in the door they required people to wear mask


plus I just read yesterday that Methodist hospital in Houston was requiring all employees to receive CoVid vaccine.  
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/houston-hospital-covid-19-vaccine-fire-staff-employees-refuse-texas-2021-4

 

 

Edited by BSocial
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14 minutes ago, njhorseman said:The commerce clause why the federal government has authority, exercised by the CDC, over health and safety matters on NCLH ships, rather than the state.

I fully agree. Federal law trumps state law. But we do not yet have a federal law that requires Americans to show proof of vaccinations. 
 

I wouldn’t be so sure Governor DeSantis will cave on this. He has been very clear that he doesn’t want to creat a second class of citizens who are not vaccinated. 
 

I support proof of vaccinations, but my point is it is not as simple to do as most people think it is. 

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3 minutes ago, BSocial said:


plus I just read yesterday that Methodist hospital in Houston was requiring all employees to receive CoVid vaccine to remain employed.  

That doesn’t mean it’s legal just because a hospital wants it. Such a requirement would be subject to challenge in the courts. 

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I'm watching the Phillies game and many people aren't wearing masks- they aren't enforcing it.

It is tied 0-0 in the 4th in case anyone was wondering and the pitching has been excellent.

 

How are they going to enforce on a cruise ship, many of the staff simply won't care. Also, they might not want to go near someone without a mask. 

 

Also, people are going to be drunk and maybe forget where their mask is- not kidding.

 

Also, we don't know how long the vaccines are good for- so you could always have passengers on board who aren't as immune. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pbenjamin said:

Yes it did.  Read the article, it references today's NCL letter.

If it helps- the very first sentence of the article: 

 

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued long-awaited technical guidance for cruise lines on Friday"

 

To further explain: The article was written and published today, explaining the guidance that the CDC released on Friday of last week. The article then goes on to talk about the letter that NCL submitted to the CDC in response to the guidelines they released last week. Not today. It's entirely too early for the CDC to respond to the letter already. We won't hear anything earlier than tomorrow and most likely it'll be closer to mid week at the earliest. 

 

My personal opinion- the CDC is not going to require vaccines for travel as it's a violation of people's rights, since many people are required to travel for business, family emergencies, other other important matters outside of leisure and vacation. There's no way the CDC is going to push for a mandate for people to be vaccinated to travel. They also are not going to force cruise lines to require something like that and take that decision away from them, since it will impact their business on some level.  However, cruise lines and tourism destinations are well within their rights to require vaccines to sail, as that is for pleasure/leisure and it's a person's choice if they want to get vaccinated and travel now, or wait until the pandemic is over. 

 

That being said, the CDC is much more likely to approve sailing if the cruise lines require vaccinations and the other stipulations detailed in the letter. I have an extremely positive feeling about this.

Edited by Cyn874
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, iamaqt2 said:

CDC has issued new guidance today to the cruise lines, and vaccines will not be mandatory.  This is very disappointing IMO, and I hope the cruise lines will still require them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/05/business/cruise-lines-guidance.html

 

1 hour ago, pbenjamin said:

Yes it did.  Read the article, it references today's NCL letter.

The CDC did not issue new guidance today, it was last week and even states as such in the above referenced article in the first paragraph: 

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued long-awaited technical guidance for cruise lines on Friday, bringing them one step closer to sailing again in United States waters.

 

I never said that the letter didn't come out today, I was referring to the CDC guidance that came out last week, but the above poster stated came out today.

Edited by zdcatc12
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9 hours ago, molly361 said:

If everyone will be fully vaccinated I wonder if face masks will be required?

This will be interesting.    The CDC's own website says this (see link for full text).    

What You Can Start to Do

If you’ve been fully vaccinated:

  • You can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

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1 hour ago, BSocial said:


plus I just read yesterday that Methodist hospital in Houston was requiring all employees to receive CoVid vaccine.  
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/houston-hospital-covid-19-vaccine-fire-staff-employees-refuse-texas-2021-4

 

 

 

1 hour ago, giustot said:

That doesn’t mean it’s legal just because a hospital wants it. Such a requirement would be subject to challenge in the courts. 

With the vaccines only having emergency use authorization, not full approval, I think the hospital is on very shaky legal ground requiring every employee to be vaccinated. On the other hand after full approval is granted it's likely to be within the hospital's rights. For example it's rather common for hospitals to require their employees to be vaccinated for influenza.

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1 hour ago, HowardK said:

I'm watching the Phillies game and many people aren't wearing masks- they aren't enforcing it.

It is tied 0-0 in the 4th in case anyone was wondering and the pitching has been excellent.

Let's be fair, any time my man Jacob deGrom toes the rubber the pitching is excellent.  Oh yeah, he can handle a bat too in case you didn't notice.  17 innings, 0 runs, 25k's and 3 walks in his last 3 opening day starts (they're calling this an opening day start for him since it's the Mets' first game of the season)

 

Back to cruising discussion...

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1 hour ago, giustot said:

I fully agree. Federal law trumps state law. But we do not yet have a federal law that requires Americans to show proof of vaccinations. 
 

I wouldn’t be so sure Governor DeSantis will cave on this. He has been very clear that he doesn’t want to creat a second class of citizens who are not vaccinated. 
 

I support proof of vaccinations, but my point is it is not as simple to do as most people think it is. 

I don't think a federal law or regulation is required. Under the Conditional Sailing Order each cruise line has to submit its own plans to the CDC for approval and those plans could differ in any number of respects including a vaccination mandate. If the CDC approves the NCL plan that includes a vaccination requirement then the federal government has given its approval to that specific health measure, which I believe would be sufficient to overrule any state opposition.

One other note with regard to the commerce clause. I understand the courts have generally held that even if the federal government has not acted to regulate some aspect of foreign or interstate commerce the states are still not permitted to jump into the vacuum and assert their own control. So, even the absence of a federal vaccination requirement for cruising does not permit the states to say whether vaccination may or may not be required.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, giustot said:

I don’t think that is true. Private companies must obey the laws where they operate. 
 

The Florida governor’s order specifically bans private businesses from requiring proof of vaccinations. I’m not saying I agree. But that’s what it says. 

Here's what you are missing. When the federal government intentionally imposes a comprehensive regime for regulating a properly exercised governmental function, (such as international travel at airports and sea ports) then the federal regulatory regime completely preempts state law. You seem to suggest that the federal government must have a federal law in direct conflict with the state law or otherwise the state law stands, but that's not true. International travel is completely preempted by federal law and the states can not introduce any law that interferes with the federal regulatory regime in that area. Example: The federal government has comprehensive plan for entry/exit from the United States via passport or otherwise. Florida can not interfere with that exercise by prohibiting "vaccine passports"-which do not exist any way.

Edited by Stallion
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