Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[Jeremiah1212]

5 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Ok, so they can't mandate vaccines?

 

Here's the CDC's second phase:

 

• Increasing from weekly to daily the reporting frequency of COVID-19 cases and illnesses.
• Implementing routine testing of all crew based on each ship’s color status.
• Updating the color-coding system used to classify ships’ status with respect to COVID-19.
• Decreasing the time needed for a “red” ship to become “green” from 28 to 14 days based on the availability of onboard testing, routine screening testing protocols, and daily reporting.
• Creating planning materials for agreements that port authorities and local health authorities must approve to ensure cruise lines have the necessary infrastructure in place to manage an outbreak of COVID-19 on their ships to include healthcare capacity and housing to isolate infected people and quarantine those who are exposed.
• Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel.

That last line is important.  If the CDC can't mandate vaccines, why do they require a plan and timeline for the crew and port personnel to be vaccinated?  Sounds like they're mandating to me.

 

That's their way of foreshadowing that once the vaccine comes out of EUA status, they should probably start planning now rather than waiting. That timeline could also be a year+ from now and the plan could be something such as purchasing vaccines directly from manufacturers and providing vaccines onboard when that becomes an option. Or the vaccine plan could be crew is required to get vaccinated at home. Who knows. But they want a plan in place. 

[K.T.B.]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Because the CDC recommended that all crew be vaccinated when they become eligible. Not a mandate but an element that will assist in the restart.  Nothing to do with mandating vaccines for cruise passengers.  
 

I’m glad to see you actually went back to read the technical instructions. 

 

Nothing in there about "when they become eligible".  It pointedly says, "Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel."  They want the cruise lines to have their personnel vaccinated.  That's a mandate, not a recommendation, not a suggestion. 

[markeb]

26 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Nothing in there about "when they become eligible".  It pointedly says, "Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel."  They want the cruise lines to have their personnel vaccinated.  That's a mandate, not a recommendation, not a suggestion. 

 

No. That's not even close to a mandate. You can find mandates occasionally in government policy. There's a list of vaccinations that are required for immigration to the US; that's a mandate. The mandate is have a plan. As others have stated, a plan could include offer vaccinations voluntarily; monitor vaccine status of employees; review and update collective bargaining agreements for shore side personnel, etc. The only element that I saw that I'd take as a required element would be to have a vaccine coordinator at the corporate level.

 

The CDC, other than at ports of entry, and really only for people applying for immigration status, does not have the authority to mandate vaccines, whether under an EUA or not. That largely falls under police powers, that are reserved to the states. There's a great and short Congressional Research Service paper from I think 2018, really looking at measles vaccines. One of their key points is that other than for members of the military, and the immigration examples, Congress has not passed legislation giving any agency of the federal government the ability to mandate vaccination.

 

[harkinmr]

38 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Nothing in there about "when they become eligible".  It pointedly says, "Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel."  They want the cruise lines to have their personnel vaccinated.  That's a mandate, not a recommendation, not a suggestion. 

Here's the quote and the link to the CDC statement made the same day as the technical instructions were released.  I am done with this semantics game with you.  A "plan" is a "plan" is a "plan".  They are recommending that port personnel, passengers and crew get a vaccine.  They want to know how the cruise lines will do that if a vaccinate component for crew is incorporated.

 

COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0402-conditional-sail-orders.html

[K.T.B.]

39 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Here's the quote and the link to the CDC statement made the same day as the technical instructions were released.  I am done with this semantics game with you.  A "plan" is a "plan" is a "plan".  They are recommending that port personnel, passengers and crew get a vaccine.  They want to know how the cruise lines will do that if a vaccinate component for crew is incorporated.

 

COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0402-conditional-sail-orders.html

 

The CDC needs to TELL the cruise line under no uncertain terms that this needs to be done and will be done.  Period.  Meanwhile, Frank Del Rio awaits the CDC's response to NCL's letter in which they outline their ideas (one of which you highlighted...).

 

CDC took it upon themselves to stop cruising, which, at the time, was the right thing to do.  Now they need to actually DO something and not just say, "well,  maybe you guys need to do this, what do you guys suggest?"  And then ignore the suggestions they've had for nearly a month.  They had the cajones to stop cruising for health & safety, now they need to have the cajones to regulate the health needs of cruising.

 

I am NOT going to have my mind changed on this.

[harkinmr]

9 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

The CDC needs to TELL the cruise line under no uncertain terms that this needs to be done and will be done.  Period.  Meanwhile, Frank Del Rio awaits the CDC's response to NCL's letter in which they outline their ideas (one of which you highlighted...).

 

CDC took it upon themselves to stop cruising, which, at the time, was the right thing to do.  Now they need to actually DO something and not just say, "well,  maybe you guys need to do this, what do you guys suggest?"  And then ignore the suggestions they've had for nearly a month.  They had the cajones to stop cruising for health & safety, now they need to have the cajones to regulate the health needs of cruising.

 

I am NOT going to have my mind changed on this.

Highlighted language: No Kidding! 

 

Makes one wonder why you keep asking the same questions over and over and myself and others have answered your questions over and over again.  Despite those answers you circle back and make the same assertions, and we respond to them disagreeing with you and giving you logical reasons why we think you are wrong, but to no avail.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

If you don't want answers, or only want answers you agree with, then you need to find an echo chamber. It's not going to be here. I am bored and frustrated at this point.  Done.  

Edited April 26, 2021 by harkinmr

[K.T.B.]

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

 I am bored and frustrated at this point.  Done.  

 

Bye.  Enjoy your frustration.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

The CDC needs to TELL the cruise line under no uncertain terms that this needs to be done and will be done.  Period.  Meanwhile, Frank Del Rio awaits the CDC's response to NCL's letter in which they outline their ideas (one of which you highlighted...).

 

CDC took it upon themselves to stop cruising, which, at the time, was the right thing to do.  Now they need to actually DO something and not just say, "well,  maybe you guys need to do this, what do you guys suggest?"  And then ignore the suggestions they've had for nearly a month.  They had the cajones to stop cruising for health & safety, now they need to have the cajones to regulate the health needs of cruising.

 

I am NOT going to have my mind changed on this.

They have told the cruise lines what needed to be done:

 

1. Get ships approved to exchange crew through the US - Completed for several ships

2. Get agreements in place with ports to deal with potential Covid cases

3. Submit plans for test cruises for approval

4. Demonstrate protocols by successfully conducting test cruises

5. Start up cruises with passengers utilizing approved and demonstrated protocols.

 

Unfortunately the cruise lines stopped at step 1 and then for not all of their ships.

[harkinmr]

19 minutes ago, nocl said:

They have told the cruise lines what needed to be done:

 

1. Get ships approved to exchange crew through the US - Completed for several ships

2. Get agreements in place with ports to deal with potential Covid cases

3. Submit plans for test cruises for approval

4. Demonstrate protocols by successfully conducting test cruises

5. Start up cruises with passengers utilizing approved and demonstrated protocols.

 

Unfortunately the cruise lines stopped at step 1 and then for not all of their ships.

I hate to tell you, but you are wasting your time with this one.  He has asked varying versions of the same question numerous times and received responses each time.  He does not like, appreciate or understand the responses.  He is wedded to his perspective, and, as he has said, no one is going to change his mind.  

[K.T.B.]

27 minutes ago, nocl said:

They have told the cruise lines what needed to be done:

 

1. Get ships approved to exchange crew through the US - Completed for several ships

2. Get agreements in place with ports to deal with potential Covid cases

3. Submit plans for test cruises for approval

4. Demonstrate protocols by successfully conducting test cruises

5. Start up cruises with passengers utilizing approved and demonstrated protocols.

 

Unfortunately the cruise lines stopped at step 1 and then for not all of their ships.

 

Incorrect.  NCL has done so, and I think others have as well, not sure and I need to research, but there's been only radio silence.  I've mentioned this numerous times.  As for test cruises, Celebrity is sort of doing this out of St. Maarten, so we shall see.  And there have been dozens of cruises in Europe that have sailed pre-vaccine with an extreme amount of success, proving it can be done.  

 

EDIT TO ADD: LINK to the CDC ignoring of a proposal.

 

SECOND EDIT: Cruise lines proposal offered back in October, pre-vaccine, also ignored.  LINK

Edited April 26, 2021 by K.T.B.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Incorrect.  NCL has done so, and I think others have as well, not sure and I need to research, but there's been only radio silence.  I've mentioned this numerous times.  As for test cruises, Celebrity is sort of doing this out of St. Maarten, so we shall see.  And there have been dozens of cruises in Europe that have sailed pre-vaccine with an extreme amount of success, proving it can be done.  

 

EDIT TO ADD: LINK to the CDC ignoring of a proposal.

 

SECOND EDIT: Cruise lines proposal offered back in October, pre-vaccine, also ignored.  LINK

NCL has not done so.  NCL has not negotiated the agreements.,  They have not submitted their plans for the test cruises.

 

What the CLIA sent last fall was the safe sail report, and asked for the CSO to be dropped.  Nothing in line with what the CDC listed that the cruise lines needed to accomplish.  

 

What NCL did was to send a letter with an outline of a proposal and ask to be dropped from the CSO.  In other words they totally ignored the requirements in the CSO and tried to bypass them by submitting what was the safe sail report in outline form.  But they have not put the agreements with the port in place.  They have not submitted plans for approval for the test voyages.

 

Basically the cruise lines have been ignoring the requirements in the CSO hoping to lobby their way out of them.

 

The Caribbean cruises will not matter to the CDC because nothing from those cruises will be reported to the CDC including but not limited to protocols and any health information because they are outside of the US.  So unless the cruise lines invite the CDC to monitor those cruises and report health information to them they will not have an impact.

 

What NCL did was the equivalent of a pharmaceutical company sending a letter to the FDA saying that here is how we are going to test our new drug.  Based on this letter we would like to be able to market it in the US without formal FDA review and approval.  

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by nocl

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

The Caribbean cruises will not matter to the CDC because nothing from those cruises will be reported to the CDC including but not limited to protocols and any health information because they are outside of the US.  So unless the cruise lines invite the CDC to monitor those cruises and report health information to them they will not have an impact.

What a great idea! Since Celebrity appears to be the only cruise line with start-up cruises in the Caribbean that are not allowing B2B cruises, maybe that's what they're planning to do. I definitely makes sense and avoids the expense of performing Phase 3 "no revenue" test cruises.

[nocl]

36 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

What a great idea! Since Celebrity appears to be the only cruise line with start-up cruises in the Caribbean that are not allowing B2B cruises, maybe that's what they're planning to do. I definitely makes sense and avoids the expense of performing Phase 3 "no revenue" test cruises.

I would be surprised if Celebrity were to even send health data to the CDC let alone their protocols for these cruises.  Not much good without the port agreements as well.

[Ken the cruiser]

26 minutes ago, nocl said:

I would be surprised if Celebrity were to even send health data to the CDC let alone their protocols for these cruises.  Not much good without the port agreements as well.

OTOH, it's only late April and a lot can be accomplished to gain favor with the CDC before that first Millennium sailing in early June. Just because it's not making news, doesn't mean the folks at Celebrity aren't working hard to come to an equitable solution with the CDC to start sailing out of the US in July. At least that's my hope. 😁  

[K.T.B.]

35 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH, it's only late April and a lot can be accomplished to gain favor with the CDC before that first Millennium sailing in early June. Just because it's not making news, doesn't mean the folks at Celebrity aren't working hard to come to an equitable solution with the CDC to start sailing out of the US in July. At least that's my hope. 😁  

 

Ken gets it.

 

Anyway, interesting news here.  Carnival Corp contracts Bureau Veritas.  From the article:  The company will be supporting Carnival Corporation with health and safety services to facilitate the return to cruising, protecting passengers and crew.

[jagoffee]

10 hours ago, harkinmr said:

So you want the CDC to mandate vaccines, which they can’t do, and then think it’s “sneaky” to encourage the cruise lines to require them as an easier method for securing approval?  It’s not dishonest. It’s about negotiation. Happens all the time. 
So how do you propose that we get to vaccinated sailings?  Or are you against them?

 

The CSO (not a No Sail Order) does require that each line submit a plan for restart in accord with the framework.  What assumptions under the CSO are you saying are no longer valid?  Vaccines have been recognized as a prospective component of the CSO as per the CDC’s statement on the 12th. 

I was just referencing the fact that if the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory, then it is not ethical to make the vaccine mandatory using a indirect method.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing that the vaccines should be mandatory.  I am just referencing my opinion concerning the ethics.  IMO the CDC should request a change to the law if they feel it is necessary.

 

The NSO states a cruise ship operator (Captain and crew of each ship) needs to negotiate a plan.  This is not referring to a Cruise Line, but each individual ship.  Do I misunderstand the NSO?

or are you saying that the NSO as written is no longer valid and has been replaced?

 

 

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I was just referencing the fact that if the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory, then it is not ethical to make the vaccine mandatory using a indirect method.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing that the vaccines should be mandatory.  I am just referencing my opinion concerning the ethics.  IMO the CDC should request a change to the law if they feel it is necessary.

 

The NSO states a cruise ship operator (Captain and crew of each ship) needs to negotiate a plan.  This is not referring to a Cruise Line, but each individual ship.  Do I misunderstand the NSO?

or are you saying that the NSO as written is no longer valid and has been replaced?

 

 

The NSO morphed into the Framework for Conditional Sailing order (CSO) on October 30th of last year after there was pressure put on the CDC to lift the NSO.  The NSO was a blanket prohibition on sailing to be lifted “at some point” in the future. The CSO replaced it and was crafted to give cruise ships permission to sail as circumstances warranted and under protocols and regulations determined by the CDC and agreed to by the cruise lines.

[NMTraveller]

50 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH, it's only late April and a lot can be accomplished to gain favor with the CDC before that first Millennium sailing in early June. Just because it's not making news, doesn't mean the folks at Celebrity aren't working hard to come to an equitable solution with the CDC to start sailing out of the US in July. At least that's my hope. 😁  

While I applaud your optimism it will take roughly 90 days from the date that the CDC says go to get the ships sailing again.  Sure they might be able to get one or two sailing quicker but ...  Anyways we are looking at August if they say go in the next week or so.  I would be shocked if that happened.

 

My guess is they say go the first of July which would make cruising happen in October.  One month before the expiration in November.  This is all pure speculation.  I hope that your speculation is closer than mine.

[LGW59]

25 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I was just referencing the fact that if the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory, then it is not ethical to make the vaccine mandatory using a indirect method.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing that the vaccines should be mandatory.  I am just referencing my opinion concerning the ethics.  IMO the CDC should request a change to the law if they feel it is necessary.

 

The NSO states a cruise ship operator (Captain and crew of each ship) needs to negotiate a plan.  This is not referring to a Cruise Line, but each individual ship.  Do I misunderstand the NSO?

or are you saying that the NSO as written is no longer valid and has been replaced?

 

 

wrong post

Edited April 27, 2021 by LGW59
typo

[nocl]

56 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH, it's only late April and a lot can be accomplished to gain favor with the CDC before that first Millennium sailing in early June. Just because it's not making news, doesn't mean the folks at Celebrity aren't working hard to come to an equitable solution with the CDC to start sailing out of the US in July. At least that's my hope. 😁  

What has happened is that there are now technical group meetings between the cruise lines and the CDC to for the cruise lines to present their most critical concerns.

 

The only cruise line that appears to be doing anything independently of those meetings is MSC.

 

Things may change, but at this time there does not appear to be anything from NCL, RCL and CCL companies taking place outside of the technical group meetings. 

[jagoffee]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

stop, please

Why should I stop? I was just answering a question that was directed to me.  

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I was just referencing the fact that if the CDC is not allowed to make this vaccine mandatory, then it is not ethical to make the vaccine mandatory using a indirect method.  I am neither agreeing or disagreeing that the vaccines should be mandatory.  I am just referencing my opinion concerning the ethics.  IMO the CDC should request a change to the law if they feel it is necessary.

 

The NSO states a cruise ship operator (Captain and crew of each ship) needs to negotiate a plan.  This is not referring to a Cruise Line, but each individual ship.  Do I misunderstand the NSO?

or are you saying that the NSO as written is no longer valid and has been replaced?

 

 

The NSO - No sail Order was replaced by the Conditional Sail Order the CSO. Though portions of the NSO were included by reference in the CSO.

 

Each ship must have a plan.  Many portions can be the same.  Ships of the same class can have very similar plans.  But each ship has different layouts, they have different staffing, etc.  As a result the details of plans giving locations, responsibilities, personnel involved will need to reflect the specifics of that particular ship.  A plan for the Infinity for example would be different then the one for the Edge.  The basic outline would be the same but there would need to be adjustments for each ship.  For example dining room names, capacity and scheduling. Theater capacity.  Lounge capacity, quarantine room numbers and locations, personnel needed for enforcement of rules, lots of things vary by ship.

Edited April 27, 2021 by nocl

[jagoffee]

1 minute ago, nocl said:

The NSO - No sail Order was replaced by the Conditional Sail Order the CSO. Though portions of the NSO were included by reference in the CSO.

 

Each ship must have a plan.  Many portions can be the same.  Ships of the same class can have very similar plans.  But each ship has different layouts, they have different staffing, etc.  As a result the details of plans giving locations, responsibilities, personnel involved will need to reflect the specifics of that particular ship.  A plan for the Infinity for example would be different then the one for the Edge.  The basic outline would be the same but there would need to be adjustments for each ship.  For example dining room names, capacity and scheduling. Theater capacity.  Lounge capacity, quarantine room numbers and locations, personnel needed for enforcement of rules, lots of things very by ship.

Thank you for the detailed explanation.  

[K.T.B.]

Going to post this here, even though I posted it elsewhere.  These new guidelines from the CDC, IMO, pretty much shoot down the need for the CSO, except for the possibility of test cruises and the definite need for passengers & crew to be vaccinated.  This list show cruises can operate within vaccination guidelines.

 

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, K.T.B. said:

Going to post this here, even though I posted it elsewhere.  These new guidelines from the CDC, IMO, pretty much shoot down the need for the CSO, except for the possibility of test cruises and the definite need for passengers & crew to be vaccinated.  This list show cruises can operate within vaccination guidelines.

 

 

I assume you did notice the still take protective measures such as wear masks, even if fully vaccinated indoors or outdoors at a crowded effect.