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Hundreds of sellers are offering false and stolen Covid-19 vaccine cards


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1 hour ago, 4774Papa said:

I would opine that someone that uses a forged vac card could be liable if they have the virus and spread it to others.  

Agree with this. Any paper/card based system is next to useless without the backup of a Gov verification system and threat of very hefty penalties for those who forge their papers - akin to forging a passport. For those crossing country borders, a formal stamp in passports is the min needed - again with the threat to verify at any stage.

 

Have no issue with anyone not wishing to take the vaccine, it's their personal choice, but they in turn need to accept this may quite reasonably restrict their ability to move between countries or get on cruise ships, at least while COVID remains a global pandemic. 

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1 hour ago, NMTraveller said:

What do you call the group of people who are against taking vaccines?

1)  There are your anti-vaxxers who do not take any kind of vaccine (usually they think it causes autism in kids).

2)  There are people who are not anti-vaxxers, but want a longer history of a vaccine's side effects.  Remember almost all vaccines take 5-10 years from start to finish.  All of the approved covid vaccines (at least with an EUA) had less than a year from start to finish.  It seems that many medical people who have not received their first dose are probably under this category.  I can't see too many medical people being in the first group.

 

What is ironic is that people who call these people idiots are viewed by these "idiots" as idiots.  Isn't it about how you assess risk?  As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, you are perfectly within your rights to make the choices which you deem best for you and your family.     

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9 minutes ago, deadzone1003 said:

1)  There are your anti-vaxxers who do not take any kind of vaccine (usually they think it causes autism in kids).

2)  There are people who are not anti-vaxxers, but want a longer history of a vaccine's side effects.  Remember almost all vaccines take 5-10 years from start to finish.  All of the approved covid vaccines (at least with an EUA) had less than a year from start to finish.  It seems that many medical people who have not received their first dose are probably under this category.  I can't see too many medical people being in the first group.

 

What is ironic is that people who call these people idiots are viewed by these "idiots" as idiots.  Isn't it about how you assess risk?  As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, you are perfectly within your rights to make the choices which you deem best for you and your family.     

Exactly and without the name calling and insults

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1 hour ago, KWW88 said:

Quite insulting, IMO.  There was a woman on here earlier who stated why she did not want her teenage kids to be vaccinated, she has made what she feels that as a mom, is the best decision for her family, certainly does not mean that she is an "idiot"!!  I have had the vax and very glad that I made that CHOICE, I also every year get a flu, shingles and pneumonia shot, by CHOICE.  I am not talking about the people who think Bill Gates and WHO are trying to inject them with a chip of some sort, but there are smart and rational people who have made their decision to not be vaccinated.  

For most of the public without medical history that indicates raised risk.

 

Idiot no, poor understanding of risk benefit yes, potentially misinformed yes

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1 hour ago, Beba-Beba said:

The discussion here peeked my interest.  My next cruise (God willing) is 1/30/22 out of Fl Lauderdale.  I just checked the New York State site to see if my 2 Pfizer shots that were administered at a joint FEMA & New York State location were listed.  To my surprise I discovered as of 3/26/21 my state has a new program, Excelsior Pass - https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-launch-excelsior-pass-help-fast-track-reopening-businesses-and

 

Excelsior Pass is a free, voluntary platform developed in partnership with IBM that uses a secure technology to confirm:

 

1-  a recent negative PCR test taken in the last 3 days

2-  negative Antigen test results in the last 6 hours

3-  Proof of being fully vaccinated 14 plus days since the final shot

 

It was developed to be used statewide when businesses reopen and for event venues such as theaters, stadiums, arenas, wedding receptions, etc.  I am wondering if this verification and pass would be acceptable for airlines, port authorities in the US and Celebrity?

 

(Excelsior Pass is a digital ecosystem that enables individuals to store digital proof of test results and/or vaccine status and businesses and venues to verify these items without accessing personal health data.)

 

I printed a copy of the pass that has the NYS logo, my name, DOB, and expiration date of 9/19/21.  I will print a new one then.  I must have photo ID available when presenting the pass for verification. 

 

Mary


 

 

I've taken a quick read through the linked material and it looks like a great initiative. The only potential negative relates to the input of the information. Most of the still relatively small number of organizations willing to contribute results seem to be test oriented rather than vaccine providers. Hopefully more organizations will get on board, as the concept is sound.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Fouremco said:

There appears to be general agreement that fraudulent vaccination documents pose the risk of having unvaccinated adult passengers aboard. Beyond that, there is little apparent agreement whether or not Celebrity is capable of verifying the authenticity of these documents.

 

Personally, I have serious doubts. In the US alone, how many separate data bases hold information on vaccinated individuals? How many in Canada, the EU and the rest of the world? Put bluntly, I don't believe that Celebrity has or will have the capability of tapping all of these resources to verify vaccination documents proffered by passengers as proof. Additionally, Celebrity currently only requires that you provide your documents on the day of embarkation. I simply can't imagine how they will verify thousands of documents in a wide variety of formats and languages.

 

Instead, I suspect that Celebrity will treat the vaccination document in much the same pro forma manner as the Public Health Questionnaire with such questions as "Within the last 7 days, have you, or any person listed above, had any of the following symptoms: Fever, Chills, Cough, Runny Nose, Sore Throat or Shortness of breath?" 

 

I'm optimistic that there will be few individuals who will try to beat the system to cruise. In that regard, I'm quite possibly naive. However, I will be fully vaccinated and my medical risk minimal. As much as having all vaccinations verified sounds appealing, I believe that Celebrity also views the risk posed by a small number of possible frauds to be minimal.

Insurance companies, some employers and other organizations have to navigate through this issue every day.  For a cruise line to validate the vaccination information they would need the identifying information about the passenger, information about where they were vaccinated, and have a signed release authorizing the release of vaccination information.  The cruise line would then need to contact whoever gave the immunization to verify.  It would take resources, but could be done.  They really would not have to check everyone, just enough spot checks to send a clear message that they were checking the validity of the vaccination information.

 

Otherwise they could put the responsibility on the passenger and make them sign up with a service that is validating that information such as Clear is doing with the airlines.

Edited by nocl
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5 minutes ago, nocl said:

Insurance companies, some employers and other organizations have to navigate through this issue every day.  For a cruise line to validate the vaccination information they would need the identifying information about the passenger, information about where they were vaccinated, and have a signed release authorizing the release of vaccination information.  The cruise line would then need to contact whoever gave the immunization to verify.  It would take resources, but could be done.  They really would not have to check everyone, just enough spot checks to send a clear message that they were checking the validity of the vaccination information.

 

Otherwise they could put the responsibility on the passenger and make them sign up with a service that is validating that information such as Clear is doing with the airlines.

I agree, it could be done IF Celebrity was to require the information well in advance of the cruise. I suggested that a couple of days ago. Bear in mind that the insurance companies, employers and other organizations generally aren't working under time constraints, and they generally aren't verifying vaccination information from around the globe.

 

At the current time, Celebrity only requires that you provide your proof of vaccination at check in. Good luck to the harried terminal staff in St. Maarten this summer verifying any meaningful number of international spot checks on a Sunday.

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Posted (edited)

Not much difference than the other forged or stolen docs out there....DL, passports, birth certificates, etc.

 

It will always be so.  This is hardly a reason not to have some sort of covid vaccination record.

 

Our other shots, yellow fever certificate ,etc that are required for some countries is nothing more than a handwritten entry in our International Vaccination record.

 

It is early days.  No reason to get excited.  I have no doubt that this will get sorted out over time.

Edited by iancal
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1 hour ago, nocl said:

Insurance companies, some employers and other organizations have to navigate through this issue every day.  For a cruise line to validate the vaccination information they would need the identifying information about the passenger, information about where they were vaccinated, and have a signed release authorizing the release of vaccination information.  The cruise line would then need to contact whoever gave the immunization to verify.  It would take resources, but could be done.  They really would not have to check everyone, just enough spot checks to send a clear message that they were checking the validity of the vaccination information.

 

Otherwise they could put the responsibility on the passenger and make them sign up with a service that is validating that information such as Clear is doing with the airlines.

A few spot checks are all that will likely happen or are necessary.  Unless an outbreak could be traced to a person with fake ID there would not be an issue.  Verification of say 40 or 50 cruisers along with possible legal consequences if caught or disease caused should be sufficient.

Not many people would likely being tossed ashore in say Haiti or Russia. Or sued for damages.  Or possibly incarcerated.  Who knows what the penalties could be.

If you want to fake an ID, driver's licenses are available for under $400 and passports as cheap as $2000 depending on the country according to local CBP employees.

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1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I agree, it could be done IF Celebrity was to require the information well in advance of the cruise. I suggested that a couple of days ago. Bear in mind that the insurance companies, employers and other organizations generally aren't working under time constraints, and they generally aren't verifying vaccination information from around the globe.

 

At the current time, Celebrity only requires that you provide your proof of vaccination at check in. Good luck to the harried terminal staff in St. Maarten this summer verifying any meaningful number of international spot checks on a Sunday.

That indicates to me that they are just checking off a box, enough that if someone that is not vaccinated gets on board they can say it is not our problem, they showed us a form that said that they were vaccinated.

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2 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

1)  There are your anti-vaxxers who do not take any kind of vaccine (usually they think it causes autism in kids).

2)  There are people who are not anti-vaxxers, but want a longer history of a vaccine's side effects.  Remember almost all vaccines take 5-10 years from start to finish.  All of the approved covid vaccines (at least with an EUA) had less than a year from start to finish.  It seems that many medical people who have not received their first dose are probably under this category.  I can't see too many medical people being in the first group.

 

What is ironic is that people who call these people idiots are viewed by these "idiots" as idiots.  Isn't it about how you assess risk?  As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, you are perfectly within your rights to make the choices which you deem best for you and your family.     

 

I would not call these people idiots. Rather they are ignorant and in many cases willfully so.

 

It is willful ignorance to deny the data that proves no  causitive link between vaccinations and autism.

 

One has to be ignorant of how far medical science has advanced in the last few years to believe a process that took decades 100 years ago can not now be done in months.

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1 minute ago, nocl said:

That indicates to me that they are just checking off a box, enough that if someone that is not vaccinated gets on board they can say it is not our problem, they showed us a form that said that they were vaccinated.

That's my fear as well. 

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6 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

That's my fear as well. 

That is why I would prefer the CDC looking over their shoulders at their processes when they say that they are doing something.

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12 minutes ago, nocl said:

That indicates to me that they are just checking off a box, enough that if someone that is not vaccinated gets on board they can say it is not our problem, they showed us a form that said that they were vaccinated.

I feel as though the % of people boarding that present fake COVID-19 vaccine proof, will be in the low single digits.  With most having had the vaccine, and later this year and in 2022, probably the booster as well, my level of concern will be quite low.  Of course, I will still take precautions, but I will still board the ship...in April 2022.

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1 minute ago, nocl said:

That is why I would prefer the CDC looking over their shoulders at their processes when they say that they are doing something.

I couldn't agree more. Too many people here demonizing the CDC IMO.

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2 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I would not call these people idiots. Rather they are ignorant and in many cases willfully so.

 

It is willful ignorance to deny the data that proves no  causitive link between vaccinations and autism.

 

One has to be ignorant of how far medical science has advanced in the last few years to believe a process that took decades 100 years ago can not now be done in months.

How do you explain medical people who wish to hold off taking the vaccine until there is more history?  They are probably thinking the vaccine is more of a danger (at this point) than the consequences of catching covid19.  I wouldn't call these people ignorant.  They are assessing risk as they see them.  Perhaps, in their situation, you may have the same view.  

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1 hour ago, deadzone1003 said:

How do you explain medical people who wish to hold off taking the vaccine until there is more history?  They are probably thinking the vaccine is more of a danger (at this point) than the consequences of catching covid19.  I wouldn't call these people ignorant.  They are assessing risk as they see them.  Perhaps, in their situation, you may have the same view.  

You are lumping all "medical people" into one group as if they are all of the same with the same expertise.  My understanding is that large percentage of the "medical people" not getting immunized are lower paid individuals including home health care workers, nursing home staff, etc.  The percentage of MDs and RNs holding off tend to be much lower.  Though there are some out there.

 

As my niece (an MD) said when they got the first vaccines available at her hospital that she had never seen doctors run that fast in the hospital before as they were trying to line up to make sure that they got immunized that day.

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10 hours ago, deadzone1003 said:

 They are probably thinking the vaccine is more of a danger (at this point) than the consequences of catching covid19.  I wouldn't call these people ignorant.  They are assessing risk as they see them.  Perhaps, in their situation, you may have the same view.  

 

Thats fine, they can have the view and act accordingly, however that doesn’t give them the right to lie and forge documents to get on a cruise ship.   They are also putting others at risk if they contract Covid through their actions. Apparently they are also forgetting that they could be infecting people in the ports they visit. Is that ignorant?   Probably.

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3 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

Thats fine, they can have the view and act accordingly, however that doesn’t give them the right to lie and forge documents to get on a cruise ship.   They are also putting others at risk if they contract Covid through their actions. Apparently they are also forgetting that they could be infecting people in the ports they visit. Is that ignorant?   Probably.

You are projecting.  I think of these people who are waiting for more history as people who are at the end of the queue which, at this stage, is still long and we may not even get there until June or July with J&J production problems.  Don't mix people who want a little more history in a vaccine with people who are of a very low moral character.

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On 4/9/2021 at 4:50 PM, NantahalaCruiser said:

I'm not that too concerned about catching COVID from an unvaccinated passenger; but I would be concerned about the cruise being interrupted due to an unvaccinated group coming down with COVID and causing the cruise to be terminated.

Same here!

 

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Posted (edited)

I am hesitant to get the vaccine because we do not know the long term effects and how long the immunity last.  This does not make me an idiot.  I have a cruise scheduled for November.  If Celebrity makes me get the vaccine to go on the cruise I will.  However, I will wait as along as possible.  I had Covid earlier this year, very minor symptoms.  I also do not see how the cruise line can verify if anyone received the vaccine or faked their papers.  I don't think in Texas there is any database for who received the shot.  

Edited by dallasdan
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, dallasdan said:

I am hesitant to get the vaccine because we do not know the long term effects and how long the immunity last.  This does not make me an idiot.  I have a cruise scheduled for November.  If Celebrity makes me get the vaccine to go on the cruise I will.  However, I will wait as along as possible.  I had Covid earlier this year, very minor symptoms.  I also do not see how the cruise line can verify if anyone received the vaccine or faked their papers.  I don't think in Texas there is any database for who received the shot.  

What potential long term effects are you concerned about?

 

In most cases side effects from vaccines show up in the first two months after vaccination. Events occurring outside of that window is extremely rare with any vaccine. We are well past that not only with the clinical trials, but also with large numbers of the vaccinated public.

 

 

Edited by nocl
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dallasdan said:

...  I don't think in Texas there is any database for who received the shot.  

 

The entity that administered your vaccination has to keep a record, for liability protection if nothing else. But also tracing for medical and billing purposes.

 

 

 

Edited by broberts
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