DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida

[MommaBear55]

5 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

They know the cause of death, but list Covid on the death certificate if you test positive. This is one reason why the numbers are flawed. 
 

Being Covid positive is NOT a death sentence. 

If you are live every day with any chronic illess, then get Covid and die, then, yes, Covid is #1 on the death certificate, because Covid is why you die today. (Nurse practitioner with 40 years hospital experience)

Edited April 17, 2021 by MommaBear55

[jean87510]

1 hour ago, mugtech said:

Except the unvaccinated could get covid 19 and then cause all kinds of changes and problems for the entire ship.  Could you imagine a ship with half the passengers not vaccinated?

You are assuming half the ship will have fake vaccine cards.  That was the initial discussion.  I find that highly unlikely.  And again, I am vaccinated so if these individuals want to risk spending thousands of dollars on a vacation that has a very negative view from the general public for covid transmission rather than just go to an AI or rent a house somewhere for their vacation, then its on them.  Do you truly believe a cruise especially with all of the rumored regulations to be enforced is so desirable that one would fake a vaccine card?  Id fake a vaccine card to stay in Aruba or Vanuatu long before going on a cruise to Nassau.

[CaroleSS]

3 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

If you are live every day with any chronic illess, then get Covid and die, then, yes, Covid is #1 on the death certificate, because Covid is why you die today. (Nurse practitioner with 40 years hospital experience)

My chronic condition is hypertension and high cholesterol. One day I have a heart attack. Is it my chronic condition that finally caught up with me or Covid? How can you be sure that the heart attack was caused by Covid or that I might have died anyway if Covid negative?

[MommaBear55]

2 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

My chronic condition is hypertension and high cholesterol. One day I have a heart attack. Is it my chronic condition that finally caught up with me or Covid? How can you be sure that the heart attack was caused by Covid or that I might have died anyway if Covid negative?

We can tell through years of experience. There are many ways of determining what finally causes a body to fail. Have there been done errors in documentation? Absolutely. But there is no way to explain away 600,000 deaths in the US in the excess if nirmal in the last 14 months other than Covid. 

[CaroleSS]

9 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

We can tell through years of experience. There are many ways of determining what finally causes a body to fail. Have there been done errors in documentation? Absolutely. But there is no way to explain away 600,000 deaths in the US in the excess if nirmal in the last 14 months other than Covid. 

I never said no one has died as a result of Covid, I just have to wonder about the "accounting".

 

This from the University of Pennsylvania.....

"By the year 2017, the United States was already suffering more excess deaths and more life years lost each year than those associated with the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020, according to research from demographers Samuel Preston of the University of Pennsylvania and Yana Vierboom of the Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research.

 

In 2017, the United States suffered an estimated 401,000 total excess deaths, those beyond the "normal" number of deaths expected to have occurred. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports 376,504 deaths related to COVID-19 in 2020.

"We do not want to diminish the tremendous losses due to COVID-19 in the U.S. and elsewhere," says Vierboom, a postdoctoral research scientist in Max Planck's Laboratory of Population Health. "It's just a helpful tool to put the U.S. mortality disadvantage into perspective.""

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by CaroleSS

[CaroleSS]

28 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

If you are live every day with any chronic illess, then get Covid and die, then, yes, Covid is #1 on the death certificate, because Covid is why you die today. (Nurse practitioner with 40 years hospital experience)

I might have recovered from Covid had I not had that pesky heart attack. How do you know?
 

If I live every day with a chronic illness, then one day stub my toe, then have a heart arrack......is a stubbed toe listed on the death certificate?

 

Yes, it is a stupid analogy, but I'm trying to make a point.

 

Sometimes when we say "they fell and broke their hip", we should be saying "they broke their hip and fell".

Edited April 17, 2021 by CaroleSS

[MommaBear55]

5 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

I might have recovered from Covid had I not had that pesky heart attack. How do you know?
 

If I live every day with a chronic illness, then one day stub my toe, then have a heart arrack......is a stubbed toe listed on the death certificate?

 

Yes, it is a stupid analogy, but I'm trying to make a point.

 

Sometimes when we say "they fell and broke their hip", we should be saying "they broke their hip and fell".

CaroleSS, there's no way I can impart 40 years of experience and 10 years of college to you. Please explain how there have been 600,000 deaths in excess of expected. 

[CaroleSS]

One of the most important factors when it comes to Covid-19 is preventing excess death. According to the CDC, 

“Estimates of excess deaths can provide information about the burden of mortality potentially related to the COVID-19 pandemic, including deaths that are directly or indirectly attributed to COVID-19. Excess deaths are typically defined as the difference between the observed numbers of deaths in specific time periods and expected numbers of deaths in the same time periods.”

Essentially, there is an average number of deaths every year due to a variety of causes that for the most part have remained constant through the years. This includes morbidities such as heart disease, which has long been the leading cause of death, and cancer, which has long plagued our existence. For Covid-19 to be a serious cause of alarm, it would need to significantly increase the number of average deaths. 

However, according to the study,

“These data analyses suggest that in contrast to most people’s assumptions, the number of deaths by COVID-19 is not alarming. In fact, it has relatively no effect on deaths in the United States.”

Total deaths in the United States show no significant change and even mirror past trends of seasonal illness. 

 

 

Supporting link

https://www.aier.org/article/new-study-highlights-serious-accounting-error-regarding-covid-deaths/

[CaroleSS]

1 minute ago, MommaBear55 said:

CaroleSS, there's no way I can impart 40 years of experience and 10 years of college to you. Please explain how there have been 600,000 deaths in excess of expected. 

No, but my family is steeped in medicine, two physicians, one nurse and one PA. Me, I have a masters degree in statistics. I have learned to critically examine the numbers rather than to blindly skim the surface.

[not-enough-cruising]

44 minutes ago, jean87510 said:

In my neck of the woods in NJ we have been handwriting them in at mega centers at 2-3000 a day.  It is doable.  

Oh for sure doable, just not necessary, and certainly not an indicator of sloppy work. 

I am curious; are your mega centers in NJ “drive thru” or does everyone come into a structure and sit down?

[Shorewalk Holmes]

54 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

One of the most important factors when it comes to Covid-19 is preventing excess death.

 

This first part of my post is harsh, but I'm going to get to something you may like better. I respect your opinions (and you have been nice to my posts  🙂).

 

You cite the AIER, but the AIER is a political advocacy organization.  In another post, I analyzed in some detail one of their articles, showing how they deceptively use linking.  They publish some of the least professional articles I've ever seen, and I've done and published research and statistics for over 40 years. 

 

Neither the article I analyzed at nor the one you cited were peer reviewed, because reviewers would have caught the deceptions.

 

In fact, the article you cite was 'published' in a student newsletter, then pulled by Johns Hopkins for spreading misinformation. 

 

https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19

 

Even AIER couldn't stomach it without this disclaimer:

 

"AIER is not endorsing the study as is without further study, but we are interested in the argument being examined and discussed."

 

Having said all that, I'm not saying that you're wrong.  For all I know, you could be right.

 

I'm not a medical doctor or epidemiologist.  I'm saying:  Show me some peer reviewed studies in refereed journals that prove your points.  Scientists are very protective of their reputations, and won't allow deception or poor argumentation if they find it during peer review.

 

Political shops don't care much about that.

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Shorewalk Holmes

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, MommaBear55 said:

CaroleSS, there's no way I can impart 40 years of experience and 10 years of college to you. Please explain how there have been 600,000 deaths in excess of expected. 

You're wasting your time.  Some people just refuse to understand/accept that fact.

[jean87510]

58 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Oh for sure doable, just not necessary, and certainly not an indicator of sloppy work. 

I am curious; are your mega centers in NJ “drive thru” or does everyone come into a structure and sit down?

the 2 big ones near me camden county college and rowan college at gloucester county were both stand in line.  They did have accommodations for wheelchairs and those unable to stand for long periods.  The NJ guard was helping with the one site.  My sister and my mother live in TX outside of Houston and told me about the drive throughs.  She said the lines were ridiculous.

[CaroleSS]

6 minutes ago, Shorewalk Holmes said:

 

This first part is harsh, but I'm going to get to something you may like better. I respect your opinions (and you have been nice to my posts  🙂).

 

You cite the AIER, but the AIER is a political advocacy organization. 
 

(clip)

Political shops don't care much about that.

 

 

 

I try to respect all opinions. Part of "science" is an intelligent DISCUSSION of all points; to examine them for validity and verify. I've tried to be mindful of other people's opinions (none of us is wrong.....our opinions are our own).....I've tried not to disrespect anyone.....but rather to point out alternative ideas which might cause them to think about why they have a certain opinion. (This tactic is quite annoying to DH as I will argue a point, even if I don't believe it to be true, just to be devil's advocate. 😕)

 

The link was from a specific organization, but I did find the same article on other sites. It is quite difficult, in today's world, to find any site which doesn't lean one way or another. As you mentioned, political sites don't care if what they are espousing is true or not, just that they get "viewership"; clicks; revenue. It is a sad reflection of our current society in that truth is inconsequential.

 

Slightly OT.....ok, VERY OT, today DH and I went shopping for new patio furniture. We each knew what we wanted, but I did not like what he wanted and he didn't like what I wanted....but we went shopping anyway. We ended up at a store where we found something that we could both agree upon, a little of what he wanted and a little of what I wanted. We compromised in that in addition, he got one piece that was exactly what he wanted and I got one piece as well. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we (particularly our "leaders") would do the same? Why does it always have to be "my way or the highway"?

[CaroleSS]

27 minutes ago, baldilocks said:

Here in GA, we just get a piece of paper for each shot taken. You are told to protect the information about your vaccination by doing a photo of the pages to your cell phone having the pages laminated.

 

 

If I might, please, please do NOT laminate your vaccination card!

 

It will make things difficult should boosters be necessary. Take a picture of it with your phone (so you always have it with you) and put the real one with your passport...that way you know where it is.

[Shorewalk Holmes]

2 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we (particularly our "leaders") would do the same? Why does it always have to be "my way or the highway"?

 

True that.

[Joebucks]

1 hour ago, MommaBear55 said:

If you are live every day with any chronic illess, then get Covid and die, then, yes, Covid is #1 on the death certificate, because Covid is why you die today. (Nurse practitioner with 40 years hospital experience)

 

While your experience certainly puts you better in the know than most people here and gives extra weight to you slapping down the presumed "science" argument, it's not always this black and white. At the end of the day, we are relying on tens of thousands of people to accurately depict every death, from infinite scenarios with infinite variables, from often old and/or unhealthy people how they died. Working with people, I've come to realize that there is a lot of room for error. Who here has ever had a doctor give them an incorrect diagnosis? Absolutely everyone ever, multiple times over. We've already seen plenty of instances where the deaths were counted incorrectly. Yet we shrug those off with "well it's only 1" and/or I can't speak to it. Exactly, we cannot speak to it other than this large, emotional, number.

 

Ignoring COVID ever existed, who is the most likely group to die the soonest? The same people currently dying from COVID? And furthermore, we expect this data to expertly correlate into why healthy people can't enjoy normal activities anymore. Even though that argument is more of an emotional one and at best a mass number vs real correlation. No matter what the true "definition of cause of death" may be, that doesn't override the theory of the argument. We often have the vaccine shoved down our throats from reasons like "remember polio?" Well polio didn't need to bring a +1 to the party.

[not-enough-cruising]

1 hour ago, jean87510 said:

the 2 big ones near me camden county college and rowan college at gloucester county were both stand in line.  They did have accommodations for wheelchairs and those unable to stand for long periods.  The NJ guard was helping with the one site.  My sister and my mother live in TX outside of Houston and told me about the drive throughs.  She said the lines were ridiculous.

Thanks, I find it fascinating the different approaches taken in different locales.

 

When this is all done, some college somewhere will be offering a class "Public Health Policies amidst Covid-19", I will sign up for the online version, it will be enlightening.

[Tippyton]

3 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

I might have recovered from Covid had I not had that pesky heart attack. How do you know?
 

If I live every day with a chronic illness, then one day stub my toe, then have a heart arrack......is a stubbed toe listed on the death certificate?

 

Yes, it is a stupid analogy, but I'm trying to make a point.

 

Sometimes when we say "they fell and broke their hip", we should be saying "they broke their hip and fell".

My mom broke her hip - first time in my life I heard (from the orthopedist) that breaking a hip and falling is actually far more common.

[yogimax]

3 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

 

Supporting link

https://www.aier.org/article/new-study-highlights-serious-accounting-error-regarding-covid-deaths/

The supporting link you cited has a definite political, not scientific, bias.  This is what leads to unscientific conspiracy theories.

[CaroleSS]

19 minutes ago, yogimax said:

The supporting link you cited has a definite political, not scientific, bias.  This is what leads to unscientific conspiracy theories.

And you think the CDC is any different?

[CaroleSS]

24 minutes ago, yogimax said:

The supporting link you cited has a definite political, not scientific, bias.  This is what leads to unscientific conspiracy theories.

The question remains, regardless of your politics, could it be possible that Covid deaths are over reported and "other" causes of deaths have been under reported?

[easyqueasy]

5 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

And you think the CDC is any different?

What- you saying bad things about the CDC?

[yogimax]

1 minute ago, CaroleSS said:

The question remains, regardless of your politics, could it be possible that Covid deaths are over reported and "other" causes of deaths have been under reported?

It is true that, in many cases, COVID deaths have been under reported but I doubt you will accept that fact.

 

In any case, why is this so very important to you?

[crazyank]

34 minutes ago, yogimax said:

The supporting link you cited has a definite political, not scientific, bias.  This is what leads to unscientific conspiracy theories.

Nope,  posting things like the supporting link is how information gets out when others (the CDC for example) would like to have it covered up.