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DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida


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1 hour ago, Pratique said:

As has been discussed on these forums, the CDC doesn't make the rules for sailing. CDC solicited public comments last year, maybe you had a chance to submit your own comments at that time? That would have been a good chance for you to speak your piece.

 

The cruise lines will present their plans to the CDC for approval or rejection. The issue appears to be that the cruise lines and the CDC are not seeing eye to eye on what it workable and acceptable. But at the end of the day the cruise lines will be the ones making the rules.

 

"The CDC doesn't make the rules for sailing," but the CDC solicited comments last year regarding the rules for sailing.  And they don't make the rules?  Are you serious?  See CDC website and timeline below.  Yikes.

 

Then, after that doozy, deflect to whether I provided input to the CDC as a prequalification for having any opinion?  Under your logic, why would anyone if the CDC in fact doesn't make the rules for sailing as you state?  That has zero to do with making comments on social media such as CruiseCritic. 

 

It also is severely naive, especially in todays historic DC cesspool establishment, to believe that letters to the CDC would have an impact.  The CDC takes it daily bread as broken by the Executive Branch and as buttered by the buttress of similarly aligned House and Senate members.

 

Here's today's cruise enthusiasts of such land-o-lakes ~

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24792-u-s-politicians-urge-cdc-to-keep-cruise-industry-closed.html

 

 

 

Framework for Conditional Sailing Order for Cruise

April 2, 2021 Update

On April 2, 2021, CDC released a new phase of the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (issued October 30, 2020) for cruise ships operating or seeking to operate in U.S. waters. CDC published technical instructions for cruise ship operators and for local health authorities outlining this phase of the Conditional Sailing Order.


October 30, 2020 Update

On October 30, 2020, CDC issued a Framework for Conditional Sailing Order. This Order is effective upon signature and was published in the Federal Register on November 4, 2020.

 

This Order shall remain in effect until the earliest of

  • The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
  • The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
  • November 1, 2021.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.

Previous No Sail Order for Cruise Ships

September 30, 2020 Update

On September 30, 2020, CDC extended the No Sail Order and Suspension of Further Embarkation; Third Modification and Extension of No Sail Order and Other Measures Related to Operations that was issued on July 16, 2020. The Order was effective upon signature and published in the Federal Register on October 5, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf  for the full requirements.


July 16, 2020 Update

On July 16, 2020, CDC extended the No Sail Order and Suspension of Further Embarkation; Notice of Modification and Extension and Other Measures Related to Operations signed by the CDC Director on April 9, 2020—subject to the modifications and additional stipulated conditions as set forth in this Order. The Order was effective upon signature and published in the Federal Registerexternal icon on July 21, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf  for the full requirements.


April 9, 2020 Update

On April 9, 2020, CDC renewed the No Sail Order and Other Measures Related to Operations Order signed by the CDC Director on March 14, 2020—subject to the modifications and additional stipulated conditions as set forth in this Order. The Order was published in the Federal Register and effective as of April 15, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.


March 14, 2020 Update

The CDC Director issued a No Sail Order for cruise ships effective March 14, 2020 due to the risk cruise ship travel introducing, transmitting, or spreading COVID-19. CDC commended the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA), the leading industry trade group, for their willingness to voluntarily suspend cruise ship operations from U.S. ports of call beginning on March 13, 2020 for the next thirty (30) days. The Order was published in the Federal Register.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.

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1 hour ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

With all due respect, this statement is antithetical of just about everything I believe.

 

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Thanks for bringing my signature quote to the thread

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2 hours ago, jaredhamburg said:

I find it dangerous to mandate a vaccine that is only approved for emergency use.  I am sorry for the loss of your mother.  I personally feel like doing what is "right" and "moral" should not be mandated.  Many people do not want to be vaccinated due to it not being fully approved and several examples of potential issues (pauses with the Astra Zeneca and J&J vaccines).

Mandated by whom?

A cruise line wanting to minimise illness and the potential for cruise disruption is perfectly in line requiring their customers be vaccinated.  It's for the benefit of them and their customers and offers the possibility of a cruise that is perfectly normal in every way.  People aren't required to vaccinate unless they want to partake in cruising. It's a personal decision/tradeoff.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

Thanks for bringing my signature quote to the thread

 

LOL, I know I got this originally from somewhere here on CruiseCritic.  Hope you didn't mind me borrowing it.  😀

 

CSL (writer and also a heavy influence lay person theologian) would be awestruck today.  Can you imagine reaction today to some of his best?

 

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Then again, as another member noted when CSL died related to JFK assassination, JFK's message wouldn't be very welcome in today's society.

 

ask.JPG.7a29fadeacfcc9dddb46df383ace781d.JPG

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Personally I have a hard time seeing the governor of Florida blocking cruises from happening. Right now this issue is more political than practical since we aren't close to cruises resuming in the USA. If fully vaccinated ships are what is required to get the industry on it's feet again in Florida I have to believe he will allow it. He has several outs to save face politically between maritime/international considerations and the CDC.

 

I don't follow politics super closely but DeSantis strikes me as someone with his eye on a future presidential bid. I think being the first governor to ban vaccine passports (before they even exist here) was a way to raise his national brand. 

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9 minutes ago, D C said:

Mandated by whom?

A cruise line wanting to minimise illness and the potential for cruise disruption is perfectly in line requiring their customers be vaccinated.  It's for the benefit of them and their customers and offers the possibility of a cruise that is perfectly normal in every way.  People aren't required to vaccinate unless they want to partake in cruising. It's a personal decision/tradeoff.

 

 

The conversation was spiraling around mandating a vaccine for general health of the population.  I was referring to some health authority in the USA mandating it for all citizens.  I really do not want cruise lines to mandate it (as long as they make FCCs right for their customers), but it is within their right as I stated in a prior post.  

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53 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

"The CDC doesn't make the rules for sailing," but the CDC solicited comments last year regarding the rules for sailing.  And they don't make the rules?  Are you serious?  See CDC website and timeline below.  Yikes.

 

Then, after that doozy, deflect to whether I provided input to the CDC as a prequalification for having any opinion?  Under your logic, why would anyone if the CDC in fact doesn't make the rules for sailing as you state?  That has zero to do with making comments on social media such as CruiseCritic. 

 

It also is severely naive, especially in todays historic DC cesspool establishment, to believe that letters to the CDC would have an impact.  The CDC takes it daily bread as broken by the Executive Branch and as buttered by the buttress of similarly aligned House and Senate members.

Look, if you have lost faith in government, that's your deal. But complaining about it here won't change anything. You had a chance to voice your opinion to the CDC and chose not to. The CDC is the gatekeeper so until they decide to rescind the order or grant the conditional sailing certificates we have to go through them like it or not.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

"The CDC doesn't make the rules for sailing," but the CDC solicited comments last year regarding the rules for sailing.  And they don't make the rules?  Are you serious?  See CDC website and timeline below.  Yikes.

 

Then, after that doozy, deflect to whether I provided input to the CDC as a prequalification for having any opinion?  Under your logic, why would anyone if the CDC in fact doesn't make the rules for sailing as you state?  That has zero to do with making comments on social media such as CruiseCritic. 

 

It also is severely naive, especially in todays historic DC cesspool establishment, to believe that letters to the CDC would have an impact.  The CDC takes it daily bread as broken by the Executive Branch and as buttered by the buttress of similarly aligned House and Senate members.

 

Here's today's cruise enthusiasts of such land-o-lakes ~

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24792-u-s-politicians-urge-cdc-to-keep-cruise-industry-closed.html

 

 

 

Framework for Conditional Sailing Order for Cruise

April 2, 2021 Update

On April 2, 2021, CDC released a new phase of the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (issued October 30, 2020) for cruise ships operating or seeking to operate in U.S. waters. CDC published technical instructions for cruise ship operators and for local health authorities outlining this phase of the Conditional Sailing Order.


October 30, 2020 Update

On October 30, 2020, CDC issued a Framework for Conditional Sailing Order. This Order is effective upon signature and was published in the Federal Register on November 4, 2020.

 

This Order shall remain in effect until the earliest of

  • The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
  • The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
  • November 1, 2021.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.

Previous No Sail Order for Cruise Ships

September 30, 2020 Update

On September 30, 2020, CDC extended the No Sail Order and Suspension of Further Embarkation; Third Modification and Extension of No Sail Order and Other Measures Related to Operations that was issued on July 16, 2020. The Order was effective upon signature and published in the Federal Register on October 5, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf  for the full requirements.


July 16, 2020 Update

On July 16, 2020, CDC extended the No Sail Order and Suspension of Further Embarkation; Notice of Modification and Extension and Other Measures Related to Operations signed by the CDC Director on April 9, 2020—subject to the modifications and additional stipulated conditions as set forth in this Order. The Order was effective upon signature and published in the Federal Registerexternal icon on July 21, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf  for the full requirements.


April 9, 2020 Update

On April 9, 2020, CDC renewed the No Sail Order and Other Measures Related to Operations Order signed by the CDC Director on March 14, 2020—subject to the modifications and additional stipulated conditions as set forth in this Order. The Order was published in the Federal Register and effective as of April 15, 2020.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.


March 14, 2020 Update

The CDC Director issued a No Sail Order for cruise ships effective March 14, 2020 due to the risk cruise ship travel introducing, transmitting, or spreading COVID-19. CDC commended the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA), the leading industry trade group, for their willingness to voluntarily suspend cruise ship operations from U.S. ports of call beginning on March 13, 2020 for the next thirty (30) days. The Order was publishedT in the Federal Register.

See the attached Order (print-only) pdf for the full requirements.

That headline is completely deceptive and so typical of Cruise Industry News.  Did you read the article or the letter?  The highlighted language below from the letter clearly states an expectation that the CDC will enforce the CSO and halt any cruise if outbreaks occur.  That is NOT urging the CDC to "keep the cruise industry closed".  EDIT:  As has been pointed out repeatedly by others on this thread, everyone will continue to complain, but the cruise lines are not going to be allowed to just start sailing with full fleets and no requirements.  Just ain't gonna happen.

 

Congresswoman Doris Matsui and U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal have sent a letter to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky,  "We urge you to strictly enforce the technical guidance issued under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) to minimize this threat, and take all appropriate steps—including halting cruises as necessary—if outbreaks occur on board...This guidance outlines procedures and protocols that will allow resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. Failing to adhere to this guidance could create unsafe conditions that jeopardize public health. Therefore, we believe it is a public health imperative that the CDC rigorously enforce the technical guidance under the CSO and take all necessary measures, including stopping cruise line operations as needed, if COVID-19 outbreaks happen aboard ships".

Edited by harkinmr
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2 hours ago, Pratique said:

Look, if you have lost faith in government, that's your deal. But complaining about it here won't change anything. You had a chance to voice your opinion to the CDC and chose not to. The CDC is the gatekeeper so until they decide to rescind the order or grant the conditional sailing certificates we have to go through them like it or not.

 

 

Look, sitting atop the Green Monster and barking is easy. 

 

Never said I lost faith in government, just have an adult, career long life of experiences that makes the motivations of some governments and regulators fair game to challenge and suspect.  I guess you could say it is an inalienable right.

 

Not complaining, simply acknowledging that the CDC, under the Executive branch, along with certain Congressional occupants, are part of the root cause of the continued CDC "sail orders" and related.

 

Your continued reference to giving ones opinion to the CDC, and that it is a prerequisite to posting in reply to you on a social media platform, is amusing.   

 

You now say the "CDC is the gatekeeper" after previously stating the "CDC doesn't make rules for sailing."  Let's just leave it at you can't have it both ways with such oscillation. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

That headline is completely deceptive and so typical of Cruise Industry News.  Did you read the article or the letter?  The highlighted language below from the letter clearly states an expectation that the CDC will enforce the CSO and halt any cruise if outbreaks occur.  That is NOT urging the CDC to "keep the cruise industry closed".  EDIT:  As has been pointed out repeatedly by others on this thread, everyone will continue to complain, but the cruise lines are not going to be allowed to just start sailing with full fleets and no requirements.  Just ain't gonna happen.

 

Congresswoman Doris Matsui and U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal have sent a letter to U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky,  "We urge you to strictly enforce the technical guidance issued under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order (CSO) to minimize this threat, and take all appropriate steps—including halting cruises as necessary—if outbreaks occur on board...This guidance outlines procedures and protocols that will allow resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. Failing to adhere to this guidance could create unsafe conditions that jeopardize public health. Therefore, we believe it is a public health imperative that the CDC rigorously enforce the technical guidance under the CSO and take all necessary measures, including stopping cruise line operations as needed, if COVID-19 outbreaks happen aboard ships".

 

Take a deep breath. 

 

The links were presented to support the assertion that, first, the CDC does make rules for sailing (the reply was to the member that said it did not (i.e., "the CDC does not make rules for sailing"), before the member then traversed and said the CDC was the "gatekeeper for sailing"), and second, that there are those in Congress providing butter for the daily bread (figuratively) House and Senate members to the CDC which are clearly not in support of the cruise industry.

 

Re: "the cruise lines are not going to be allowed to just start sailing with full fleets and no requirements.  Just ain't gonna happen."  you posed, just to clarify, "I" never posted such nonsense, I favor vaccinated cruises, I favor phased in capacities, I support masks (where appropriate), I support pre-boarding testing, and related protocols, etc.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

You now say the "CDC is the gatekeeper" after previously stating the "CDC doesn't make rules for sailing."  Let's just leave it at you can't have it both ways with such oscillation. 

Sorry you don't understand the CDC's role.

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Posted (edited)

In legal parlance  "gatekeeper" (sometimes called "gatekeeper function") does not really refer to the Judge in his decision-making duties; it means the standards established to determine the reliability or relevance of evidence upon which  a determination may be made. The same term is used to describe the factors a Court must consider in order to determine whether the opinions of an expert witness maybe considered. (generally known to the public as "Junk Science" and to attorneys as a "Daubert Challenge"). In applying the Gatekeeper factors in this case a Court would give deference to the reasonable determinations of a federal agency in exercising its legitimate powers. 

Edited by Stallion
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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Take a deep breath. 

 

The links were presented to support the assertion that, first, the CDC does make rules for sailing (the reply was to the member that said it did not (i.e., "the CDC does not make rules for sailing"), before the member then traversed and said the CDC was the "gatekeeper for sailing"), and second, that there are those in Congress providing butter for the daily bread (figuratively) House and Senate members to the CDC which are clearly not in support of the cruise industry.

 

Re: "the cruise lines are not going to be allowed to just start sailing with full fleets and no requirements.  Just ain't gonna happen."  you posed, just to clarify, "I" never posted such nonsense, I favor vaccinated cruises, I favor phased in capacities, I support masks (where appropriate), I support pre-boarding testing, and related protocols, etc.

 

 

You take a deep breath.  I did not say that you made any proposal that cruise lines sail unfettered by regulation.  It is, however, something that politicians have said recently.  I made a claim that the Cruise Industry News was being deceptive in both their headline "U.S. Politicians Urge CDC to Keep Cruise Industry Closed" and their summary of the letter.  And I stand by that claim. To their credit, they at least posted the letter at the end of their article.

Edited by harkinmr
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51 minutes ago, Stallion said:

In legal parlance  "gatekeeper" (sometimes called "gatekeeper function") does not really refer to the Judge in his decision-making duties; it means the standards established to determine the reliability or relevance of evidence upon which  a determination may be made. The same term is used to describe the factors a Court must consider in order to determine whether the opinions of an expert witness maybe considered. (generally known to the public as "Junk Science" and to attorneys as a "Daubert Challenge"). In applying the Gatekeeper factors in this case a Court would give deference to the reasonable determinations of a federal agency in exercising its legitimate powers. 

I know, it’s a term of art. I’m using it colloquially to mean the CDC will (if we ever get that far) determine whether the return to sail plans submitted by each of the cruise lines should be approved in view of the guidance that has been set forth (or some variation of it, but it sounds like some members of Congress are taking a hard line on this so who knows).

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8 hours ago, Pratique said:

It's not just "we," it is also the obligation of the cruise line under international law. So they can and should have the final say in this matter. We don't get to decide for them what is best for us.

 

Wait. What? Did you just say that a business gets to decide what's best for us? LOL You should really stick to complaining about missing cookies from your 'Welcome Aboard' amenity. 

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4 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Wait. What? Did you just say that a business gets to decide what's best for us? LOL You should really stick to complaining about missing cookies from your 'Welcome Aboard' amenity. 

Lol too funny what if I get too many cookies?

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1 hour ago, Pratique said:

Sorry you don't understand the CDC's role.

 

Sorry, but your understanding of the CDC's role has done a 180.  You stated that the CDC does not make the rules for sailing.  IMO, that is so wrong.  Waffle.

 

Just now ~

 

https://cruiseradio.net/cruise-return-faces-opposition-support/

The Tug of War Over The Cruise Industry’s Future

Bruce Parkinson

Published

 44 mins ago 

on

 April 15, 2021

At the heart of the debate? The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which is charged with making decisions crucial to the future of an embattled industry."

 
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36 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I know, it’s a term of art. I’m using it colloquially to mean the CDC will (if we ever get that far) determine whether the return to sail plans submitted by each of the cruise lines should be approved in view of the guidance that has been set forth (or some variation of it, but it sounds like some members of Congress are taking a hard line on this so who knows).

 

Actually, one cruise line has submitted a plan and have not received the answers.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24798-norwegian-cruise-line-wants-an-answers-from-the-cdc.html

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC

April 15, 2021
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1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

You take a deep breath.  I did not say that you made any proposal that cruise lines sail unfettered by regulation.  It is, however, something that politicians have said recently.  I made a claim that the Cruise Industry News was being deceptive in both their headline "U.S. Politicians Urge CDC to Keep Cruise Industry Closed" and their summary of the letter.  And I stand by that claim. To their credit, they at least posted the letter at the end of their article.

 

NNTRAWOT

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

So far there is not a single cruise line that has stated vaccines are required when cruising resumes out of US ports. If RCL does NOT insist on all passengers to be vaccinated will you get on the ship?

 

19 hours ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

You do realize that you're arguing for others to support a rule that doesn't even exist! LOL

Who said I was strictly referring to US cruises? There are also other cruise lines that are strictly vaccinations required. I will probably not get on a ship in the beginning if vaccines aren’t required. I will have to see how things go. 

Edited by ReneeFLL
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27 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Actually, one cruise line has submitted a plan and have not received the answers.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24798-norwegian-cruise-line-wants-an-answers-from-the-cdc.html

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC

April 15, 2021

Thank for sharing this, hope it gets approved soon.

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33 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Actually, one cruise line has submitted a plan and have not received the answers.

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24798-norwegian-cruise-line-wants-an-answers-from-the-cdc.html

 

Norwegian Cruise Line Wants an Answer from the CDC

April 15, 2021

 

"..... said it strongly believes that by requiring mandatory vaccinations for guests and crew on initial voyages, in addition to comprehensive protocols including universal COVID-19 testing...."  

 

'Initial' is a key word here... and it's strictly my opinion, but I feel like if once start they start the requirement of vaccinations, it will not end.  

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