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DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida


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6 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

I'm really sorry you lost your mother to this. I truly am. 

 

With that said, almost every time I hear about "common decency and moral obligation" on the internet, it is an emotional play to override logic. This is no different. It's almost like correlating that me cruising without a vaccine personally killing people like your mother because I am selfish. 

 

COVID is not a threat to everyone, period. In the nursing home incidents, what if the patients and staff were vaccinated? What does it matter at that point what someone on vacation is doing? Quit always trying to point the blame to someone. For anyone who just opened up Google to find a reason to argue that, just stop. We had tons of nursing home deaths because we "took action" but not the right action in most cases. Look at the disaster in New York. Just "doing stuff" is ineffective and always will be. 

 

And then we talk about selfish people who don't want to get vaccinated because other people might have their vacation inconvenienced. Talk about irony. You can't make this self-righteousness up. I don't take medicine I don't need. I have already had COVID. Not only was I just fine, but no one has yet to prove why I need a vaccine or that the vaccine is stronger than my natural immunity. There is no reason to stop a cruise if all of the scared and sick people have the vaccination. We never stopped a cruise for an illness matter how old and sickly some people were on board. Just put the internet down. 

 

 

This post screams of "I fully support the right of businesses to make the choices they feel are right for their business. As long as it is exactly the same view I have". 

Smartest thing I've read all day. Especially the part about people taking cheap shots at others in the name of "caring" more for others. Classic ad hominem, specifically this one, it's an appeal to emotion, and thus a logical fallacy. Anyone who tries that on me, has failed to persuade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

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21 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Smartest thing I've read all day. Especially the part about people taking cheap shots at others in the name of "caring" more for others. Classic ad hominem, specifically this one, it's an appeal to emotion, and thus a logical fallacy. Anyone who tries that on me, has failed to persuade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

Pretentious nonsense.  Pure and simple.  "Cheap shots"?  Pot meet kettle.

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19 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

.......The world has changed in so many regrettable ways, but the reality is having Covid19 is not special or unique or even worrying.  We need to realize where we are!  We need to get back to life.......

 

 

 

Did you really mean to say that? Honestly? SMH!

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8 hours ago, ticketsunlimited said:

Reading through the 300+ comments with both scientific and political responses I think the consensus has pretty much agreed on what the topic was initially about.

If cruising was to start in the near future (who knows what that means) it would be beneficial to start with ships completely vaccinated.  
I also think the consensus is that DeSantis stepping in to take that possibility of sailing away from all of us with his “executive order” is not beneficial to anyone.

The only benefit of his blocking companies from requiring proof of vaccination before boarding I have read about on this topic is the few that feel their  “liberty’s” are being stripped away.

My final thought is under the current conditions with Covid the cruising companies would get faster approval to sail, passengers would be safer, passengers would feel more comfortable, ports of call would be more accessible, and the industry could start to get on their feet if fully vaccinated cruises where allowed to begin initially. 
It would not be forever!! Those that don’t care to partake because they feel their “liberties” have been stripped can wait until the cruise companies change their policies back to pre-pandemic days.

 

 

Very well written, but some people just don’t get it.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Joebucks said:

almost every time I hear about "common decency and moral obligation" on the internet, it is an emotional play to override logic.

 

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

My mother's death occurred in August of 2020 after our Governor opened our state (Florida) and downplayed the need for masks and other health protocols. 

 

harkinmr - I am very sorry for your mother's death, especially a death like this.  I'm glad you're here helping people learn from such a tragedy.

 

Joebucks - I agree that sometimes 'moral obligation' is used an emotional play. 

But in this particular case, I don't see it that way.  I see it as a crucial part of the argument's logic. 

 

Vaccines weren't available in August 2020.  But mask wearing and avoiding crowded indoor venues were. The nursing home employee who brought in covid may have caught it despite wearing masks, and avoiding indoor crowds. 

 

But someone in the spread tree didn't take sufficient precautions.

 

Perhaps that person knew the moral obligation not to spread the disease, but they got exposed at their job or at home, didn't know they were positive, and spread it to others. 

 

Or perhaps the person truly didn't believe they had any moral obligation to avoid potentially spreading the virus. Lots of excuses for this have been promoted, sometimes for political reasons.  'Masks don't work, or are harmful', 'it's just the flu', 'I'm creating herd immunity', 'only 6% of the deaths are real', etc.

 

It feels odd to need to say this, but some people clearly have not internalized it:  Covid spreads from in-person contacts. So attending many crowded indoor gatherings produces more spread.  More spread can produce additional deaths.  When behavior can cause the deaths of others, there's a moral obligation to consider.

 

 

Edited by Shorewalk Holmes
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4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

 All those people who died with Covid should most certainly be included in the Covid death stats. They were still alive dealing with their co-morbidities but it was Covid that ultimately caused their untimely deaths.

How can you be so sure of this? If I had a heart attack and tested positive for Covid, how do you know it was, for sure, Covid - not the heart attack - that killed them?

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7 minutes ago, CaroleSS said:

How can you be so sure of this? If I had a heart attack and tested positive for Covid, how do you know it was, for sure, Covid - not the heart attack - that killed them?

Let me clarify......I was referring to people with chronic co-morbidities (which is usually referred to when we hear the word "co-morbidities when discussing Covid deaths) vs an acute medical event such as a heart attack. I assumed this was understood.

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5 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Let me clarify......I was referring to people with chronic co-morbidities (which is usually referred to when we hear the word "co-morbidities when discussing Covid deaths) vs an acute medical event such as a heart attack. I assumed this was understood.

So my chronic co-morbidities are COPD, high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, a pacemaker, plus I'm 95. I test positive for Covid and die. How can you be sure it was Covid that "pushed me over the edge".

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Getting back to the topic of this thread, "DeSantis could sink our chances of cruising out of Florida", I predict he will back off and allow cruise lines to require proof of vaccination.  His desire to get the cruise industry jump started back in Florida (if that what it takes) is much greater than any exemption to his executive order banning vaccine passports. 

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12 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

No, aren’t you the one quoting that half a million have died.  The tv tells me how many millions are infected.  I am not talking about the deaths and the tragic loss, and even you know better.  You are just pretending to care more.  Great, you care.  Happy for you.

 

if 100 people show up at a Port city like FLL or MIA with Covid19, it is not going to freak out the hospital infrastructure which was what I said, and not the cherry picked quote, and you know it.

 

I am going to start selectively editing your posts and we shall see how you like it.

 

It would strain my home town hospital😉

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On 4/13/2021 at 2:51 PM, SailyaCruise said:

FYI. Per Reuters, metrics as of 4/11/21. Sort columnar data in descending order by highest percentage cases to date.  CA 1st place; TX 2d; FL is 3rd place in the nation.  I won't be setting foot in FL even for a beloved cruise. And certainly will not be taking my life in my hands by playing Russian Roulette with my health by sailing with people who on principle are ok with jeopardizing their own health and others' with contracting a potentially deadly disease that has taken at least half a million precious lives so far.  And I get my 2d Pfizer shot this Friday.  Thank God I live in a place where public spaces are banning people who refuse to wear masks at a minimum, and where everyone is getting vaccinated.  All the more reason to bring big ships up north, but they just won't budge.

Where U.S. coronavirus cases are on the rise (reuters.com)

Spring Break. Stay home and hide in your closet. 

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On 4/14/2021 at 11:38 PM, ReneeFLL said:

You can't compare apples to oranges. If I go to a movie it's not going to be cut short because someone has covid. I also didn't pay big bucks for it nor did I take my vacation time for it. Hugh difference. I don't know why people can't understand such things.

 

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On 4/15/2021 at 3:34 PM, harkinmr said:

The obligation begins and ends when there is a deadly virus that impacts us all.  Common human decency and, yes, moral obligation comes into play.  I agree that people also have an obligation to not drink and drive and there are criminal and civil penalties for doing so.  Those who choose to drink and drive are violating their obligation to others as well.  Shall we have criminal or civil penalties against those who have been intentionally negligent and sickened another with COVID? 

 

My mother died of COVID.  She lived in a congregate elder care center in Florida and never left there.  A staff member brought COVID into the facility and sickened 40 out of 80 patients, numerous of which passed away, including my mother who suffered terribly.  I don't know whether that staff person was intentionally negligent, but that person suffered no consequences for their actions/inactions.  But I still hold them and the facility she was in responsible for her death.  My opinion.  It is not a slippery slope when it comes to common sense and decency. 

 

Finally, there will be no federal mandate for vaccines at this time.  Could that change in the future.  Maybe.  Vaccine mandates have been upheld in all 50 states for public schools and universities.  The EEOC has said that employers can mandate the COVID vaccine as well.  These mandates have, and will likely continue to be legally supported.  If the cruise lines mandate vaccines it is well within their rights to do so at this time.  Personal freedom and liberty will be left shoreside.

Pauline and I send you and your family our sincere condolences for the loss of your dear mam due to covid19.

Graham.

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13 hours ago, KsucAts said:

This is how me and my wife (and 2 children) feel.  We all have had the virus.  There is no evidence that I have seen that any more than a tiny, tiny fraction of people have become reinfected.  So the logic tells me that the natural immunity is very strong.  I see articles every day about vaccinated people becoming infected.  So that reassures me that the natural immunity is stronger than the vaccine.  I also hear of a lot of people having (most of them minor) side affects to the vaccine.  So why on earth should I get a vaccine where I am likely to have some sort of side affects when I already have stronger immunity to the virus than the vaccine provides.

 

To be fully protected, the Marines suggest you get vaccinated. 

 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2021/04/16/having-covid-doesnt-guarantee-immunity-study-of-marine-recruits-finds/

 

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Had my first Pfizer shot yesterday, the vaccine card I got had a sticker on it saying where and when I got the shot, but none of my personal info was filled in.  Seems like it will be quite easy to make fake vaccine passports.  Even if a vaccine is required, how many will fake it?

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

So my chronic co-morbidities are COPD, high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, a pacemaker, plus I'm 95. I test positive for Covid and die. How can you be sure it was Covid that "pushed me over the edge".

 

Its easy to see the real COVID death numbers. Just look at numbers of dead over and above a normal year. It tracks pretty damn closely to the COVID death total. There has been a massive increase in deaths this year. I can assure you its not more people that usual dying from their heart attacks.

 

2020 Excess Deaths in the U.S. General Population by Age and Sex (soa.org) 

Edited by pmd98052
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1 hour ago, mugtech said:

Had my first Pfizer shot yesterday, the vaccine card I got had a sticker on it saying where and when I got the shot, but none of my personal info was filled in.  Seems like it will be quite easy to make fake vaccine passports.  Even if a vaccine is required, how many will fake it?

That was sloppy on the part of the person doing your shot.  As for people making fake vaccine passports and cards, since I am vaccinated, I really don't care.  That's on them if they get covid.  IF I contract it from them, chances are my symptoms would be so mild, I wouldn't notice.  For my upcoming cruises, there still is nothing about what the ship plans to do for embarkation on Carnival in September if it even happens and my next RCCL cruise is February.  So if there are vaccine requirements, I haven't seen anything yet.

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5 hours ago, grapau27 said:

Pauline and I send you and your family our sincere condolences for the loss of your dear mam due to covid19.

Graham.

Thank you Graham. 

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15 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

So my chronic co-morbidities are COPD, high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, a pacemaker, plus I'm 95. I test positive for Covid and die. How can you be sure it was Covid that "pushed me over the edge".

I'm not a doctor but I would imagine a doctor should be able to reliably tell what caused the death of his patient. Covid pneumonia is pretty easy to diagnose I would think.

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3 hours ago, jean87510 said:

That was sloppy on the part of the person doing your shot.  As for people making fake vaccine passports and cards, since I am vaccinated, I really don't care.  That's on them if they get covid.  IF I contract it from them, chances are my symptoms would be so mild, I wouldn't notice.  For my upcoming cruises, there still is nothing about what the ship plans to do for embarkation on Carnival in September if it even happens and my next RCCL cruise is February.  So if there are vaccine requirements, I haven't seen anything yet.

Not necessarily sloppy, at the mega centers here in TX, when you are doing 2000 shots at a drive through center, the cards are handed out without personal information in the interest of efficiency. 

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3 hours ago, jean87510 said:

That was sloppy on the part of the person doing your shot.  As for people making fake vaccine passports and cards, since I am vaccinated, I really don't care.  

Except the unvaccinated could get covid 19 and then cause all kinds of changes and problems for the entire ship.  Could you imagine a ship with half the passengers not vaccinated?

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1 hour ago, TheMastodon said:

Fatigue is setting in worldwide.  Need shots in the arm as fast as everyone can get them!  

 

Where’s Chip?  Haven’t heard from him in a while.  

7DDE2502-B38E-43C4-ACCA-174E7BD5AB48.thumb.jpeg.d7d8e873c2e37b9a9f921dc0f4057a2e.jpegFCFF4D57-A6DB-49AC-A926-7DD22AA831AC.thumb.jpeg.3184ec6fd54fdd291b13624ec650b9c8.jpeg

 

Yep.

 

You know, the requirements of wearing a mask have completely ignored wearing the right masks, and putting on and taking off the masks with before and after hand washing or alcohol based sanitizer "every time."

 

IMO, this is definitely not happening.

 

Further, many never dispose of a mask, hang it on the car mirror, for possibly days and weeks.  Some have proffered that such incorrect masks and improper use may in fact "increase" the transmission risk.

 

It makes sense.  Your chart appear to at least make it a consideration.

 

Again, thanks for a post with support information.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TheMastodon said:

Fatigue is setting in worldwide.  Need shots in the arm as fast as everyone can get them!  

 

Agreed.  Your point is mask fatigue, not mask efficacy, so this isn't a criticism of you.  But the graph labels on the South Korea graph, which are no doubt accurate, might lead some people make incorrect inferences.

 

The main takeaway from the graph, I believe, should be that mask compliance in South Korea was very high, and the weekly average was relatively low. 

 

According to this graph, at the peak in early January, South Korea had about 1050 daily new cases.  Their population is a bit over 51 million.

 

During roughly the same time, Florida had over 10 times that number, about 13000 daily new cases, from a population of about 21.5 million. 

 

Of course there are possible demographic reasons for this huge difference (age distribution, for instance) but there are others that might work in the opposite direction (e.g. population density).  And surely the difference isn't all about masks. South Korea probably took other strict measures.

 

Edited by Shorewalk Holmes
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