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NCL may pull out of Florida over DeSantis' rules forbidding proof of vaccination


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3 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Well here's where I think DeSantis is dead wrong. Cruise ships are a lot of things, but public accommodations ain't one of them. That's like saying a private golf course is the same as a public park. Nuh-uh...

 

“We would object to it,” DeSantis said at a press event last month in response to a question from a reporter about vaccine mandates for cruise ships. “What if you have a reason for why you didn’t get vaccinated? You then can’t participate in society like everybody else? These [cruise ships] are basically public accommodations, and to have different classes of citizens based on vaccine status, I think is a big, big mistake.”

 

 

There SHOULD be two different classes of citizens. One class is the Covid vaccinated who can not transmit a deadly virus and the other class is the Covid un-vaccinated who can transmit this deadly virus and not even know it if they are asymptomatic.

 

DeSantis needs to call a spade a spade and stop evading reality! 

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2 hours ago, PTC DAWG said:

I like the guy, I never agree with anyone on everything, and I don't agree with him here.  Not sure what's he trying to accomplish with this move.  

I like DeSantis too and I voted for him. But.....as you said, I do not agree with everything he does and this issue is certainly one of them. He is on a path of losing millions in revenue for his state of Florida. Not a good move.

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Does DeSantis expect the cruise lines to go against the CDC guidance for cruising to restart? Doesn't the CDC have the last word in this? Who has more "power", the CDC or Florida law?

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24 minutes ago, Torence said:

I just don't get DeSantis actions; there seems to be no upside to what he is doing.  Even in so called "normal times", pre-pandemic, flus could spread very easily on a cruise ship.  Its in NCL's best interest, financial and otherwise, to take steps to protect their customers and employees.  Requiring covid vaccines seems to be a effective way of doing it. DeSantis preventing cruise lines from doing this just seems foolish and short sighted.  If he gets his way and ships sail without the vaccine requirement, how long will it be until another outbreak occurs?  One or two more Dimond / Grand Princess debacles could deliver a severe blow to the cruise industry.  They may never recover from it.

My guess is that like a lot of laws lately, someone or some cruise line will challenge it in court.   I don't have a legal background, but I think most lawyers would want be challenging this law rather than defending it in court.

Excellent points Torence. On my cruise I got a flu simply from having dinner with people one of them who had gotten sick (solo gathering from the studios)

NCL is trying to do the right thing by having everyone vaccinated. 

What good is it going to do FLA if NCL can't sail from there and FLA doesn't get the revenue I wonder.

FLA and NCL both need one another as well. You are exactly right- can't believe FLA would want to risk another Princess debacle and then deal with the fallout when they turn away ths ship.

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5 hours ago, coffeebean said:

Does DeSantis expect the cruise lines to go against the CDC guidance for cruising to restart? Doesn't the CDC have the last word in this? Who has more "power", the CDC or Florida law?

CDC doesn’t make law. Cruise lines while docked at the port are under state jurisdiction and the ports are state authority. Once the ship sails, it’s under federal jurisdiction. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, CI66774 said:

CDC doesn’t make law. Cruise lines while docked at the port are under state jurisdiction and the ports are state authority. Once the ship sails, it’s under federal jurisdiction. 

This is 100% wrong. I am so tired of pointing this out— post after post, thread after thread. I no longer have the energy to respond with the legal analysis every time. I will now simply flag posts like this for others so they know several of us lawyers have opined on this numerous times. This post is 100% wrong and inconsistent with US law and US Constitutional jurisprudence since the founding of this Country. 

Edited by Navis
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I’m not a Norwegian cruiser but have done a few on Oceania. I came here because I saw the news article and was intrigued by what the reaction would be. I have to say it wasn’t what I expected.

 

To me it’s not a question of what’s legal, who’s right or wrong, or where the loopholes are. It’s simply a matter of my own well being and comfort level. Would I book a cruise on a ship where there are going to be unvaccinated passengers or where I don’t know whether they’ve all been vaccinated or not? Not @#$&* likely right now.  There are other alternatives out there for the next couple of years where I won’t have to worry about it.  Once I reach a higher level of confidence I’ll reconsider.

 

This is what NCL has to reconcile. How many clients will be turned off like me if there are unshot people aboard and can we accept the risk of the fallout from another COVID outbreak on one of our ships?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, CI66774 said:

No, it’s about medical privacy. The issue is not nearly as simplistic and devoid of nuance as you seem to think.

😆

Thanks for the good laugh at 4:12 am 

 

But reality is vaccines have always been mandated to go to schools, military, and foreign travel.  Some have politicized Covid which leads us to what is happening now.  Sorry to see you leave cruising since vaccines will be required for years to come. The sadder part is we were able to snuff out small pox and polio with vaccines.  With this kind of thinking, Covid will be huddling around us for decades and will make the Covid vaccine even more mandatory that it is today.  Pardon us who want to snuff it out, rip off the masks and get back to normal.

Think about how insane this is.  NCL is trying to protect their valued customers and crew yet a governor will not allow that.  

Edited by david_sobe
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Navis said:

This is 100% wrong. I am so tired of pointing this out— post after post, thread after thread. I no longer have the energy to respond with the legal analysis every time. I will now simply flag posts like this for others so they know several of us lawyers have opined on this numerous times. This post is 100% wrong and inconsistent with US law and US Constitutional jurisprudence since the founding of this Country. 

Just because you post as an alleged lawyer that you believe it’s wrong without any evidence doesn’t mean anything.

 

They are free to sail out of another state if they wish, and once in international waters, are not governed by the laws of Florida

 

i rest my case your honor

Edited by Luckiestmanonearth
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If I was on the board of NCLH I would be concerned reading about the anti-vaccination brigade on cruise critic.

NCL are trying their hardest to get the cruises going only to be criticised by idiots that read opinions in the press, who could have any agenda.

Disgraceful... 

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14 hours ago, jrapps said:

I feel like the CEOs of the cruise companies and the governor are friends (or at least political acquaintances) so that might complicate this, but I wonder if NCL or another cruise company would just proactively sue the state arguing the law is unconstitutional, or at a minimum has no jurisdiction on cruises  Just get an answer to the legality of this once and for all so we can just move beyond it. All this it is vs it isn't legal posturing is just too much.

This is what really needs to happen.  Currently I don't think Desantis will back down because his party has become more concerned with culture fights than than anything else.  At the end of the day court fight might take a little while and during that time other ports that don't have this rule will be sailing with vaccine requirements.  

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5 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

NCL has sent scouting teams to Savannah and Charelston to look for new and permanent terminals 

Savannah would be great. We really don't care for Orlando and Miami is not much better.

 

Have never been to Savannah but know that it is an historic place like New Orleans, our favorite port to sail from. Would enjoy a couple of days there on either end of the cruise.

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7 hours ago, CI66774 said:

CDC doesn’t make law. Cruise lines while docked at the port are under state jurisdiction and the ports are state authority. Once the ship sails, it’s under federal jurisdiction. 

While I won't argue the legality of DeSantis' law, even for Florida businesses, this statement is not quite correct.  The dock and the terminal are both state and federal jurisdiction, but the water, right up next to the dock, is strictly federal jurisdiction, since these are "navigable waters of the US".  So, even when tied up to the dock, the ship is not under state jurisdiction, in most cases.  Now, having said that, you also get into the "jurisdictional overlap" of "flag state" and "port state" (nation where the port is located).  And this leads to maritime law, since two nations are involved.  Typically, "port states" do not impose their jurisdiction on the ship, unless the "safety or well being" of the port state is affected.  So, the ship requiring proof of vaccination is an "internal policy or procedure", and as such is not susceptible to federal law (and state law does not even come into the equation), as decided by SCOTUS in Spector v NCL, where the justices held that even the ADA did not totally apply to foreign cruise ships, without specific mention by Congress in the Act.  Jurisdictional overlap is a complex part of maritime law, and one reason there are Admiralty lawyers at all.

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In my opinion DeSantis is like many politicians.  Appeal to as many folk as possible.  His way out is simply to make a lot of noise when it first began (I will sue the CDC so cruising can begin as it is hurting the economy of Florida).   Then when cruise ships figure out a way to sail by mandating vaccinations for all aboard (I will not allow Florida businesses to invade people's medical privacy), appeal to other folk.  The win for DeSantis is that if the Federal government says they can sail, then many people are happy and forget the rest of it, and DeSantis can say "See, the liberal, socialist FEDERAL government has, once again, stepped into your private lives and ONLY I CAN FIX IT".

Sound familiar?🤔😇😷

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13 hours ago, Torence said:

I just don't get DeSantis actions; there seems to be no upside to what he is doing.

He wants to run for president one day. That is his upside. As long as he is coming across to his base as defending rights, even in the face of economic ruin, he can spin that message. Short term he may want cruising in FL again for the economic win, but even if they all leave, he is betting that it doesn't impact his chances in FL all that much and it gives him more prominence nationwide for standing up to the overreach of the Biden administration (aka CDC)

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1 hour ago, Laszlo said:

NCL has sent scouting teams to Savannah and Charelston to look for new and permanent terminals 

Awesome!!  I will even let my closest CC friends stay at my house if NCL starts to sail out of Savannah!!!  Party time in the Hostess City of the South!!

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8 hours ago, CI66774 said:

CDC doesn’t make law. Cruise lines while docked at the port are under state jurisdiction and the ports are state authority. Once the ship sails, it’s under federal jurisdiction. 

This could be a big problem for Florida.

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1 hour ago, Laszlo said:

NCL has sent scouting teams to Savannah and Charelston to look for new and permanent terminals 

Both cities would be fine with us, and Savannah is a closer/easier drive for us than Miami (we are central FL residents).  We generally are okay with what the governor does, but when he proposed the ban of covid passports we just shook our heads.... Glad that our cruises for the next two years will be sailing from other ports not in FL. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, CI66774 said:

No, it’s about medical privacy. The issue is not nearly as simplistic and devoid of nuance as you seem to think.

I honestly do not believe this has anything to do with "medical privacy". Showing proof of vaccination has absolutely nothing to do with transparency of health issues. Proof of vaccination does not divulge if a person is diabetic, has hypertension, cardiac disease, liver ailments, kidney failure, etc. etc, etc. You get my drift.

 

Proof of vaccination is something anyone who has received the vaccine is willing to shout from the rooftops. Who wouldn't want to have the ability to prove they have been immunized against a deadly virus that has caused a global pandemic? Medical privacy is NOT the issue here. "Medical privacy" is an issue for those who refuse the vaccine or can not be inoculated because of medical issues. No one has to admit to why they are not vaccinated so, again, NO medical issue here.

Edited by coffeebean
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4 hours ago, david_sobe said:

😆

Thanks for the good laugh at 4:12 am 

 

But reality is vaccines have always been mandated to go to schools, military, and foreign travel.  Some have politicized Covid which leads us to what is happening now.  Sorry to see you leave cruising since vaccines will be required for years to come. The sadder part is we were able to snuff out small pox and polio with vaccines.  With this kind of thinking, Covid will be huddling around us for decades and will make the Covid vaccine even more mandatory that it is today.  Pardon us who want to snuff it out, rip off the masks and get back to normal.

Think about how insane this is.  NCL is trying to protect their valued customers and crew yet a governor will not allow that.  

Hasn't the Texas governor taken the same stance as DeSantis? There are cruise ports in Texas that will be effected by this proof of vaccine ban too. Big sigh.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Hasn't the Texas governor taken the same stance as DeSantis? There are cruise ports in Texas that will be effected by this proof of vaccine ban too. Big sigh.

LOL...I'm having the same conversation right now over in the Royal forum

 

Yes Texas banned the passports, but Abbott's is still just an EO, not a law. Also, he didn't explicitly say that his order applied to cruise ships the way that FL did. He is playing the situation much cooler. Texas still has the ability to say "we ban Covid passports" and also admit that their ban doesn't have the jurisdiction to apply to cruise ships. 

 

also, Abbott's order still says "businesses that receive public funds from the state" can't ask for vaccine proof. I don't think the cruise lines fall into that category.

Edited by jrapps
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