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I'm beginning to think the CDC may very well lose the lawsuit that Florida initiated


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On 6/10/2021 at 11:23 AM, SuiteTraveler said:

 During this pandemic, Texas and Florida have been two of the best states to live in where things have been the least restricted.   The pandemic is clearly ending there!  So happy for everyone in Florida!  I think it will only be a matter of a few more weeks and all counties in Florida, even Miami-Dade and Broward will be at 0 new cases.  That's notable because there are so many people living in high density (high rise) housing in that area.  New York City, by contrast is still struggling with 248 cases per day.  

 That's a fact, thanks to our great governor, Rockin' Ron!   He's been great to us residents and our economy. 

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On 6/10/2021 at 11:23 AM, SuiteTraveler said:

That's notable because there are so many people living in high density (high rise) housing in that area.  New York City, by contrast is still struggling with 248 cases per day.  

But, when you actually compare apples to apples, you see that NYC has 20 times the population of Miami, and twice the population density.

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4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Your specious reasoning just makes my head hurt. Do you really not understand it or are you just stirring the pot?

 

Obviously staying inside, in a bubble, with people to whom you're already exposed and who are already exposed to you is safer, from the standpoint of infectivity, than being outdoors among people to whom you are NOT regularly exposed. 

 

You are trying to equate that with something completely different: the fact that when you are in a situation where you may be exposed to infectious people (who aren't in your household or "bubble"), there is a lessened risk of transmission outdoors vs. indoors simply due to the better ventilation.

 

I don't think it is stirring the pot, just selective reading😜

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Your specious reasoning just makes my head hurt. Do you really not understand it or are you just stirring the pot?

 

This pandemic has been useful in that it has helped sort the wheat from the chaff. I have learnt to use the ignore feature more because I of exactly that. The head hurting, fact free logic some use is painful. I sometimes see what they have written when they are quoted and it reinforces my decision.

Edited by frantic36
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I do not think that comparing cities (i.e. Miami to NYC) or various States is not helpful or relevant at this point in time.  Why?  In the USA we reached a point (probably in the latter part of May) where our ability to give vaccinations exceeded the demand.  The reality is that anyone in the USA who wants to be vaccinated can now get vaccinated and would likely be able to get a shot the same day.  So when you talk about 200+ daily cases in NYC (I have not verified the number) you are generally talking about folks who are either not vaccinated (their choice) or who are not "fully" vaccinated.  The number of fully vaccinated folks (breakthroughs) are statistically meaningless.  In fact, the CDC has stated that they no longer have any interest in breakthrough cases except in the very rare circumstances where those folks are hospitalized.   So at this point in time the number of reported cases in any area is more a factor of the number of folks who refuse to get vaccinated.  That has little to with politics, governors, etc. but probably has something to do with the intelligence of folks in various parts of the country.  

 

Hank

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Posted (edited)

Desantis may have won this battle but lost my business.

I cancelled 3 planned cruises out of Florida in 2021 and 2022.  Not worth putting my life at risk 

 

Politics wins over public health and common sense again

Edited by Luckiestmanonearth
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The fact now is that FL and the CDC lost. They can appeal, but it will be hard for them to do and it will require data. Unfortunately the data the CDC doesn't support their narrative. That narrative was politically driven partially. If the data they had was as bad as the promoted, they would have targeted all travel. This is what the Judge pointed out. It is horrible when doctors play lawyer and politician at the same time. It is usually a recipe for failure and that is exactly what happened. If the CDC took politics out, didn't care about which side was in office, they would have had a lot more credibility.

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On 5/9/2021 at 12:02 PM, ontheweb said:

I have posted several times in response to those extolling the chances of the lawsuit being won by Florida (and Alaska added) that the courts give great weight to regulatory agencies and expecting the CDC to lose especially during a pandemic was fanciful. But, now I note that they just lost a lawsuit by landlords opposing the not being able to force tenants to leave for non payment of rent. The CDC claimed this would cause homelessness, and that would lead to the spread of Covid. The courts did  not see the connection with Covid, and ruled in favor of the landlords. Now looking at some of the requirements that seem to be in the new order such as putting your mask on between bites of food or sips of a beverage that are so opposite of the general direction of what is allowed after vaccinations, it does seem that they may very well become so arbitrary and capricious to have judges say you have gone too far. JMHO.

 

They may very well be suffering from what Hank has described as once power is achieved, governmental officials just do not want to let it go.

OP back, and looking at my original post in this thread, it looks like at the time I nailed it perfectly.

 

I do have to admit though (and it is somewhere in this thread) that I did change my mind, but I had it right at the outset. I guess you should stick with first impressions. 😉

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5 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

The fact now is that FL and the CDC lost. They can appeal, but it will be hard for them to do and it will require data. Unfortunately the data the CDC doesn't support their narrative. That narrative was politically driven partially. If the data they had was as bad as the promoted, they would have targeted all travel. This is what the Judge pointed out. It is horrible when doctors play lawyer and politician at the same time. It is usually a recipe for failure and that is exactly what happened. If the CDC took politics out, didn't care about which side was in office, they would have had a lot more credibility.

It’s also horrible when lawyers play doctors. Even worse when lawyer/politicians play public health professionals.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Catnip said:

 That's a fact, thanks to our great governor, Rockin' Ron!   He's been great to us residents and our economy. 

You're welcome to your opinions.  Florida has had 37,500 deaths from COVID, over 2.3 Million cases, and my county has plateaued at a 39% total vaxxed rate.  I wouldn't call that a great record.

 

But Florida did win its case, and we can put the CDC in the loser camp, same as the Gov's hero DT.

Edited by evandbob
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43 minutes ago, evandbob said:

You're welcome to your opinions.  Florida has had 37,500 deaths from COVID, over 2.3 Million cases, and my county has plateaued at a 39% total vaxxed rate.  I wouldn't call that a great record.

 

But Florida did win its case, and we can put the CDC in the loser camp, same as the Gov's hero DT.

+1

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2 hours ago, CPT Trips said:

It’s also horrible when lawyers play doctors. Even worse when lawyer/politicians play public health professionals.

They wouldn't have had to if the Epidemiologists and those fighting for election would have played by a set of rules across the board. I am thankful a Judge had to slap them back to reality. This is now precedence that the government cannot overstep its authority and to treat businesses equally. If the CDC had done things fairly and scientifically, the airlines, trains, and other mass transit systems would have been shutdown as well.

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18 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

Desantis may have won this battle but lost my business.

I cancelled 3 planned cruises out of Florida in 2021 and 2022.  Not worth putting my life at risk 

 

Politics wins over public health and common sense again

 

If you are vaccinated, your life is not at risk, even if you are exposed to someone with Covid-19. The vaccines available in the USA are very, very good. The chances of a breakthrough case are only .05 of 1%.  To me, the bigger issue is if the ship is not allowed to make port because someone onboard is diagnosed with Covid-19 and you wind up on a cruise to nowhere instead of the trip you expected.  

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43 minutes ago, SuiteTraveler said:

 

If you are vaccinated, your life is not at risk, even if you are exposed to someone with Covid-19. The vaccines available in the USA are very, very good. The chances of a breakthrough case are only .05 of 1%.  To me, the bigger issue is if the ship is not allowed to make port because someone onboard is diagnosed with Covid-19 and you wind up on a cruise to nowhere instead of the trip you expected.  


it’s not that but the worry is if the ship will get stuck in port upon return and delay my ability to leave the ship

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16 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:


it’s not that but the worry is if the ship will get stuck in port upon return and delay my ability to leave the ship

When Celebrity had 2 passengers test positive for Covid-19, they were offloaded and send home on a chartered flight (# if you cruise be sure to buy health insurance that covers Covid). So...hopefully that is what will happen across all the cruise lines, but I don't blame you for being worried.  Personally, I'm in a wait and see mode.  There is no reason for me to rush out and go on a cruise until I'm confident that the industry has things under control and working right.  I wouldn't want to get stuck on a cruise to nowhere. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/celebrity-cruise-two-covid-positive-guests/index.html

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42 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

+2 (because I refuse to lower myself to a 1 - 1 comparison with that ilk).

Hi, yep.....there are too many posts I want to reply to but stop myself (about this subject). When I think about responding? I say to myself, no, no don't do it. I saw that one post and figured my +1 was enough to say I agreed with that answer. 

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8 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

They wouldn't have had to if the Epidemiologists and those fighting for election would have played by a set of rules across the board. I am thankful a Judge had to slap them back to reality. This is now precedence that the government cannot overstep its authority and to treat businesses equally. If the CDC had done things fairly and scientifically, the airlines, trains, and other mass transit systems would have been shutdown as well.


Are you comparing ocean cruises, aka floating resort cities, to transit systems?

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4 hours ago, CPT Trips said:


Are you comparing ocean cruises, aka floating resort cities, to transit systems?

I am comparing cruise ships to all other forms of leisure and hospitality systems. Cruise ships are no different than hotels, restaurants, planes, trains, etc. Not only am I comparing them, the Judge made it very clear in his ruling as well. 

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15 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

If the CDC had done things fairly and scientifically, the airlines, trains, and other mass transit systems would have been shutdown as well.

 

I have personally never used a cruise to transport me somewhere. To me it is more like a group tour than the train I would use to commute to work 🤔. Technically wouldn't that be a ferry rather than a cruise?

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3 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

I am comparing cruise ships to all other forms of leisure and hospitality systems. Cruise ships are no different than hotels, restaurants, planes, trains, etc. Not only am I comparing them, the Judge made it very clear in his ruling as well. 

Are you always able to leave a restaurant or a hotel? Can you always leave a ship, or is there a time the only way would be to jump overboard?

 

Are you on a plane for a week or even months at a time like a world cruise?

 

Comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges.

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17 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

If the CDC had done things fairly and scientifically, the airlines, trains, and other mass transit systems would have been shutdown as well.

Cruises are discretionary.  Mass transit is not.

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10 minutes ago, capriccio said:

Cruises are discretionary.  Mass transit is not.

Mass transit IS discretionary. There is not a single mode of transportation in this country that is mandatory. You can use a bike, personal car, walk, use a scooter, and the list can go on. What you are referring to is mass convenience for faster travel. That is a completely different discussion. I can understand you have the desire for that flight from NY to LA, but a flight is not necessary. You can take your personal car and drive there. It may be inconvenient, by flying is not necessary. People just don't want the inconvenience.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Mass transit IS discretionary. There is not a single mode of transportation in this country that is mandatory. You can use a bike, personal car, walk, use a scooter, and the list can go on. What you are referring to is mass convenience for faster travel. That is a completely different discussion. I can understand you have the desire for that flight from NY to LA, but a flight is not necessary. You can take your personal car and drive there. It may be inconvenient, by flying is not necessary. People just don't want the inconvenience.

 

 

You obviously don't live/have never lived in a large urban area and didn't have your job, stores for shopping, etc. right outside your front door.   Not everyone has a personal car.  Not everyone can ride a bike or use a scooter.  Not everyone can walk long distances.

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31 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Are you always able to leave a restaurant or a hotel? Can you always leave a ship, or is there a time the only way would be to jump overboard?

 

Are you on a plane for a week or even months at a time like a world cruise?

 

Comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges.

So you are telling me that exposure to covid is time based alone? Your logic is 100% flawed and this is the stupidity of an uneducated US. 

  1. Yes, you can leave a restaurant on land when ever you see fit. The same EXACT thing can be done on a cruise ship. There are doors to it, you sit down, you eat, you get up, and you leave. 
  2. Yes, you can leave your hotel room, the same exact way you can leave your cabin. You walk out the door and you are in a wide open area of the hotel. You walk out the exit doors of the hotel and you are in open air. The same exact thing happens going out to the pool deck or the outside walkway on a cruise ship.
  3. There is no need to leave a cruise ship. It is a floating city. It is no different than your own city, but on a smaller scale.
  4. Airplane, train, bus, or any other form of transportation does not give you immunity to covid. If you believe that you are an idiot. Covid is not a time based disease that you can only contract if you are in an area for more than 2 hours. You can contract covid in under 2 minutes regardless of where you air. 

It get ridiculous to try to even debate with uneducated people. That Bill Murry quote rings true even more. And to prove your own point against you, I would give you these criteria to see how true you are to your ridiculous argument. Under these conditions, would you fly in a plane for 5 hours. 

  • You have a 100% chance at death if you contract covid
  • Every seat on that plan that is so safe is filled with passengers that all have the covid virus.
  • No one is to wear a mask and you are sitting in the middle seat.

Are you going to get on that plane that is so safe if you had those conditions? The answer is no. The reason is you know that covid is transmitted on planes. I would be far more safe on a cruise ship with 9,000 people onboard with a 95% vaccination rate than any random airplane I get on.

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