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1 minute ago, cwayne said:

This study had over 52,000 people in that had had covid.  If I had had covid and gotten over it and my own body produced antibodies then I wouldn't get the vaccine and risk the side effects.  You get the vaccine to protect you from someone who is infected.  

 

Again, I don't understand who you are arguing with here. The CDC says vaccination is required. Celerity is complying with the CDC Conditional Sail order. You could write a strongly worded letter to the CDC, but I doubt anyone over there is reading these forums.

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2 hours ago, marylander2 said:

I am sorry this is not how I/we got booked for December Millie cruise... We did it through *****, and while the TA had asked me about the vaccination, it was not intended to be entered anywhere in the official docs, he JUST ASKED. I feel that this nonsense with embarkation being denied for those who are late to fill the 5% quota on pier is really silly. This is not even your Jacksonville-Atlanta local flight where you are on a standby and if you are not flying in the afternoon you could catch up the evening flight... How do you imagine families coming from Mannitoba to F-Ldl to sail on Millie and they are told "sorry, our quota for 5% of non-vaccinated if filled already"? Seriously?

Did you tell the agent you were vaccinated or that you weren’t ?   If you said no and were not intending to get  vaxxed they would have put you in the 5%. 


the problem may arise if some person/group said they were not vaxxed but intended to do before the cruise.  In that case they are now out of the 95% and into the 5% group.  If that is “full”. They may be out of luck. 
 

This  “solution “ is only applicable to cruises out of Florida.   The other itineraries such as Alaska out of Seattle will be the regular vaccine required for all eligible pax 

Things could change a lot before December. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, cwayne said:

This study had over 52,000 people in that had had covid.  If I had had covid and gotten over it and my own body produced antibodies then I wouldn't get the vaccine and risk the side effects.  You get the vaccine to protect you from someone who is infected.  I'm sure that things will be modified as it goes along.

This appears to be an article about this Cleveland Clinic study.

 

Cleveland Clinic Study: Natural Immunity as Effective as Vaccination | Newsmax.com

 

I found these couple of summation paragraphs to be interesting:

 

“What we don’t know is what’s the duration of protection? And also remember that our population of healthcare workers is younger in general, it’s healthier,” said Dr. Steve Gordon, of the Cleveland Clinic, one of the study authors. “We’re not saying don’t get the vaccine.”

 

Gordon pointed out that antibody response differs from person to person, so there is no way to accurately gauge someone’s immunity to COVID-19 based on previous infection. And infectious disease experts warn that natural immunity may not protect against the more aggressive variants emerging.

 

“Even though you’ve had COVID-19, it’s still very important for you to get the vaccine,” says Dr. Kristin Englund, an infectious disease expert, according to Health Essentials. “We know a small number of people can get COVID-19 a second time.”

 

Edited by Ken the cruiser
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5 minutes ago, cwayne said:

I'm not arguing with anybody, although you seem to be taking issue with my comments.

 

You seemed to be arguing with the mysterious "they". You did not define who "they" are.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

“What we don’t know is what’s the duration of protection? And also remember that our population of healthcare workers is younger in general, it’s healthier,” said Dr. Steve Gordon, of the Cleveland Clinic, one of the study authors. “We’re not saying don’t get the vaccine.”

 

Gordon pointed out that antibody response differs from person to person, so there is no way to accurately gauge someone’s immunity to COVID-19 based on previous infection. And infectious disease experts warn that natural immunity may not protect against the more aggressive variants emerging.

 

“Even though you’ve had COVID-19, it’s still very important for you to get the vaccine,” says Dr. Kristin Englund, an infectious disease expert, according to Health Essentials. “We know a small number of people can get COVID-19 a second time.”

 

Ken, these are very interesting points that should promote skepticism.

 

I would like to caution everyone to take the study at face value. It has not yet been peer-reviewed which is a very important process when trying to interpret scientific results. As a scientist, the following is concerning: 

 

Employees of the Cleveland Clinic Health System working in Ohio on Dec 16, 2020, the day COVID-19 vaccination was started, were included.

 

This is what we call a "convenience sample". We do not yet know how diverse this sample is in age, race, gender, etc. Presumably, if it is employees, then that excludes younger people and retired people, very important demographics. 

 

In short, as Ken pointed out in the quotes above, we don't know how long the immunity lasts and we also do not yet understand what population this really applies to. 

Edited by AbbyCruiser45
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Posted (edited)

I think there is a very easy solution to the Florida ban.  This is I what would put in Celebrity’s rules:

 

Celebrity cruises welcomes all passengers and vaccination is not required.

 

The following rules are in place on board as health precautions:

  1. Masks must be worn in all public areas at all times.  When eating, masks must be pulled down only to allow food to enter the mouth, and must be put back in place while chewing. 
  2. Dining and entertainment will be restricted to outdoor venues. 
  3. Passengers must present themselves to the ship’s medical officer at 5:00 a.m. daily for a COVID test.   This test will cost $500 per person per day, payable by the passenger.  Any passenger testing positive for COVID will be quarantined in the brig until the next port, where they will debark.  Repatriation is at the passenger’s expense. 
  4. No passengers will be permitted to debark the ship at ports, to protect the health of our destination populations, except in the case of rule #3 and the end of the cruise.
  5. Celebrity will provide an orange hat to all passengers, which will include a device sounding an alarm when less than 6 feet of distance is maintained with other passengers and crew.   This hat must be worn by all passengers at all times. 

 

The above rules apply to all passengers.

 

Children under 12, and passengers volunteering to show proof of full vaccination will be exempt from the above rules and will have full access to all ship venues and ports.

Edited by BrendaJ
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2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

I agree only so far. It is not a federal requirement to sail fully vaccinated. The cruise lines were given a choice. Celebrity made it, but that does not mean it is necessarily in compliance with state law. Mind you I FIRMLY believe that the Commerce Clause protects all of the cruise lines against this purported ban. You are right that it is the text of the law, not its “spirit”, that is important. But since when does that matter to a politician’s perspective, especially one so wedded to the legislation?  Maybe Celebrity worked something out with the state and got their blessing.  Who knows.  I don’t know if there will be objections now or later from Tallahassee, but based on recent history there very well could be. No one should be surprised if there is. Just saying. 

But at that particular moment they would need a test sailing first which would cancel that particular cruise.  There is currently no law that I know that states cruise lines cant sail with 95% vaccinated passengers at least not in Florida. So again, they would have to cancel the cruise. I'm pretty sure their lawyers have gone through the motions on this one.  If the law stated that cruise lines are required to do the CDC test cruise first before sailing out of any Florida port you might have an argument there. But since  they haven't done a test cruise, the only way they can sail is the 95% route.

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1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

 

You seemed to be arguing with the mysterious "they". You did not define who "they" are.

 

Seems very logical.  :classic_wink:

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1 minute ago, cscurlock said:

But at that particular moment they would need a test sailing first which would cancel that particular cruise.  There is currently no law that I know that states cruise lines cant sail with 95% vaccinated passengers at least not in Florida. So again, they would have to cancel the cruise. I'm pretty sure their lawyers have gone through the motions on this one.  If the law stated that cruise lines are required to do the CDC test cruise first before sailing out of any Florida port you might have an argument there. But since  they haven't done a test cruise, the only way they can sail is the 95% route.

Of course they have gone through the motions. They have had to finagle a way to do a vaccinated cruise from Florida that does not violate Florida law.  My only point is whether this is an acceptable route to the state. We will find out soon enough I suppose. 

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1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

 

You seemed to be arguing with the mysterious "they". You did not define who "they" are.

I'll throw in the proverbial "some experts believe....I've heard many say.....Many, many people think...."

 

They're all "mystery people and experts".

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, cwayne said:

How are they going to handle the people who can prove they've had covid and according to the Cleveland Clinic are just as immunized as people who have gotten the vaccine and do not derive any additional benefits from being vaccinated.  

That's BS. Our friend had COVID & was giving plasma...they let him know when his anti-bodies were gone (a few months). 

 

Edited by KKB
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1 hour ago, cwayne said:

This study had over 52,000 people in that had had covid.  If I had had covid and gotten over it and my own body produced antibodies then I wouldn't get the vaccine and risk the side effects.  You get the vaccine to protect you from someone who is infected.  I'm sure that things will be modified as it goes along.

Funny--we get flu, shingles, pneumonia shots w/o testing for antibodies.

I know plenty of people who have gotten COVID & gotten the vaccine.

I can see being cautious if one has recently had COVID to wait a few months to get the vaccine.

But we all must put off things we want to do due to illness, injury, etc. 

This is no different.

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Here is the wording on the Celebrity website updated yesterday, June 9th covering vaccination requirements from all US ports including Florida. There is nothing about recovered Covid passengers being exempt from the new protocols so it should assumed vaccinations will be required for them as well.

 

"Following CDC guidelines we will sail with all crew vaccinated and at least 95% of guests will be fully vaccinated.

All guests age 16 and above must be fully vaccinated (at least two weeks prior to sail date). As of August 1, 2021, all guests age 12 and older must be fully vaccinated.

Acceptable proof of vaccination must be in the form of the original vaccination record document issued by the country’s health authority or healthcare provider that administered the vaccination.

For Sailings from Florida–If you decline or are unable to show proof of vaccination at boarding, you will be treated as unvaccinated and you will be subject to additional costs, restrictions, and protocols that we will advise you of as soon as they have been determined".

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12 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

For Sailings from Florida–If you decline or are unable to show proof of vaccination at boarding, you will be treated as unvaccinated and you will be subject to additional costs, restrictions, and protocols that we will advise you of as soon as they have been determined".

 

This is interesting and suggests that they will not require you to be vaccinated but if you're not you're going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops. That would overcome the Florida law forbidding a vaccination requirement. However, it doesn't say how Celebrity is going to ensure that 95 percent of the guests are vaccinated. If they can't guarantee that, they would have to do test sailings.

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Just now, MarkWiltonM said:

 

This is interesting and suggests that they will not require you to be vaccinated but if you're not you're going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops. That would overcome the Florida law forbidding a vaccination requirement. However, it doesn't say how Celebrity is going to ensure that 95 percent of the guests are vaccinated. If they can't guarantee that, they would have to do test sailings.

They will probably take the first 5% from online check in. After than if you have not uploaded your vaccination information and try to check in it will not let you and tell you that the ship is full for unvaccinated passengers.  Probably an email will go out to all passengers who have not checked in and not submitted vaccination information saying the ship is full for people with unknown vaccination status on the 5% threshold has been met.

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2 hours ago, marieps said:

Cruise Critic took down the thread in which I believe you responded to my query about Canada's sluggish vax roll out.  Perhaps you can do it here.  Also, I accept in advance your sympathies for the events on Long Island last night.  Go VGK!!

C'mon, I barely remember what I ate for breakfast, let alone what I wrote in a post yesterday! ☹️Nevertheless, here's an abbreviated version of what I do remember.

 

IMO, the major problem has been backlogged shipments from manufacturers. Both Pfizer and Moderna have failed to meet their commitments, for a variety of reasons, but unlike other commodities, Canada couldn't simply turn to other manufacturers. 

 

One result was the decisions to delay second shots, following the UK example. Consequently, we have a decent number of people with 1 jab, but few with 2.

 

The good news is that Pfizer and Moderna have both started to play catch up, with large shipments finally coming our way. The result is that there's a noticeable uptick in the number of people getting 2nd shots of late, and people are increasingly able to book appointments earlier than their original ones. My sister, for example, received her 2nd shot last week, although her original appointment wasn't until mid-July. A big plus is that polls show a high percentage of Canadians want the vaccine, so our fully vaccinated numbers should eventually be very good.

 

I supported the Bruins, but we will be on opposite sides of the fence in the next round if you are getting behind the Golden Knights. Go Habs Go!

 

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1 hour ago, AbbyCruiser45 said:

Ken, these are very interesting points that should promote skepticism.

In short, as Ken pointed out in the quotes above, we don't know how long the immunity lasts and we also do not yet understand what population this really applies to. 

The "scientists" also have no idea how long the protection afforded by the vaccines lasts.  So the suggestion that because we have no information as to how long the immunity afforded by the disease lasts, you should take an unapproved vaccine as to which we also have no information as to how long the protection lasts, makes zero sense.

 

I agree that skepticism is  warranted, but I apply it to all of the issues involving Covid.

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11 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

They will probably take the first 5% from online check in. After than if you have not uploaded your vaccination information and try to check in it will not let you and tell you that the ship is full for unvaccinated passengers.  Probably an email will go out to all passengers who have not checked in and not submitted vaccination information saying the ship is full for people with unknown vaccination status on the 5% threshold has been met.

What they did on the Millennium sailing was at checkin (if you agreed to provide proof of vaccine) was they scanned your vaccine certificate and neg PCR test.   I would assume that would be loaded onto your seapass card. 

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2 hours ago, cwayne said:

They might want to look at this.  

If I tell you the two Celebrity cruises I’m on in 2022, will you promise to not be on board?!?

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24 minutes ago, MarkWiltonM said:

 

This is interesting and suggests that they will not require you to be vaccinated but if you're not you're going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops. That would overcome the Florida law forbidding a vaccination requirement. However, it doesn't say how Celebrity is going to ensure that 95 percent of the guests are vaccinated. If they can't guarantee that, they would have to do test sailings.

 

Minor quibble, but it sounds like they ARE requiring you to be vaccinated, it's the SHOWING paperwork part that is regulated by the Florida law.

 

So you will have to declare you are vaccinated to book, and then at the pier it's a voluntary showing of your paperwork.  Those that decline to show are treated as unvaccinated.

 

So can you lie and say you are vaccinated and get on the ship? yes. But is it technically "allowed"? no.  Is how I am reading it.

 

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Just now, UnorigionalName said:

 

Minor quibble, but it sounds like they ARE requiring you to be vaccinated, it's the SHOWING paperwork part that is regulated by the Florida law.

 

So you will have to declare you are vaccinated to book, and then at the pier it's a voluntary showing of your paperwork.  Those that decline to show are treated as unvaccinated.

 

So can you lie and say you are vaccinated and get on the ship? yes. But is it technically "allowed"? no.  Is how I am reading it.

 

Well, you can SAY you are vaccinated, but without PROOF you will be treated as unvaccinated.

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21 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

They will probably take the first 5% from online check in. After than if you have not uploaded your vaccination information and try to check in it will not let you and tell you that the ship is full for unvaccinated passengers.  Probably an email will go out to all passengers who have not checked in and not submitted vaccination information saying the ship is full for people with unknown vaccination status on the 5% threshold has been met.

Until they know how many proven-vaccinated passengers are sailing, they will not be able to know how many people the "5%" is.  

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4 minutes ago, Mike45LC said:

The "scientists" also have no idea how long the protection afforded by the vaccines lasts.  So the suggestion that because we have no information as to how long the immunity afforded by the disease lasts, you should take an unapproved vaccine as to which we also have no information as to how long the protection lasts, makes zero sense.

 

I agree that skepticism is  warranted, but I apply it to all of the issues involving Covid.

The vaccine is not unapproved (though I understand that you mean it is only approved for emergency use, that is just misleading) and it’s been rigorously studied. Even though the vaccine for covid is new (because the virus is new), the technology it is based on has been studied for years. 


We know that the vaccine induced immune response lasts far longer than the natural response. This is because the degree of infection (mild vs severe) will produce different immune response. Therefore, it does in fact make sense to get the vaccine because the naturally produced immune response is incredibly variable based on the individual. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Mike45LC said:

The "scientists" also have no idea how long the protection afforded by the vaccines lasts.  So the suggestion that because we have no information as to how long the immunity afforded by the disease lasts, you should take an unapproved vaccine as to which we also have no information as to how long the protection lasts, makes zero sense.

 

I agree that skepticism is  warranted, but I apply it to all of the issues involving Covid.

The difference is that immunity from the vaccine is being tracked in a two year clinical study where the exact date and type of dose is known.

 

The studies looking at natural immunity is far less exact.

 

Studies also show that the level and breadth of antibody response is better with vaccines (pfizer, moderna) showing good levels of protection against all strains. Studies indicate that natural infection from some strains do not provide good protection against other strains.

 

They do know that is lasts atleast 6 months and will lock down the time period when sufficient time passes.

 

The only difference in requirements between full approval and the EUA is that the FDA wanted 6 months of data for full approval. Both pfizer and Moderna now have that and gave filed for full approval.

Edited by nocl
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