New, as of June 17, US Rules--especially Florida!

[kibutzer]

14 hours ago, iamaqt2 said:

The best part is that these folks will be readily identifiable.  And will most likely be treated as unwelcome by the other passengers.  Not a pleasant vacation experience IMO.  

If I were unvaccinated I'd definitely think twice about booking a cruise.  

Especially if masking is required even on the Lido deck.

No they won't,  who is going to question them. Like our state no wears a mask even though less than half of population has been vaccinated 

[graphicguy]

14 hours ago, cruisingator2 said:

Other than the Adventure live thread on the RCI, I avoid that board. It’s truly eye opening. I stopped reading it about two weeks ago. 

I still stick my toes in the Royal thread waters on occasion, as I’m looking for cruises late this year, and next year.  Agree….they’re eye openers.  Royal used to have some of the nicest people who posted.  And, when I cruised Royal, they had some of the nicest passengers I encountered.

 

Looks like that’s changed pretty dramatically over the last several years.  I used to enjoyed Royal.  Not sure what has caused the downslide.

Edited June 18, 2021 by graphicguy

[graphicguy]

12 hours ago, cruisingator2 said:

The CDC will shut them down if found to be skirting the rules. No way will they take the chance. We were asked when booking if we were vaccinated and if we would present the necessary proof at check in. We were placed in the vaccinated category. My Celebrity TA stated that the cruise line will be reaching out to anyone booking through the website to ask the same questions. I assume that Celebrity will handle internally those who do not make the five percent cut.  

My TA was the same.  She asked my vaccine status.  Actually, I told her I was fully vaccinated when we were discussing cruises to take when all my NCL cruises were cancelled.  So, I volunteered the info.

 

She said she was told by Celebrity the same thing.  A minimum of 95% of passengers sailing on the 7/31 Edge will be vaccinated.  She’s the one who said she thought they’d be sailing with way more than 95%.  And, if you got to the pier and either didn’t have a vaccine card, or did not offer to show it, you would be considered unvaccinated.  As such, they wouldn’t have to tell anyone the unvaccinated group was overbooked.  But, if the 5% was overbooked, they would get a refund on their fare.

 

Still, that means you would be out your transport costs, which could be sizable if you flew into the port and stayed the night previous to embarkation.

[Cruising89143]

Article this morning from Seatrade. I’m betting that sadly it will fall on deaf ears. 
 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/environmental-health/eastern-caribbean-heads-back-plea-desantis-allow-cruise-vaccine-passports

[harkinmr]

14 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

But it's my understanding that CDC has set a lower threshold than that at which a ship would have to terminate its voyage and return to its home port...

They have. And to date that has not changed. I’ve seen references to 1% of crew or 1.5% of passengers infected mentioned and at that point everyone is quarantined and the ship returns to port.  We’ll see if it changes.  Even if a threshold is not achieved, folks need to keep in mind that it won’t be just those who test positive who will be impacted if infections are found on board. Just like on Millennium there will be contact tracing done and anybody designated in that group (vaccinated or not) will be quarantined. 

[harkinmr]

51 minutes ago, kibutzer said:

No they won't,  who is going to question them. Like our state no wears a mask even though less than half of population has been vaccinated 

Do you honestly believe that if there is a mask requirement on sailings out of the US that it won’t be enforced?  Cruise lines continued authorization to sail relies on it.  Just because Texas is full of non-masked unvaccinated people does not mean a cruise ship will be. 

[harkinmr]

13 hours ago, AtlantaCruiser72 said:

I read/interpret Celebrity's guidance for Florida based departures differently.  I read it as NOT applying the 95/5 rule to Florida departures as it does not address meeting a threshold of unvaccinated guests, nor does there appear to be a denied boarding policy if the 5% threshold is exceeded, nor does it require those wishing to cruise w/o a vaccine to apply pre-departure for an exemption (As Carnival is doing) to qualify for the 5% threshold.  I instead reading it as ANYONE wishing to sail unvaccinated may do so if they agree to comply with additional rules/restrictions as a result.  

The 95/5 rule has to be applied to Florida sailings or they will have to do test cruises. That is not happening. No one unvaccinated beyond the 5% cap will be able to board. The legal gymnastics that took place to get around the FL law was done to specifically comply with the CDC option for vaccinated sailings. 

[urlaub]

15 hours ago, MBN33025 said:

I just wonder how unvaccinated folks will be “marked” so that the restrictions can be enforced. Wristbands? Different colored sea pass? A scarlet letter? A sash emblazoning “unclean” across their chest??
 

I would much prefer cruising with a fully vaccinated population and see enforcement as potentially problematic.

These are *** methods! I also wish fully vaccinated cruises

[ipeeinthepool]

45 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I still stick my toes in the Royal thread waters on occasion, as I’m looking for cruises late this year, and next year.  Agree….they’re eye openers.  Royal used to have some of the nicest people who posted.  And, when I cruised Royal, they had some of the nicest passengers I encountered.

 

Looks like that’s changed pretty dramatically over the last several years.  I used to enjoyed Royal.  Not sure what has caused the downslide.

 All of the people you liked on Royal have come over to Celebrity. 😉

[TeeRick]

22 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

Article this morning from Seatrade. I’m betting that sadly it will fall on deaf ears. 
 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/environmental-health/eastern-caribbean-heads-back-plea-desantis-allow-cruise-vaccine-passports

Unfortunately none of the citizens on these Caribbean island nations can vote in FL elections.  That is the only thing the governor cares about.  Sadly not the humanitarian pleas from the leaders of these nations.  

[Team Stag]

This is a hot topic so I'm hesitant to offer a different perspective.  

First, we don't fully KNOW how Celebrity is managing the 5% unvaxed.  It may just be a CYA and place for children / those who can't get medically vaxed.  I would assume, if you are booking with unvaxed kids or have a medical reason you can't get the vaccine; you are on the phone with Celebrity having a conversation at booking vs waiting until day of.  Also, they may be trying to sail with much less that 5% internally.  For all we know the conversations of Celebrity reps reaching out may go like this:  X Rep "Hello, I'm calling to see if you are willing to voluntarily present your vax card at check in for your cruise 2 weeks?".  Passenger - "Per the law, I am not required to show it & I will exercise that right."  Celebrity rep (regards of how many nonvaxed on the list at that time) "Ok.  We understand the law and respect that.  At this time, we are currently at our 5% non vaxed threshold.  I can process a refund for you or your may come to board however there is no guarantee we will have a cancellation.  At that time, we will process a refund for the cruise but will not reimburse any travel expenses.  Also keep in mind unvaccinated travelers will be require to test, mask, {insert all the miserable stuff here}"  Boom.  Done.  And now, the crew only has to worry about kids and handful of medical exceptions vs. a full 5% of unvaxed passengers.  

Second, there is a lot of assumption here that a non-vaxed passenger immediately will get Covid and spread it throughout the ship.  Only 44.5% of America is fully vaxed.  If that is the case, we would have 165 Million cases of Covid in the U.S..  While a cruise ship is close quarters, similarities can be drawn to theme parks / hotels, Vegas, Music festivals / concerts, sports stadiums.  All which are restarting currently.  In fact, Universal announced they are going to full occupancy which means Disney & other parks will too (even if they don't formally announce it).  This is not taking into account the natural immunity people who have had Covid in the past may have as well.  Personally, I am more concerned about being expose to Sar-CoV-2 in the ports than I am on cruise ship.

Sticking with the theme of what we actually KNOW, for all the comments regarding Florida / DeSantis. I will remind you - none of us are "in the room where it happens".  We don't truly know what is being said between the Florida government & the Cruiseline executives.  All of these comments are being based off what is read in the media or conjecture.  DeSantis loves the cruise industry.  He is taking the CDC to court on their behalf.  The Cruise industry loves Florida - the ports, the infrastructure, the tax breaks etc.  While in the media, he has said his new law applies to EVERYONE - we have not seen a reported case of it applying to the Cruise Industry.  No Fines have been placed; no lawsuits have happened yet.  This whole vaccine passport / require to show vaccine proof is a slippery slope and major issue that they are looking at longterm just past this current pandemic.  Even Biden and the federal government have stayed away from it as well because they recognize the potential for abuse in the future.

I think we all agree that the cruise industry wants to get back on the water.  A cruise that has to be canceled due to an outbreak will set back this industry months.  They are going to err on the side of caution vs being worried about the feelings / comments of the 5% unvaxed who may get their vacations canceled.

My final 2 thoughts - 1) The last thing Celebrity wants is to be policing mask wearing by the "5%".  As someone who has a bunch of friends who work at Disney; I can tell you - the most miserable part of their job this year has been enforcing and remind guests to wear their masks / fix their masks.  It will hurt crew morale if they are busy having to deal with the "5%" trying to skirt the mask rule.  2) If you plan on cruising this year, make sure the first things you pack are flexibility and patience.  

[Oceangoer2]

15 hours ago, Stick93 said:

Separating and identifying people who are “less desirable”

They are NOT less desirable....they are not meeting the  'requirement' for safer sailing.  Let's not make this into something the way other threads seem to go.

[TeeRick]

6 minutes ago, Team Stag said:

This is a hot topic so I'm hesitant to offer a different perspective.  

First, we don't fully KNOW how Celebrity is managing the 5% unvaxed.  It may just be a CYA and place for children / those who can't get medically vaxed.  I would assume, if you are booking with unvaxed kids or have a medical reason you can't get the vaccine; you are on the phone with Celebrity having a conversation at booking vs waiting until day of.  Also, they may be trying to sail with much less that 5% internally.  For all we know the conversations of Celebrity reps reaching out may go like this:  X Rep "Hello, I'm calling to see if you are willing to voluntarily present your vax card at check in for your cruise 2 weeks?".  Passenger - "Per the law, I am not required to show it & I will exercise that right."  Celebrity rep (regards of how many nonvaxed on the list at that time) "Ok.  We understand the law and respect that.  At this time, we are currently at our 5% non vaxed threshold.  I can process a refund for you or your may come to board however there is no guarantee we will have a cancellation.  At that time, we will process a refund for the cruise but will not reimburse any travel expenses.  Also keep in mind unvaccinated travelers will be require to test, mask, {insert all the miserable stuff here}"  Boom.  Done.  And now, the crew only has to worry about kids and handful of medical exceptions vs. a full 5% of unvaxed passengers.  

Second, there is a lot of assumption here that a non-vaxed passenger immediately will get Covid and spread it throughout the ship.  Only 44.5% of America is fully vaxed.  If that is the case, we would have 165 Million cases of Covid in the U.S..  While a cruise ship is close quarters, similarities can be drawn to theme parks / hotels, Vegas, Music festivals / concerts, sports stadiums.  All which are restarting currently.  In fact, Universal announced they are going to full occupancy which means Disney & other parks will too (even if they don't formally announce it).  This is not taking into account the natural immunity people who have had Covid in the past may have as well.  Personally, I am more concerned about being expose to Sar-CoV-2 in the ports than I am on cruise ship.

Sticking with the theme of what we actually KNOW, for all the comments regarding Florida / DeSantis. I will remind you - none of us are "in the room where it happens".  We don't truly know what is being said between the Florida government & the Cruiseline executives.  All of these comments are being based off what is read in the media or conjecture.  DeSantis loves the cruise industry.  He is taking the CDC to court on their behalf.  The Cruise industry loves Florida - the ports, the infrastructure, the tax breaks etc.  While in the media, he has said his new law applies to EVERYONE - we have not seen a reported case of it applying to the Cruise Industry.  No Fines have been placed; no lawsuits have happened yet.  This whole vaccine passport / require to show vaccine proof is a slippery slope and major issue that they are looking at longterm just past this current pandemic.  Even Biden and the federal government have stayed away from it as well because they recognize the potential for abuse in the future.

I think we all agree that the cruise industry wants to get back on the water.  A cruise that has to be canceled due to an outbreak will set back this industry months.  They are going to err on the side of caution vs being worried about the feelings / comments of the 5% unvaxed who may get their vacations canceled.

My final 2 thoughts - 1) The last thing Celebrity wants is to be policing mask wearing by the "5%".  As someone who has a bunch of friends who work at Disney; I can tell you - the most miserable part of their job this year has been enforcing and remind guests to wear their masks / fix their masks.  It will hurt crew morale if they are busy having to deal with the "5%" trying to skirt the mask rule.  2) If you plan on cruising this year, make sure the first things you pack are flexibility and patience.  

Any rational perspective here on CC is always appreciated by most.  Thank you!

[Oceangoer2]

Just now, TeeRick said:

rational perspective

key word...."rational"...too easy to get off track when anonymous.

[TeeRick]

Just now, Oceangoer2 said:

key word...."rational"...too easy to get off track when anonymous.

Yeah and "rational" is in the eye of the beholder too.  But I appreciate well worded and civil posts even if I do not agree with some of the content.  I'm sure lots of people don't always agree with me either.  😀

[3Shelaghs]

24 minutes ago, Team Stag said:

 

Well said!

I wonder what cruise lines will do for pax who have cruise booked with the Lift and Shift from March 2020? I too am not afraid of contracting Covid, but am worried about a fully paid cruise being turned back and ports denied due to outbreak. I know hundreds of cruisers who will now stop spending their money with this rule in place! Hopefully the cruise industry is listening.

[johnbob7]

15 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Right -- so if 5% of passengers got COVID, you couldn't just isolate them and continue, which seemed to be what the other poster was suggesting.

You are correct, I did suggest that. I would still suggest that if they start to detect positive cases the have the capability to quickly isolate any affected. You are unlikely to get all 5% suddenly positive at the same time. I still maintain Celebrity is well positioned to avoid an outbreak significant enough to trigger cruise termination.

[graphicguy]

Looking the NYT daily vaccine stats, this a.m. showed 65% of the total adult U.S. population that has at least one dose of the vaccine (which also includes the J&J one dose only for fully vaccinated).  55% of total adults have had both doses administered.

 

Adults being 18 and over.

 

The rest of the population, which consists of infants, pre-teens, tweens, comes in at 53% with one dose and 44% with two doses.

 

Those numbers, while relevant, are not as important given infants are not yet cleared for the vaccine.

 

15% of the U.S. population has previously cruised.  7%-8% have cruised in the last 3 years, according to the CLIA  (assuming those last numbers coincide to most who post here, and probably make up nearly all the folks looking to cruise in the next 90 days.

 

Given the average age of anyone who cruises is 50 years old, the total vaccination rate runs about 80%-90%.

 

Some extrapolation......

 

-Given the cruises in the next 90 days out of U.S. ports are going to be reduced capacity and making an assumption that capacity is approx 1,000/ship (as most of the cruises are on the cruise lines' largest ships) based on the majority being 50 and above, we're talking 100-200 passengers who want to cruise, but have no vaccinations.

 

Let's say 75% of those drop out of wanting to cruise because they don't want to pay extra for enhanced testing and don't want to be segregated or wear masks, now we're talking about 25 to 50 passengers who aren't vaccinated, but who want to cruise regardless of any additional charges, segregations and mask protocols .  

 

The magic percentage is......voila.....5% who could cruise without having a vaccine, or who won't provide proof of a vaccine.

 

Just a little exercise, not sure how valid it is.

 

 

[kirtihk]

15 hours ago, basenji56 said:

I agree.  I doubt they would feel safe enough to cruise. But who the heck knows?  I have chosen to believe in the vaccine.  My concern is getting lost at sea because the unvaccinated got sick.

Actually, that (getting lost at sea on a cruise ship) is my dream came true - it happened on my South Pacific Easter Island - Tahiti March 8-24, 2020 cruise on Ponant Le Soleal.  That was a perfect lost getting cruise!

[marieps]

12 hours ago, jelayne said:

Your insurance may be different but ours will not pay for a test unless we are exhibiting symptoms.

I think I'm lucky in that my insurance is self-funded by the company from which I retired.  The benefits administrator is on record that they will pay for any test any time.  Have taken advantage of the policy only once.  

[3Shelaghs]

Segregating unvaxed pax in a theatre, is a Petri dish in the making. All it takes is one person with the Delta variant, and boom two days later that one becomes many. Are there enough medical staff onboard to cope with this? Here in Canada, our lock downs were to decrease the surge on the hospitals. How big is the medical unit onboard??

[marieps]

14 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Looking the NYT daily vaccine stats, this a.m. showed 65% of the total adult U.S. population that has at least one dose of the vaccine (which also includes the J&J one dose only for fully vaccinated).  55% of total adults have had both doses administered.

 

Adults being 18 and over.

 

The rest of the population, which consists of infants, pre-teens, tweens, comes in at 53% with one dose and 44% with two doses.

 

Those numbers, while relevant, are not as important given infants are not yet cleared for the vaccine.

 

15% of the U.S. population has previously cruised.  7%-8% have cruised in the last 3 years, according to the CLIA  (assuming those last numbers coincide to most who post here, and probably make up nearly all the folks looking to cruise in the next 90 days.

 

Given the average age of anyone who cruises is 50 years old, the total vaccination rate runs about 80%-90%.

 

Some extrapolation......

 

-Given the cruises in the next 90 days out of U.S. ports are going to be reduced capacity and making an assumption that capacity is approx 1,000/ship (as most of the cruises are on the cruise lines' largest ships) based on the majority being 50 and above, we're talking 100-200 passengers who want to cruise, but have no vaccinations.

 

Let's say 75% of those drop out of wanting to cruise because they don't want to pay extra for enhanced testing and don't want to be segregated or wear masks, now we're talking about 25 to 50 passengers who aren't vaccinated, but who want to cruise regardless of any additional charges, segregations and mask protocols .  

 

The magic percentage is......voila.....5% who could cruise without having a vaccine, or who won't provide proof of a vaccine.

 

Just a little exercise, not sure how valid it is.

 

 

You should change your handle to math guy...or at least provide graphics.  A very interesting post.

[graphicguy]

3 minutes ago, marieps said:

You should change your handle to math guy...or at least provide graphics.  A very interesting post.

LOL!  Maybe do a spread sheet with pie charts attached.

[Stick93]

1 hour ago, Oceangoer2 said:

They are NOT less desirable....they are not meeting the  'requirement' for safer sailing.  Let's not make this into something the way other threads seem to go.

I am not making into anything else than the danger it’s presenting. 

Wait until the first person get hurt from the rhetoric. I know it’s not intentional and “we could all die from these people”??

 

Could you just answer one question - if we can all die from the unvaccinated- why did we put the vaccine in our bodies. The logic dictates that we did it to be safe. If you don’t believe that you are safe then you there is no science to this vaccine and it will not save anyone. If we trusted the science to get a shot, trust it to keep you safe. 

 

 

[graphicguy]

8 minutes ago, 3Shelaghs said:

Segregating unvaxed pax in a theatre, is a Petri dish in the making. All it takes is one person with the Delta variant, and boom two days later that one becomes many. Are there enough medical staff onboard to cope with this? Here in Canada, our lock downs were to decrease the surge on the hospitals. How big is the medical unit onboard??

I think that's the purpose of the additional and enhanced testing protocols......to keep that from happening.

 

I just wish they'd go ahead and declare the ship to be totally vaccinated and save themselves, and the passengers, all of these contortions.  If FL wants to make a stink, let them.  Fight it out in court and let us know how it ends up 3-4 years from now after no one cares anymore.