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Florida vs. CDC


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16 minutes ago, Ivy86 said:

Yes cruises from Seattle may be cancel now .. let’s see how this  plays out .. it’s frustrating 


Literally speaking, yes,  the legislation allowing US to bypass Canada is likely effected by today’s ruling. The legislation refers to the COnditions to sail order, and if there is no longer an order, no deal. It’s a technicality.

 

With that said, I believe all 3 branches can punch new legislation through to reflect today’s changes. They need to get busy if the August 7th cruise from Seattle is a go, but I do believe it can be done. An example of how fast we can move with bipartisan politics. 
 

 

 

 

 

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It really doesn't matter if Florida is doing great or not because the rest of the country isn't when it comes to the non-vaccinated. Some parts of the US may actually be seeing another wave. So you bring in people from all over the country who are not vaccinated put them on a ship and with the new Delta variant being more contagious it is going to spread. All it will take is one ship to have more cases than it can handle and it's over.

The big problem I have is that Florida doesn't want the CDC to dictate the rule but they have no problem setting their rule about not asking about vaccines. If enough people want 100% vaccinated cruises then let it happen. The cruise line will change the rules when the demand goes low enough that they can't get enough people on the ship. Anybody who doesn't believe that a 100% vaccinated cruise is much safer has their head in the Florida sand.  

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12 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

The implicit assumption of this statement is that, absent a regulatory requirement, the cruise lines will have no incentive to prevent disease onboard, which is both presumptuous and offensive.

Yeah, just like, even with a regulatory requirement, the cruise lines do everything in their power to abide by and enforce environmental compliance, to keep from having adverse publicity.  It's offensive to me to believe that companies will abide by regulations that benefit others, but that cost them money will actually abide by those regulations, and not actually spend money to avoid them.

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12 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The entire disclosure can be found here. I haven’t sifted thru it yet, but I think this is a solid win for Florida. Yes, the injunction is temporary, but the new standards are jus a suggestion.
 

If cruise lines are not required to report out positive cases, no chance of the Petri dish label. Thats a major long term gain imo. Hallelujah 

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/512299252/Florida-vs-CDC#from_embed

 

 Next question- how many times is the CDC going to court lol 

Just did a quick scroll through the ruling and I see several areas that would lead to appeal and overturn.  First, the judge acknowledges the federal government's and the CDC's authority to issue "free pratique" and to inspect and detain any and all ships wishing to enter US waters, and to set requirements for issuance of "free pratique".  Then he says that any future requirements regarding covid would be "non-binding".  Which is it, your honor, do they have the authority to issue regulations that are binding, or not?  While he may, in parts of the ruling I haven't read, point out what in the CSO is not in the CDC's authority, and parts of it may not be warranted, here he waffles on whether the whole concept of public health regulation can be overridden by a state, and whether the concept of "free pratique" is legal.  He also claims that the provisions of the CSO are burdensome, specifically calling out the requirement for testing labs, and vaccinations.   Not sure who the vaccination requirement is burdensome on, in this case, the state or the cruise lines?  As for testing labs, cruise lines have been building ships and purchasing specialty equipment for the food service, laundry, medical, child care, pools, and most of all the hotel operations, for decades, yet that is not burdensome on them?

 

I know my viewpoint is not popular, but I don't really care, I want to see a safe cruising industry, and removing any government oversight is always a bad thing when it comes to big business.

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27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yeah, just like, even with a regulatory requirement, the cruise lines do everything in their power to abide by and enforce environmental compliance, to keep from having adverse publicity.  It's offensive to me to believe that companies will abide by regulations that benefit others, but that cost them money will actually abide by those regulations, and not actually spend money to avoid them.

 

I agree with your premise but in this case I think it's in the economic best interest of the cruise lines to keep their ships free of any large Covid outbreaks.  I think it's in the cruise lines best interests to follow most of the CDC guidelines.

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Choice. It is about choice. If you want to go on a vaccinated cruise, you will be able to. If you are not vaccinated and want to cruise you will be able to. If you want to stay home you will be able to. 
 

it is between you and the cruise lines. A govt bureaucracy should not decide who gets to cruise and who doesn’t. 
 

That is what this has always been about. 

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9 hours ago, jcu1210 said:

So let's have a fully vaccinated cruise, go NCL!

 

Exactly. 

I have no idea why people are celebrating the "exciting" prospect of mask wearing cruising.

On other threads the overwhelming consensus is people do not want to cruise with masks 🤔

 

I'm now 14 days from my first post pandemic cruise, it's unvaccinated, no ordering drinks at the bar, masks on the sundeck when moving around, social distancing everywhere. This is the reality.

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2 hours ago, KennyFla said:

Choice. It is about choice. If you want to go on a vaccinated cruise, you will be able to. If you are not vaccinated and want to cruise you will be able to. If you want to stay home you will be able to. 
 

it is between you and the cruise lines. A govt bureaucracy should not decide who gets to cruise and who doesn’t. 
 

Wrong.  When public health is at risk,  your normal freedoms rightly go out the window.  The greater good of society at large overrides everything else.   

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24 minutes ago, Junonia said:

I’m sorry. What do you find conspiratorial about Cuomo policies being responsible for a great many nursing home deaths? It is a well-known fact that even ABC is reporting now. Did you also believe that Covid came from bat soup and anything to the contrary was blasphemy? 🙄 As long as it wasn’t your parent or grandparent, it’s a big joke to you it seems. People wake up when the truth affects them personally.

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What does Cuomo and nursing home liability have to do with the cruise industry? It has no impact. Let’s try to keep this thread at least somewhat on track.

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Many of the assumptions about potential dangers of cruising are based on the situation in March 2020, where almost the whole population was vulnerable to Covid. That is no longer the case because there's so much immunity in the population now. 

 

Why do even the most restrictive states allow full opening now? Because they know that there is enough immunity in the population to make exponential spread a virtual mathematical impossibility.  This is the same situation on land or on a ship. People's respiratory systems and immune responses do not magically change once they embark a ship.

 

If you are fully vaccinated, the likelihood of you getting sick from covid is very low. If you do get sick (again, unlikely), you will likely experience very mild symptoms. Is this risk really so serious that cruising should be prohibited? As a vaccinated person, do you need to know your fellow cruisers measles vax stats, flu, hepatitis? Not really because YOU are vaccinated. You have protection from these bugs, so you don't need to worry, that's the bottom line and why we do vaccinations. (The public health component includes things like not overwhelming health care systems and creating herd immunity for the people who are unable to take the vaccine.)

 

None of this makes any sense to me -- there were people in March 2020 who were unafraid to go on a cruise and there are people in June 2021, who are fully vaccinated against covid, who are too afraid. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Many of the assumptions about potential dangers of cruising are based on the situation in March 2020, where almost the whole population was vulnerable to Covid. That is no longer the case because there's so much immunity in the population now. 

 

Why do even the most restrictive states allow full opening now? Because they know that there is enough immunity in the population to make exponential spread a virtual mathematical impossibility.  This is the same situation on land or on a ship. People's respiratory systems and immune responses do not magically change once they embark a ship.

 

 

Would you agree that the UK have very high vaccination numbers?  The infection rate of the Delta variant is running wild over there despite the high number of people who are vaccinated or have immunity following a previous infection.  This is far from a "virtual mathematical impossibility."

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3 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

None of this makes any sense to me -- there were people in March 2020 who were unafraid to go on a cruise and there are people in June 2021, who are fully vaccinated against covid, who are too afraid. 

 

 

 

Vaccinated people are not afraid to cruise due to COVID.  Vaccinated people don't want to spend a bunch of money and have to wear masks.  They don't want to have limited access to ship board activities/bars/restaurants/shows or ports of call.  They don't want to socially distance.  A 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates those negatives.

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Just now, SpainAlien said:

Would you agree that the UK have very high vaccination numbers?  The infection rate of the Delta variant is running wild over there despite the high number of people who are vaccinated or have immunity following a previous infection.  This is far from a "virtual mathematical impossibility."

Actually, no, I wouldn't. The UK vaccine strategy I believe was to get everyone a first jab, and then do a second later. So, most people are not fully immunized.  And they used a lot of AstraZeneca, which is a different vaccine than many Americans have taken and will take.

 

Covid is going to be with us for a long time, in some form. Generally, in a population, a virus mutates ("variants"), some are worse, some are less severe -- the ones that tend to win, over many years, are the less deadly variants because if a virus kills a host it can't reproduce itself. There are still viral remnants of the Spanish Flu in the population. If you are hoping for a covid free world, I'm sorry, but I don't think you are going to get one. Somehow, we need to figure out how to go from there.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, WarfRatWA said:

Vaccinated people are not afraid to cruise due to COVID.  Vaccinated people don't want to spend a bunch of money and have to wear masks.  They don't want to have limited access to ship board activities/bars/restaurants/shows or ports of call.  They don't want to socially distance.  A 100% vaccinated cruise mitigates those negatives.

Yes, I get that. I wouldn't want that either, but that's unnecessary anyway, for you, if you are vaccinated. The requirement to wear masks if you are fully vaccinated is not a reasonable one, imo.

 

ETA: And I'm not sure I agree that vaccinated people are not afraid to cruise because of covid. I've seen plenty of "It's only 95% effective!", "There could be an outbreak on a ship!" type posts.

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1 minute ago, macandlucy said:

Yes, I get that. I wouldn't want that either, but that's unnecessary anyway, for you, if you are vaccinated. The requirement to wear masks if you are fully vaccinated is not a reasonable one, imo.

The only way we achieve what we want is a 100% vaccinated cruise.  

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Just now, WarfRatWA said:

The only way we achieve what we want is a 100% vaccinated cruise.  

Perhaps, until people come to their senses. 

 

I am an optimist, so I think they will, and the unreasonable fear will slowly dissolve. I just hope it doesn't take too long.

 

 

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Just now, macandlucy said:

Perhaps, until people come to their senses. 

 

I am an optimist, so I think they will, and the unreasonable fear will slowly dissolve. I just hope it doesn't take too long.

 

 

I don't want to cruise with people that are not vaccinated (fear has nothing to do with it, so quit trying to paint us with that brush), your opinion notwithstanding.

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1 minute ago, WarfRatWA said:

I don't want to cruise with people that are not vaccinated (fear has nothing to do with it, so quit trying to paint us with that brush), your opinion notwithstanding.

Would you sail on a ship that has both no vaccine requirement and no requirement for masks and social distancing?  

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45 minutes ago, Murph269 said:

What does Cuomo and nursing home liability have to do with the cruise industry? It has no impact. Let’s try to keep this thread at least somewhat on track.

I can see how you would say that, but we were talking about how Florida was doing and the real estate market came up. So we veered off topic however, it is still somewhat on topic. In the past, when people were harmed due to “Covid gone wild” (Cuomo policy) there was no vaccine. Now there is a vaccine so I am trying to figure out why the vaccinated are concerned about contracting Covid. Obviously there have been breakthrough cases and nobody wants to be on a quarantined ship. It may surprise you to learn that there are  medications that can squash Covid in most people in 24 hours. I will bet you anything that the ships pharmacy will be well stocked with both of them. Case in point, I had a friend this week with Covid and had her call her Dr for an Rx. By the next morning, she was well on her way to recovery. 36 hours later, she was feeling like her old self. Incidentally, she contracted the virus from a friend who she sat and had coffee with for an hour last week.  I contend that you are at just as much risk flying in an enclosed metal tube with passengers carrying everything from Covid to chickenpox as you are cruising.

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30 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

Actually, no, I wouldn't. The UK vaccine strategy I believe was to get everyone a first jab, and then do a second later. So, most people are not fully immunized.  And they used a lot of AstraZeneca, which is a different vaccine than many Americans have taken and will take.

 

Covid is going to be with us for a long time, in some form. Generally, in a population, a virus mutates ("variants"), some are worse, some are less severe -- the ones that tend to win, over many years, are the less deadly variants because if a virus kills a host it can't reproduce itself. There are still viral remnants of the Spanish Flu in the population. If you are hoping for a covid free world, I'm sorry, but I don't think you are going to get one. Somehow, we need to figure out how to go from there.

Yes the UK used Astra Zeneca which is a different type of vaccine to what most Americans have received however it is still highly effective and whilst only 47% have been fully vaccinated, 64% of the population have received at least one dose. Then if you factor in those people who have previously had Covid19 and therefore have natural immunity there is pretty good coverage over the population as a whole but still the infection rate is growing very quickly.  The UK have the best vaccination rate in Europe but currently the worst infection rate.

 

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I selfishly hope this doesn't impact our Alaska cruise and the rest of the Alaska season. I don't trust politicians to do the easy thing in a timely manner if that law becomes null in void due to the court decision. 

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The upshot is that we have to develop over the counter medicines to combat Covid19 like we do with cold and flu viruses. It has to eventually just become a virus which part of life. 

 

Would I cruise on an unvaccinated ship, yes but would I be comfortable at the moment if that ship had a no mask/social distance policy ? No, mostly because I don't want to be stuck in quarantine 

 

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