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Florida wins so Carnival can sail with kids


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6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If anyone believes that the cruise lines will give any more than lip service to "vaccinated cruises" after this ruling, you're living in an alternate reality.  They will go with voluntary statements regarding vaccination, and hope nothing happens.  As they always have.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding! Internet winner of the day! 

 

The real question is, do they have the chutzpah to think they can control the outcome of such a wayward virus on their ships with mere hope? A daunting task to be sure. Transitioning from the present calculated risk position to flat out gambling and hoping for the best, might not be the best course for longevity and continuity.      

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18 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

You just described the militant right

If you listen to them, they are not that far apart.  Same words, different order.

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3 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

And what are you going to say when they come in properly prepared next time.  The science exists, I know you won't believe it, but it is available.  The CDC has references on it's website and I have heard it discussed during the vaccine recommendation meetings,  I have also independently found it online. I have no idea why those attorneys were not better prepared, but I have seen that happen before.  But I also agree that this will be their third pitch, if they miss, they are out. 

 

The science and updated data about the virus is available, but I have doubts that the CDC has updated data specifically targeting cruise travel. They have been relying solely on data from March 2020 when stating that cruises pose a unique risk, ignoring how that risk is mitigated by an increasingly vaccinated population, the rate and effectiveness of naturally-acquired immunity, and a better understanding of how the virus spreads (remembering that the data they are using to control cruise ship travel is from a time when everyone was disinfecting their groceries before bringing them into the house!). 

 

If the CDC had updated data specifically about COVID spread on cruise ships taking these mitigating factors into account, I can't imagine they wouldn't have brought it when they were asked - twice - by the judge. Which leads me to believe the CDC doesn't have it.

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, tell me, who else has the authority, or expertise to set the boundaries of  what is acceptable federal regulation regarding public health?

Well up here the duly elected Government has the authority to introduce and pass acceptable Federal regulations and they rely on the expertise of various departments to consult them in the creation of such regulations, is it different down your way?

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13 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

Same goes with Florida law. 
 

how about we get the CDC AND Florida out of the way and let the cruise lines manage their business

 

I couldn't agree more. I would like to see the cruise lines sue to have that law amended. Let the cruise lines decide if they want to require vaccines or not. Then let's see what they do with it

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13 minutes ago, caniuseit said:

Same goes with Florida law. 
 

how about we get the CDC AND Florida out of the way and let the cruise lines manage their business

 

i actually think it would be useful to have some cruises fully vaccinated and some not. Then we can determine the best course of action

Florida brought the lawsuit. They won.   They only got involved because of the cdc over reach.  

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16 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

But the possible bad result is much more serious than it has ever been, so the effect is much more serious.

 

I hear you.  I'm doubting there will be hoards of unvaccinated cruisers.  The percentage of vaccinated adults is rising and the vulnerable population (older folks) have an extremely high rate of vaccination.  The part that cracks me up is this is a thread about kids cruising - was only months ago they were "superspreaders" and that belief closed all the schools.  Now, it seems everyone wants them cruising.  Go figure.  I've said several times, things have changed rapidly.

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I wonder if anyone on this Carnival forum (or other forums of their preferred cruise line) looks at other cruise line forums to see what is going on in the outside world? I find it interesting that eight crew members testing positive, even though vaccinated, can cause four week long cruises from July 3-July 31 to be cancelled. Yet the comments on here don't even acknowledge anything like this.

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I could be mistaken, but I didn’t think this lawsuit had anything to do with DeSantis’ Executivr Order saying the cruise lines can’t ask for proof of vaccination. I thought it was they wanted the protocols imparted with the no sail order lifted. Where does it say It’s within Florida’s jurisdiction to fine cruise lines if they ask for proof of vaccination?

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2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Florida brought the lawsuit. They won.   They only got involved because of the cdc over reach.  

There are 2 entities that are imposing rules. The CDC and Florida.  Disagree?

 

Florida challenged the CDC overreach.
Florida overreach has not been challenged yet. I suspect that is in the works now. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, balcony bound said:

 

I hear you.  I'm doubting there will be hoards of unvaccinated cruisers.  The percentage of vaccinated adults is rising and the vulnerable population (older folks) have an extremely high rate of vaccination.  The part that cracks me up is this is a thread about kids cruising - was only months ago they were "superspreaders" and that belief closed all the schools.  Now, it seems everyone wants them cruising.  Go figure.  I've said several times, things have changed rapidly.


My young grandkids, ages 3 and 4, have been in preschool nearly this entire pandemic.  At one point, my granddaughter's teacher got covid.  None of the kids in her class got covid and none of the kids wore masks in that class.  Another time, my son (their uncle) got covid.  Before he knew it was covid, he thought it was his allergies.  He held both kids and the two families took indoor and outdoor pictures.  Neither child got covid.  Every time the kids had multiple tests and they were always negative.   

 

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7 minutes ago, SRQbeachgirl said:

 

The science and updated data about the virus is available, but I have doubts that the CDC has updated data specifically targeting cruise travel. They have been relying solely on data from March 2020 when stating that cruises pose a unique risk, ignoring how that risk is mitigated by an increasingly vaccinated population, the rate and effectiveness of naturally-acquired immunity, and a better understanding of how the virus spreads (remembering that the data they are using to control cruise ship travel is from a time when everyone was disinfecting their groceries before bringing them into the house!). 

 

If the CDC had updated data specifically about COVID spread on cruise ships taking these mitigating factors into account, I can't imagine they wouldn't have brought it when they were asked - twice - by the judge. Which leads me to believe the CDC doesn't have it.

I can't disagree with you.  But I do see what is posted on their own website, and their lawyers seemed unaware.  There is a communications disconnect, very bad lawyers, or something else is going on that we don't know about.  But what they have presented in Court is clearly insufficient.

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1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:


My young grandkids, ages 3 and 4, have been in preschool nearly this entire pandemic.  At one point, my granddaughter's teacher got covid.  None of the kids in her class got covid and none of the kids wore masks in that class.  Another time, my son (their uncle) got covid.  Before he knew it was covid, he thought it was his allergies.  He held both kids and the two families took indoor and outdoor pictures.  Neither child got covid.  Every time the kids had multiple tests and they were always negative.   

 

 

I totally can see that.  My spouse didn't get it from me, either.

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3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If they are "detained", they are only due to their management's inactivity over the last 15 months.

OIC 

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1 minute ago, TNcruising02 said:


My young grandkids, ages 3 and 4, have been in preschool nearly this entire pandemic.  At one point, my granddaughter's teacher got covid.  None of the kids in her class got covid and none of the kids wore masks in that class.  Another time, my son (their uncle) got covid.  Before he knew it was covid, he thought it was his allergies.  He held both kids and the two families took indoor and outdoor pictures.  Neither child got covid.  Every time the kids had multiple tests and they were always negative.   

 

I'm very happy that you had the outcome that you did, however every parent is not as lucky.  Yes, the odds are small for a bad outcome, but that outcome is so bad I am truly surprised at how many parents are letting their children take it.  But I am not telling anyone how to raise their children or calling them bad parents for doing that.  But because it didn't happen in your case does not mean it can't in another.  They have not found any good predictor for who will get it and how severe it will become for how long.  That is the problem, everyone is at risk.

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7 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I can't disagree with you.  But I do see what is posted on their own website, and their lawyers seemed unaware.  There is a communications disconnect, very bad lawyers, or something else is going on that we don't know about.  But what they have presented in Court is clearly insufficient.


It's difficult for them to say that masks had an impact on the spread of the virus when the virus goes right through the masks and the virus spread in places with strict mask requirements and lockdowns.  I don't think they have conclusive data that shows that the places with strict mask requirements had less cases of covid than places where masks requirements weren't so strict.   The judge even mentioned the CDC's own study that showed masks had little impact on the spread of the virus.

Edited by TNcruising02
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2 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I'm very happy that you had the outcome that you did, however every parent is not as lucky.  Yes, the odds are small for a bad outcome, but that outcome is so bad I am truly surprised at how many parents are letting their children take it.  But I am not telling anyone how to raise their children or calling them bad parents for doing that.  But because it didn't happen in your case does not mean it can't in another.  They have not found any good predictor for who will get it and how severe it will become for how long.  That is the problem, everyone is at risk.


I am not saying I would support my grandchildren going on a cruise right now.  In fact, I specifically told my son and DIL that they need to wait until next year.  What other parents and grandparents do is their decision, but to me it's a bit risky with all of the plane travel and possible variants at the different ports.

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27 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

Maybe more salt in a wound that was called for. However, all we've heard for months is lectures on law, science, and morality Then when the actual system is challenged on all of these fronts, we find that it was all baseless (like many of us said). So it's not around those principles, it's around wanting special treatment when you feel your emotions warrant it.

No salt in the wound here. You seem to have a failure to recognize that it is possible to agree with someone on a specific issue - even if you don't agree with their politics as a whole.

 

I don't know anyone influenced by politics of any kind that agreed with the BS the CDC was pulling with cruiselines. Way too much overreach. They made it seem like cruise passengers started the virus then were the dirtiest, most untrustworthy group on the face of this earth. So I was all for the spirit of this lawsuit, and I'm glad the judge handed a victory to DeSantis. And yes I can say that without gagging or feeling as if I'm wrong about believing the science behind covid and the vaccines.

 

The CDC likely doesn't have one person on the board who made these ridiculous rules who has ever sailed on a cruise ship (yachts don't count). And like so many even in the general public, they are clueless and ignorant to how they work. I take offense to the over arching crap tossed at cruising. Likewise I take offense when statements are made like the one you did - lumping people who you obviously disagree with in the same category. Just because your thinking isn't nuanced enough to see that it's o.k. and healthy to have mutual agreements and disagreements across the aisle, that doesn't make it so for everyone. Your statement was uncalled for and ridiculous. And wholly inaccurate - proven so almost immediately after your post. By me, a leftie who would love to give DeSantis a pound for sticking it to the CDC!

 

The cruiselines are quite capable of making their own decisions for the safety of their ships, and I look forward to them doing so without interrupting any of their current restart plans. 

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7 minutes ago, Heartgrove said:

I wonder if anyone on this Carnival forum (or other forums of their preferred cruise line) looks at other cruise line forums to see what is going on in the outside world? I find it interesting that eight crew members testing positive, even though vaccinated, can cause four week long cruises from July 3-July 31 to be cancelled. Yet the comments on here don't even acknowledge anything like this.

Getting crewed up is proving difficult and they are vulnerable.   Lots of pre-pandemic crew aren't coming back.  So they're training new people.  They have to be quarantined and vaccinated and that takes time for effectiveness.  Meanwhile if there's 1000-2000 crew aboard, an operation-ending 1% outbreak threshhold is only 10-20.  8 positive cases is no joke.

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3 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:


It's difficult for them to say that masks had an impact on the spread of the virus when the virus goes right through the masks and the virus spread in places with strict mask requirements and lockdowns.  I don't think they have conclusive data that shows that the places with strict mask requirements had less cases of covid than places where masks requirements weren't so strict.   The judge even mentioned the CDC's own study that showed masks had little impact on the spread of the virus.

 

Most measures have fallen apart when the proof is examined. There's a reason why the mask mandate largely went away. Not because we decide to combat a deadly virus with an honor system, but because a virus that is in aerosol form is not stopped by a piece of cloth on your face.

 

Many of the arguments for extreme measures are backed up by facts such as "March 2020 cruises" and "600k died". Neither of which prove cruising needs special treatment in July of 2021 while the rest of the world gets back to normal life.

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2 hours ago, MrMarc said:

But I don't think Florida had "science" to disprove the rules, they just showed that they were onerous and different from other industries.  But I have not read the hearing transcript, so I could be wrong.  I am confused as to why the CDC has not presented more science.  They have it.  You can find it on their website and I have heard it talked about at the Vaccine Advisory Committee meetings. Between that and the Judges "sort of" ruling, I am even more confused than I was before.  And I was pretty confused before.

They picked an arbitrary number of 95% that conflicted with the 70% number that the administration was using.  This was in the motion from Florida so the reason they didn't present it is because it doesn't exist.  

 

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10 minutes ago, regoodwinjr said:

They picked an arbitrary number of 95% that conflicted with the 70% number that the administration was using.  This was in the motion from Florida so the reason they didn't present it is because it doesn't exist.  

 

Any number is arbitrary. Herd immunity is not defined by a percent vaccinated. That is science.

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I am wondering why the rules for the cruises seem so different from the rules to stay at a land hotel.  We just spent a few days in Orlando....  no one asked if we were vaccinated.  everyone sat at the pool.  we all ate in the same room.  Masks were expected in the inside common areas for everyone.... no mask mandate at Universal, inside or out.  why isn't CDC regulating other industries to the extent they want to regulate the cruise lines?

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1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

and we are back to cruise lines are required to have labs on the ship to process all the tests. Labs the judge thought were too burdensome.

The cruiselines won't spend a dime more than they have too now on testing...hence any testing prior to embarkation will occur off the ship at the passengers expense with it unlikely additional testing will exist even at debarkation. I see many many potential covid cases onboard covered up now by people doping up on Tylenol and/or Ibuprofen. This just reinforces my vaccination status as I am exposed everytime I go to the store with it likely going to exist at a higher level on the ship now with mixed vaccination status. At least my chance of getting even a moderate case is near zero let alone under 0.1% for hospitalization while unvaccinated have a much higher chance of a severe case and might end up spending a few extra days at home or heaven forbid a one way trip to the hospital.  I like my odds as a vaccinated individual, especially with mixed vaccinated cruising.

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