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Well, now this is interesting.....Looks like Florida may have gotten it's way.


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Just read the conclusion and it really doesn't settle anything as the CDC can still write modifications and submit by July 2, then Florida responds by July 9. All of this because of the guy in Tallahassee.

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4 minutes ago, mightycruisequeen said:

Actually, most of the people I've met while cruising have never even heard of Cruise Critic, so I'm thinking the opinions expressed on these boards are not necessarily a fair representation of cruisers in general.

 

I will agree as we are on one of the Viking Iceland cruises with a bunch of missteps by Viking. I would estimate that it is only about 10% of the passengers that are on CC who have been commenting.

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26 minutes ago, Heartgrove said:

Just read the conclusion and it really doesn't settle anything as the CDC can still write modifications and submit by July 2, then Florida responds by July 9. All of this because of the guy in Tallahassee.

Possibly you need to read the ruling.  It is incredibly damning of CDC’s case.  Virtually every argument raised by the CDC was rejected by Judge Merryman.  Virtually every argument raised by Florida was supported by case law.  I have a sneaky suspicion the judge was not impressed with the CDC’s arrogance.  Also returning the two parties to mediation I interpret to mean that the CDC was the ‘bad actor’ during the prior mediation.  
 

The ruling specifically states that The Alaska Tourism Recovery Act is a separate issue from this ruling. The Act narrowly authorizes the limited cruising in Alaska this year and does not provide any legislative relief to the CDC with respect to its assumed authority to use whatever measures it deems necessary.

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Reading this brings a couple thoughts to my mind -

 

It seems that no matter  the decision regarding FL, there are many countries who will not allow passengers to disembark without proof of vaccination, so this could create a lot of issues regardless of opinions on the CDC position. 
IMHO, the  practice of everyone handling the same utensils at the buffet has for a long time needed to be eliminated - and not just because of Covid. We have always avoided buffets that practice this.  I also cannot understand why a Federal judge would also rule against extra cleaning measures, again regardless of Covid. 
And then on a personal thought, I do not believe that DH nor I will be at all comfortable sailing without vaccination requirements. This makes the cancellation policies when booking even more important to understand. 

 

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1 hour ago, leerathje said:

The unfortunate thing is that I am now cancelling my cruise from Fort Lauderdale, as I'm not sailing on ship that is not fully (or 95%) vaccinated. 

 

L.

 

Your choice. 

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1 hour ago, Heartgrove said:

Just read the conclusion and it really doesn't settle anything as the CDC can still write modifications and submit by July 2, then Florida responds by July 9. All of this because of the guy in Tallahassee.

Oh yes it settles a lot. The CDC has two weeks to submit modifications consistent with the judge's order by early July. Florida may respond, if it wishes, by July 9th. Either way, the CDC's current CSO is gonna be out the window.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if some folks are inappropriately conflating the Florida v HHS/CDC lawsuit with the Florida statute banning Florida companies from requiring vaccinations.  This ruling has no direct bearing on that issue.

 

Dennis

Edited by kelleherdl
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11 minutes ago, Vineyard View said:

Reading this brings a couple thoughts to my mind -

 

It seems that no matter  the decision regarding FL, there are many countries who will not allow passengers to disembark without proof of vaccination, so this could create a lot of issues regardless of opinions on the CDC position. 
IMHO, the  practice of everyone handling the same utensils at the buffet has for a long time needed to be eliminated - and not just because of Covid. We have always avoided buffets that practice this.  I also cannot understand why a Federal judge would also rule against extra cleaning measures, again regardless of Covid. 
And then on a personal thought, I do not believe that DH nor I will be at all comfortable sailing without vaccination requirements. This makes the cancellation policies when booking even more important to understand. 

 

I agree with your first two thoughts - especially the buffet protocols. Should always be workers serving. The judge ruled the way he did because the CDC does not have the power/authority to issue those rules. I predict Florida also will win any suit brought re: it's inherent state power re: medical privacy. When that happens, cruise lines either will have to abide by the law or take their boats elsewhere. Given Florida has three of the busiest cruise ports in the world, I think the cruise lines will comply in the end.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

Oh yes it settles a lot. The CDC has two weeks to submit modifications consistent with the judge's order by early July. Florida may respond, if it wishes, by July 9th. Either way, the CDC's current CSO is gonna be out the window.

 

Given the wording by Judge Merryday I think that it is not an open and closed case. I'm not a lawyer but you are?

 

 

Edited by Heartgrove
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1 minute ago, kelleherdl said:

I wonder if some folks are inappropriately conflating the Florida v HHS/CDC lawsuit with the Florida statue banning Florida companies from requiring vaccinations.  This ruling has no bearing on that issue.

 

Dennis

Absolutely correct. However, the cruise lines now can't argue it's requiring vaccinations because of the CDC.I predict FL also will prevail in that matter. I also predict any cruise line that violate current FL law will be fined to the greatest extent per the statute ($5,000 per customer violation) and those fines will be upheld when FL comes to collect.

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Just on the Carnival board and headline about this calls it a win for Florida. This is not a win for Florida or cruise passengers. Who wants to cruise with a bunch of non-vaccinated children and adults? We'll see what happens when the cruises start again. Worst case scenario is Covid erupts and the cruise lines are shut down again. Best case scenario is all non-vaccinated passengers have to prove negative tests upon embarkation, have to wear masks in public places on the ships, and are tested at debarkation. Glad our first cruise isn't until Dec. '21 (11 days on Holland) and our first Carnival cruise isn't until Jan. '22.  

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2 minutes ago, Djptcp said:

Just on the Carnival board and headline about this calls it a win for Florida. This is not a win for Florida or cruise passengers. 

It is a significant win for the rule of law over bureaucratic overreach.  Ironically, the judge referenced multiple times the historic preeminence of the power of the states to enforce quarantines.  This is in contrast to what readers of cruise critic would understand from some posters that the federal role has always been preeminent.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, leerathje said:

The unfortunate thing is that I am now cancelling my cruise from Fort Lauderdale, as I'm not sailing on ship that is not fully (or 95%) vaccinated. 

 

L.

 

You probably wouldn't have wanted to come to Fort Lauderdale anyway. Our restaurants have been open since last May. Anyone who is fully vaccinated can go maskless almost anywhere. It's on the honor system.

 

In Florida's 1st District (courts - which is the entire panhandle across to and including Jacksonville) masks mandates were determined to be unconstitutional. On their face, IIRC.

 

We are also the only place in the world with both crocodiles and alligators. Our mosquitoes can carry small children away and we have Palmetto Bugs, the 18 wheeler of the cockroach family. Then there's Sawgrass. It's bothan outlet mall and a grass that can cut through clothes and skin. (Other than the mosquito thing, none of this is made up.)

 

Run! Save yourselves! :classic_ohmy:

Edited by POA1
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40 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

I agree with your first two thoughts - especially the buffet protocols. Should always be workers serving. The judge ruled the way he did because the CDC does not have the power/authority to issue those rules. I predict Florida also will win any suit brought re: it's inherent state power re: medical privacy. When that happens, cruise lines either will have to abide by the law or take their boats elsewhere. Given Florida has three of the busiest cruise ports in the world, I think the cruise lines will comply in the end.

So if the CDC does not have the power/authority to issue those rules, it’s my understanding  (and maybe I am wrong);that companies and corporations have a right to set their own rules. Such as you need to be vaccinated to sail on us. You need to be wearing a mask to enter my place of business. Etc. 

I just saw an interview with RCCL that if they may need to change their all passenger requirements,  those who are not vaccinated may need to conform (my word) to different guidelines once on the ship. 
What a total cluster. 

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2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Remember its the CDC rule about 95% vaccinations or test cruises.  This is what is driving the vaccination requirements.  I assume now those are optional.

Kirk, I do think you are selling the ports a bit short.  The reality for any cruise line is that must comply with the rules/laws of every port they visit.   Other then Mexico the cruise lines might have a problem finding a port to accept ships that do not have vaccination requirements.   We have 3 cruises booked between now and the end of the year (with 2 different lines) and they all require that 100% of everyone aboard is fully vaccinated.  In addition, for one of those cruises (embarking in Barbados) everyone not only needs to be vaccinated but must also have a negative RT-Test (within 3 days of arrival on the island) plus an additional test once on the island!     These rules will obviously change with time, but in the short term the ships that do not have everyone vaccinated are going to be limited on their ports.

 

Hank

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Here's an article on the Florida mask mandate Florida District 1 case. It looks like it was remanded back to the lower court by the 3 judge panel. It will probably work its way to the FL Supreme Court eventually since it's a constitutional question.

 

https://www.fox13news.com/news/appeals-court-sends-alachua-mask-mandate-back-to-lower-court-to-reconsider

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3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

About time somebody put the CDC in its place.  That agency has continued its wishy washy dictates (mostly NOT backed by any real science) much of which still makes little sense.  Consider a few COVID related decisions which make no sense when considering the CDC's own posted info on COVID.  There is no COVID related reason for limitations on buffets, no COVID related reason for all the insistence on cleaning, etc.  That being said there are some good reasons for these policies but it is not COVID.

 

Hank

Amen, Hank!

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2 hours ago, Djptcp said:

Just on the Carnival board and headline about this calls it a win for Florida. This is not a win for Florida or cruise passengers. Who wants to cruise with a bunch of non-vaccinated children and adults? We'll see what happens when the cruises start again. Worst case scenario is Covid erupts and the cruise lines are shut down again. Best case scenario is all non-vaccinated passengers have to prove negative tests upon embarkation, have to wear masks in public places on the ships, and are tested at debarkation. Glad our first cruise isn't until Dec. '21 (11 days on Holland) and our first Carnival cruise isn't until Jan. '22.  

RCCL has posted their Protocols with regards to those who are not Vaccinated.  Testing will be required at $136 per test and will have two Tests.  Key Cards will be punched for those Unvaccinated and those Vaccinated will wear wrist bands.  Some Venues will be off limits and no Open Seating for Unvaccinated.  Masks, of course, must be worn.  

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1 hour ago, Vineyard View said:

So if the CDC does not have the power/authority to issue those rules, it’s my understanding  (and maybe I am wrong);that companies and corporations have a right to set their own rules. Such as you need to be vaccinated to sail on us. You need to be wearing a mask to enter my place of business. Etc. 

I just saw an interview with RCCL that if they may need to change their all passenger requirements,  those who are not vaccinated may need to conform (my word) to different guidelines once on the ship. 
What a total cluster. 

No. That's wrong. The issue is that the CDC has not presented acceptable scientific evidence to back up their mandates. (Or, if they have, the 95% vaccination level should apply everywhere. Please see my earlier post about Federal buildings.)

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Okay. I won’t argue because I am not a scientist, nor medical professional. 
My previous point was that  if another country says no one can enter if all aren’t vaccinated, it could create issues for the ships to come into ports, and at best for unvaccinated to disembark from the ships. Florida can make all the rules they want to, but if country B, C, D, and or E say ‘no - you are not welcome here’, the overall cruise industry is greatly and negatively impacted. 

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Disclosure - I'm not a lawyer, but I am a former Federal employee on the regulatory side of things. What I don't understand about this ruling is what happened to the principle of agency deference, wherein the CDC, for example, is assumed to be the authority about issues within its domain? Attorneys among us, what say you? 

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3 hours ago, idiebabe said:

RCCL has posted their Protocols with regards to those who are not Vaccinated.  Testing will be required at $136 per test and will have two Tests.  Key Cards will be punched for those Unvaccinated and those Vaccinated will wear wrist bands.  Some Venues will be off limits and no Open Seating for Unvaccinated.  Masks, of course, must be worn.  

 

Yes, we saw this on ABC national news tonight (Friday), and it described a highly-modified cruising experience for non-vaccinated people that would either convince them to get vaccinated (assuming no medical reason not to), or not book in the first place.

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10 hours ago, Mary229 said:

The latest polls show 80% of cruisers prefer vaccinated cruises.   I think for the lines that sell to an older audience their clientele will demand the vaccination as will countries we will be visiting.  I remember a time when you could not cruise to Peru without showing your yellow fever vaccination 

  Cruise ships historically are petrie dishes for spread . Thus ,imo the cruise lines must have protocols established so there are no  covid 19 breakouts .Main reason is further disruption  by any covid 19 breakout will doom the entire industry 

 

My personal thinking is how safe are we now even  have  been vaccinated against the new India variant of covid 19 ;which is supposedly even more contagious & is already here in the USA ?

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