Norddeutscher Lloyd And Hapag And Hapag Lloyd

[norboy76]

Anyone remember cruising on these lines? I had a friend who came to Canada on one of them after the war (WW2) on one of the ships, but he couldn't remember which. I have quite a few postcards and some items from these lines, which I'll be happy to post photos of. Below are some of my oldest items for these lines. Of note is the first postcard of the Berlin *note arrow is pointing to the flag on her bow during WW2). I have postcards for all the 4-stackers the lines had. Also including the Bremen which also was used during WW2 hence the flag on the bow). Also being included is a nice Hapag Lloyd Metal ships Wheel Thermometer and a cute souvenir dish for the Europa. Oh and I have to include a *Hapag Lloyd Truck* which I've never seen before.

[rkacruiser]

The plate with M. S. Europa:  North German Lloyd?  Acquired after WW II?  She looks "more modern" and I wonder if she wasn't owned and named by another line.  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

I believe the Europa on your plate was originally the first Kungsholm.

 

 

[norboy76]

6 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

The plate with M. S. Europa:  North German Lloyd?  Acquired after WW II?  She looks "more modern" and I wonder if she wasn't owned and named by another line.  

The Plate with the MS Europa, that's for the Europa that was with Norddeutscher Lloyd and ran from 1965 - 1981. Formerly the Kungsholm: 1953 - 1965, and later the Columbus C.: 1981 - 1985 (see photo)

[norboy76]

5 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

I believe the Europa on your plate was originally the first Kungsholm.

Yes, and then later the Columbus C. for Costa Line. Have you ever seen that table thermometer before? All I know is it's from the 1970's after Hapag Lloyd was founded after the mergers. Also as you can see, I have a nice collection of all the NDL 4-Stackers in my postcards. I also have 2 postcards for the Berlin which would become the Soviet Liner - Admiral Nakhimov which would sink in 1986 with the loss of 423 lives. (see photo posted). I'm including my Admiral Nakhimov postcard photo. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by norboy76
updated info

[CGTNORMANDIE]

Thanks NB,

coincidently…I was onboard Bremen in 1971 when they announced the merger…HAPAG Lloyd.  
 

I remember talking to a travel agent back in 1972.  She told me the best cruise she had ever been on was the Europa.  She said that ship fit like a glove.  She said it was really comfortable and the food and service were second to none.  This lady had been on a lot of cruises.  I always thought Kungsholm/Europa looked the way a liner should…great lines.

[norboy76]

12 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Thanks NB,

coincidently…I was onboard Bremen in 1971 when they announced the merger…HAPAG Lloyd.  
 

I remember talking to a travel agent back in 1972.  She told me the best cruise she had ever been on was the Europa.  She said that ship fit like a glove.  She said it was really comfortable and the food and service were second to none.  This lady had been on a lot of cruises.  I always thought Kungsholm/Europa looked the way a liner should…great lines.

I do have a postcard showing sort of the interior of the Bremen, and a double deck of playing cards in the original package with the original German language rule book for a couple of German card games (Gin Rummy & Canasta), I also have a couple of postcards for NDL but the ship names sound Spanish and not German. The 2 ships are the SS Sierra Morena and the SS Sierra Cordoba. I have postcards for another German line, I'm unsure if you ever were on this line or not, it was called the Hamburg America Line? I have a nice collection of postcards for that line too (they were the line that merged with NDL to form Hapag Lloyd in 1970) If you would like to see the Hamburg America postcards, I'll be happy to show them as I have some big names in the postcards, including a nice one showing the Commodore with the SS Vaterland

Edited June 28, 2021 by norboy76
updated info

[rkacruiser]

On 6/27/2021 at 9:26 PM, norboy76 said:

The Plate with the MS Europa, that's for the Europa that was with Norddeutscher Lloyd and ran from 1965 - 1981. Formerly the Kungsholm: 1953 - 1965,

 

Yes, that's what I suspected.  

 

On 6/27/2021 at 9:30 PM, norboy76 said:

I also have 2 postcards for the Berlin which would become the Soviet Liner - Admiral Nakhimov which would sink in 1986 with the loss of 423 lives. (see photo posted).

 

I keep learning.  I did not know that the Admiral Nakhimov had been the NDL's Berlin.

 

I saw the Berlin up close when I visited a sailing of the France from New York.  They were both docked at Pier 88.  The contrast between the two vessels was stark!  Old World vs. New World in the extreme!  

 

The picture of the two gentlemen wearing white dinner jackets:  with yellow stripes?  There are yellow stripes in the decor of the walls.  Did somehow those yellow stripes get transposed onto the men's jackets?  

[norboy76]

4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Yes, that's what I suspected.  

 

 

I keep learning.  I did not know that the Admiral Nakhimov had been the NDL's Berlin.

 

I saw the Berlin up close when I visited a sailing of the France from New York.  They were both docked at Pier 88.  The contrast between the two vessels was stark!  Old World vs. New World in the extreme!  

 

The picture of the two gentlemen wearing white dinner jackets:  with yellow stripes?  There are yellow stripes in the decor of the walls.  Did somehow those yellow stripes get transposed onto the men's jackets?  

Which of the 3 Berlins would you have seen as there were a few Berlins actually that I have postcards for:

Berlin #1: 1908 - 1914 (Became the White Star Line SS Arabic: 1919 - 1931

Berlin #2: 1925 - 1945 (Became the Black Sea Steamship Company SS Admiral Nakhimov: 1949 - 1986

Berlin #3: 1954 - 1966 (Formerly the Swedish American Line SS Gripsholm: 1925 - 1954

 

Those annoying yellow stripes happened when I scanned the postcard, the scan on my laptop screen showed all these yellow lines which are quiet annoying when looking at the postcard on the screen. I'm going to have to redo it and instead use my camera to take a photo of the postcard so no lines show up.

[rkacruiser]

17 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Berlin #3: 1954 - 1966 (Formerly the Swedish American Line SS Gripsholm: 1925 - 1954

 

This is the one that I saw in New York on the opposite side of the pier from the France.  

[norboy76]

7 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

This is the one that I saw in New York on the opposite side of the pier from the France.  

Ohhh nice, I have postcards for all 3 of them which I'll happily post in year order from first to last. 

First Postcard: 1908 - 1914

Second Postcard: 1925 - 1945

Third Postcard: 1954 - 1966

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Third Postcard: 1954 - 1966

 

No question:  that was the Berlin that I saw!  

 

I wonder how thoroughly air conditioned she was.  I visited the France when she sailed at Midnight on a very warm Summer evening.  I remember seeing crew members sitting on the elevated deck aft of the kingposts.  Too hot to stay below decks is what I assumed.   

[norboy76]

I also have some really nice postcards and item for another German line, the Hamburg-America Line, Hamburg Atlantic Line, and Other German Lines.

Some are interesting looking, like the one postcard, you didn't normally see a passenger ship with *6 Masts*. Also see what you think of this one lol, do you think they made the bow long enough? I've never seen such a long bow area on a ship, looks a lil um rediculous to me lol. Also a very nice  Hamburg Spoon. A nice TS Hanseatic spoon, a couple of Hanseatic map dishes from 1970. A neat record album with the Bunte Kuh from the Hafendampfschiffahrt A.G. Line. And a nice vintage 1976 KD Rhine Cruises Castle Guide to use when you were on their river cruises to learn about the castles you would see. Also a nice postcard of the Peter Deilmann Deutschland (from between 1998 - 2015). And an unique record album showing on the cover a small car ferry the *Loreley V* (1959 - 1994) no date on the album though. Also a German Rhine Cruises shot glass for the MFS Sancta Maria (1979 - 1998)

[rkacruiser]

4 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Also see what you think of this one lol, do you think they made the bow long enough? I've never seen such a long bow area on a ship, looks a lil um rediculous to me lol.

 

I wonder if the actual ship's bow was really that long or was this some artist's creation?  If it really was that long, there must have been a couple of very large cargo holds, at least.

 

4 hours ago, norboy76 said:

A nice TS Hanseatic spoon, a couple of Hanseatic map dishes from 1970.

 

The Hanseatic is a ship that has interested me.  It's a classic, the former Canadian Pacific's Empress of Scotland, rebuilt for German Atlantic Line (previously known as Hamburg Atlantic Line).  Her story did not end well when she caught fire in New York Harbor, was towed to Germany, but was deemed to be too expensive to rebuild and was sent to the scrappers.  The history of this Company is interesting to learn because of the connections with other Companies:  Home Lines, Holland America, Zim Lines, ending with the Black Sea Shipping Company of the Soviet Union.  

 

Your Hanseatic dishes must have been a popular type of item.  I have a dish exactly like that from the M. S. Vistafjord showing the route for a Spitzbergen-North Cape Cruise of July 19-August 2, 1980.  

[norboy76]

4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

SS Patricia Postcard

I wonder if the actual ship's bow was really that long or was this some artist's creation?  If it really was that long, there must have been a couple of very large cargo holds, at least.

 

Yes lol her bow area was actually that long, I found a photo of what she looked like, and it looks reddiculous the length of the bow as can see in this photo of her. The Hanseatic dishes you saw? I also have 2 for Cunard which I'll post in my Cunard thread, as one of them is interesting.

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Yes lol her bow area was actually that long, I found a photo of what she looked like, and it looks reddiculous the length of the bow as can see in this photo of her.

 

Is there any indication on the postcard or the photo what was the shipping line that owned Patricia?  Neither show the funnel clearly enough to discern what the shipping line might be.  Knowing the company would provide a route to do some research to try to find out why the ship was built with such a long foredeck.  

[norboy76]

5 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Is there any indication on the postcard or the photo what was the shipping line that owned Patricia?  Neither show the funnel clearly enough to discern what the shipping line might be.  Knowing the company would provide a route to do some research to try to find out why the ship was built with such a long foredeck.  

My postcard for the SS Patricia is from Hamburg-America Line. She ran from 1899 - 1914, In 1914 the German government turned her into a troopship. She was surrendered to the US and she became the USS Patricia from 1919 - 1919. Sold to Britain in 1920 to the Ellerman Line and ran for them from 1920 - 1921. Scrapped in 1921. I hope this info is found interesting. 

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, norboy76 said:

My postcard for the SS Patricia is from Hamburg-America Line

 

That information provides a basis for some research on this vessel.  I will let you know what, if anything, I find out.  Particularly, why the very long foredeck.  

[rkacruiser]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:21 PM, norboy76 said:

My postcard for the SS Patricia is from Hamburg-America Line. She ran from 1899 - 1914, In 1914 the German government turned her into a troopship. She was surrendered to the US and she became the USS Patricia from 1919 - 1919. Sold to Britain in 1920 to the Ellerman Line and ran for them from 1920 - 1921. Scrapped in 1921. I hope this info is found interesting. 

 

On 7/4/2021 at 3:36 PM, rkacruiser said:

Knowing the company would provide a route to do some research to try to find out why the ship was built with such a long foredeck.  

 

My research as to why such a long foredeck was built turned up nothing.  She was the 4th of 4 sisters for the Company.  As built, she carried a surprising (to me) number of passengers in First, Cabin, and Third Class.  Over 2100 in Third Class plus less than 200 in each of the other two Classes.  

[norboy76]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:36 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

 

My research as to why such a long foredeck was built turned up nothing.  She was the 4th of 4 sisters for the Company.  As built, she carried a surprising (to me) number of passengers in First, Cabin, and Third Class.  Over 2100 in Third Class plus less than 200 in each of the other two Classes.  

Maybe because of the high number in third class, just guessing, I wonder if they were primarily built for the immigration trade, hence the high numbers for that class? I also got ahold of another German Liner which sadly ended badly during the war with the loss of almost 4000 people, the SS General Von Steuben. And a really nice 1900's Kronprinz Wilhelm with the Captain postcard. I'll be adding an unique postcard to the Leonardo Da Vinci and Michelangelo chat thread.

[rkacruiser]

9 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Maybe because of the high number in third class, just guessing, I wonder if they were primarily built for the immigration trade, hence the high numbers for that class?

 

That's rather what I thought, but, where and how would the Third Class passengers be housed?  Seeing a deck plan for that ship (or that Class of sisters) would be interesting.  I expected to find some indication that the ship was designed to be more of a cargo/passenger ship with such a large foredeck that ought to indicate, I thought, at least two holds of considerable size.  

 

I don't immediately recognize the name of General Von Steuben.  More research to do; you are keeping me busy!   😄

 

 

[norboy76]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

That's rather what I thought, but, where and how would the Third Class passengers be housed?  Seeing a deck plan for that ship (or that Class of sisters) would be interesting.  I expected to find some indication that the ship was designed to be more of a cargo/passenger ship with such a large foredeck that ought to indicate, I thought, at least two holds of considerable size.  

 

I don't immediately recognize the name of General Von Steuben.  More research to do; you are keeping me busy!   😄

 

 

Lol sorry haha. The General Von Steuben: Owned by Norddeutscher LLoyd

1923: München

1930: SS General von Steuben

1938: Steuben

During World War II, she served as a troop accommodation ship, and from 1944 as an armed transport.

Feb 10, 1945 she was torpedoed by a soviet submarine, estimated almost 4000 lives lost

In 1923, München was the first German trans-Atlantic passenger liner both to be launched, and to enter New York Harbor, since the end of World War I.

On February 11, 1930, after docking and discharging passengers and most of her crew from a voyage from Bremen, Germany, a fire broke out in a paint locker which quickly spread to another storage hold; the massive fire and explosion resulting in a five-alarm fire with all fire equipment in New York City being sent to the burning ship. The fire could not be controlled and the ship sank next to the wharf where it had docked. In one of the largest shipping salvage efforts of its time, München was raised, towed to a dry dock, repaired, and returned to service and renamed General Von Steuben.

[rkacruiser]

16 hours ago, norboy76 said:

Lol sorry haha. The General Von Steuben: Owned by Norddeutscher LLoyd

 

I enjoy such research when I have time to do it.  She was a good looking ship.  There is a You Tube video of the wreck of the ship.  The ship is lying on her side, so it's a bit difficult to understand what one is seeking.  

[norboy76]

5 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I enjoy such research when I have time to do it.  She was a good looking ship.  There is a You Tube video of the wreck of the ship.  The ship is lying on her side, so it's a bit difficult to understand what one is seeking.  

I did get ahold of an interesting postcard for ww1 which is interesting, it's for what used to be Hamburg America Line's Vaterland. This postcard though is for when the US seized her, the postcard is for her under her military name USS Leviathan (before she became the ocean liner SS Leviathan). So this is for her in her *Grey War Paint*, but the message on the back is unique too, as it was written in 1918 when still the trooper and the person has hand written the ship's *stats on weight, beam, draft, capacity, the engine's horsepower, number of boilers, speed, coal consumption, but also food facts such as bread, coffee, pies, eggs and the weight of the food for per day* and at the top says the first name of the person that came home aboard her (presumably a soldier or because of all the stats maybe one of the ship's crew, sadly no last name, only a first which doesn't help. I will post photos of the front and back as I haven't seen a military postcard with so much info hand written on the back. I noticed tug boats and a small excursion boat near her, so she must be returning to the United States by the looks of the photo. Please note the postcard front photo, I had to enlarge it for myself to see, and the entire deck and every lifeboat are filled with soldiers coming home in the photo, from bow to stern she's covered in soldiers and at the top too between the funnels are soldiers. 

[norboy76]

On 7/17/2021 at 3:53 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

I enjoy such research when I have time to do it.  She was a good looking ship.  There is a You Tube video of the wreck of the ship.  The ship is lying on her side, so it's a bit difficult to understand what one is seeking.  

Any thoughts on that Leviathan postcard and the info the person put on the back and the lovely shop of all the troops covering her from bow to stern and from deck to the top near the funnels? I can't tell if the person who put all the info would have been a crew member, because the person was able to give the food stats on the foods being eaten and how much was on board for this voyage? Just curious to what you though? Soldier or Crew Member?