Florida Challenges CDC in the Supreme Court

[PS0DSH]

Florida seeks an emergency order blocking CDC policies that substantially limit cruise ships from sailing.

 

This could set some pretty big precedents in regards to Covid, Vaccines, etc, if SCOTUS chooses to act on this Emergency request.

Of course they could choose not to say anything at all.

 

https://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/21A5.pdf

[LadyBerard]

Would you summarize this for me please.........dumb it down!  lol

 

[Turtles06]

23 minutes ago, PS0DSH said:

Florida seeks an emergency order blocking CDC policies that substantially limit cruise ships from sailing.

To be more precise, Florida has asked the Supreme Court to vacate the stay pending appeal issued by the 11th Circuit of Judge Merryday’s preliminary injunction against the CDC in the lawsuit brought by Florida challenging the CDC’s Covid-19 rules regarding cruising. If the Supreme Court grant’s Florida’s request, it means that the injunction against the CDC would go into effect while the CDC pursues its appeal. If it denies it, the CDC rules would remain in place during the appeal. 

[paulh84]

38 minutes ago, LadyBerard said:

Would you summarize this for me please.........dumb it down!  lol

 

 

Case 1. Florida says the CDC can't tell the cruiselines what to do. 

 

-Also-
 

Case 2. Florida says Florida can tell the cruiselines what to do. 

 

At least Celebrity has found the middle ground in this mess. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by paulh84

[Jim_Iain]

2 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

To be more precise, Florida has asked the Supreme Court to vacate the stay pending appeal issued by the 11th Circuit of Judge Merryday’s preliminary injunction against the CDC in the lawsuit brought by Florida challenging the CDC’s Covid-19 rules regarding cruising. If the Supreme Court grant’s Florida’s request, it means that the injunction against the CDC would go into effect while the CDC pursues its appeal. If it denies it, the CDC rules would remain in place during the appeal. 

Wow @Turtles06   you explained this briefly but in a manner any laymen can understand.  

 

I'm a  legal geek and enjoy reading Supreme Court filings and briefs and amicus curie filings.   I enjoy reading the rational of appeals (both sides).

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jim_Iain

[Cruising89143]

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/appeals-court-reverses-decision-cdc-cruise-rules-are-no-longer-binding
 

I personally do not expect any changes by the cruise lines. They’re currently the only adults in the room.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

5 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/appeals-court-reverses-decision-cdc-cruise-rules-are-no-longer-binding
 

I personally do not expect any changes by the cruise lines. They’re currently the only adults in the room.

 

I thought the first judge was correct when he admonished the CDC for over reach.  And I think Celebrity has come up with a solution to the problem that works for them.  

[SueMo]

15 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/appeals-court-reverses-decision-cdc-cruise-rules-are-no-longer-binding
 

I personally do not expect any changes by the cruise lines. They’re currently the only adults in the room.

Reuters article says, "Cruise Lines International Association, a trade group, did not indicate on Friday whether it supported Florida'a legal challenge, but said before the appeals court order that cruise ships will continue to operate in accordance with the CDC requirements."

[Cruising89143]

2 minutes ago, SueMo said:

Reuters article says, "Cruise Lines International Association, a trade group, did not indicate on Friday whether it supported Florida'a legal challenge, but said before the appeals court order that cruise ships will continue to operate in accordance with the CDC requirements."

Which is exactly what I thought would happen. Especially with the current situation that’s happening. 

[Ken the cruiser]

3 hours ago, Turtles06 said:

To be more precise, Florida has asked the Supreme Court to vacate the stay pending appeal issued by the 11th Circuit of Judge Merryday’s preliminary injunction against the CDC in the lawsuit brought by Florida challenging the CDC’s Covid-19 rules regarding cruising. If the Supreme Court grant’s Florida’s request, it means that the injunction against the CDC would go into effect while the CDC pursues its appeal. If it denies it, the CDC rules would remain in place during the appeal. 

And if I might ask, any idea what will change, specifically with regards to Celebrity cruises, if the SCOTUS rules in favor of Florida?

 

Update: Just saw these 2 articles posted a little while ago. I guess we're going to find out the answer to my question.

 

11th Circuit Jumps Ship on Its Own Order After Florida Urged SCOTUS to Lift CDC’s Cruise Restrictions (msn.com)

 

Federal court lifts CDC rules for Florida-based cruise ships (msn.com)

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[Turtles06]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Update: Just saw these 2 articles posted a little while ago. I guess we're going to find out the answer to my question.

 

11th Circuit Jumps Ship on Its Own Order After Florida Urged SCOTUS to Lift CDC’s Cruise Restrictions (msn.com)

 

Federal court lifts CDC rules for Florida-based cruise ships (msn.com)

Well, that’s quite a surprise, thanks for posting that news. 
 

For those who haven’t clicked on the links, the 11th Circuit just reversed itself on the stay it issued last weekend of Judge Merryday’s preliminary injunction against the CDC rules. Unless I’m missing something, this means those rules only provide guidance right now to cruise lines operating out of Florida, they are not binding. 
 

It also means that Florida’s filing with the Supreme Court is moot. 
 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Turtles06

[NMTraveller]

24 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

Well, that’s quite a surprise, thanks for posting that news. 
 

For those who haven’t clicked on the links, the 11th Circuit just reversed itself on the stay it issued last weekend of Judge Merryday’s preliminary injunction against the CDC rules. Unless I’m missing something, this means those rules only provide guidance right now to cruise lines operating out of Florida, they are not binding. 
 

It also means that Florida’s filing with the Supreme Court is moot. 
 

 

So the CDC is now 0 for 2 in court?  Do they get one last shot?

Edited July 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[graphicguy]

3 hours ago, cruisingator2 said:

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/legal-regulatory/appeals-court-reverses-decision-cdc-cruise-rules-are-no-longer-binding
 

I personally do not expect any changes by the cruise lines. They’re currently the only adults in the room.

Amen….the cruise lines have already issued their procedures.  Be vaccinated or subject yourself to additional costs for additional testing, additional fees for insurance, additional mask requirements, and areas only vaccinated guests can go.

 

Regardless of the jockeying, cruise lines are going to sail safely, with or without directions from the CDC or FL.

[markeb]

13 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

So the CDC is now 0 for 2 in court?  Do they get one last shot?

DOJ will almost certainly appeal to the 11th Circuit as a whole. And either side will likely appeal to SCOTUS, if they lose.They kind of have to, as this comes down to Constitutional authority of the federal government. Oddly enough, there’s a decent argument that the grounds for relief pending appeal don’t exist as the cruise lines are cruising. 
 

Who knows what happens on further appeal. Other than there almost certainly will be appeals. But the immediate appeal to SCOTUS is moot for now. 

[iamaqt2]

17 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

So the CDC is now 0 for 2 in court?  Do they get one last shot?

It won't matter what happens in court.  The court of public opinion has spoken, and when that's where the money is, the cruise lines will follow.  They know that in order to get this restart right, they're going to have to place restrictions and protocols in place to mitigate their own damage.  Whether that's monetary (IE, paying for chartered flights to get infected passengers home) or punitive (making unvaccinated carry insurance to pay their own way home) the cruise lines can't afford another outbreak onboard.

So no matter what happens with this court case, in the short term over the next few months, it means nothing.

[NMTraveller]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

DOJ will almost certainly appeal to the 11th Circuit as a whole. And either side will likely appeal to SCOTUS, if they lose.They kind of have to, as this comes down to Constitutional authority of the federal government. Oddly enough, there’s a decent argument that the grounds for relief pending appeal don’t exist as the cruise lines are cruising. 
 

Who knows what happens on further appeal. Other than there almost certainly will be appeals. But the immediate appeal to SCOTUS is moot for now. 

The cruise lines are cruising, but few ships are cruising.  Florida still has a strong case going forward.  Anyways it will be interesting to find the outcome.

 

CDC is 0-3.  They lost an earlier court case not regarding cruising.

Edited July 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[abbydancer2003]

1 hour ago, iamaqt2 said:

It won't matter what happens in court.  The court of public opinion has spoken, and when that's where the money is, the cruise lines will follow.  They know that in order to get this restart right, they're going to have to place restrictions and protocols in place to mitigate their own damage.  Whether that's monetary (IE, paying for chartered flights to get infected passengers home) or punitive (making unvaccinated carry insurance to pay their own way home) the cruise lines can't afford another outbreak onboard.

So no matter what happens with this court case, in the short term over the next few months, it means nothing.

You just said it better than I could.  I find it interesting, as others have said, that Florida has gone to court to get cruising restarted.  It is interesting that not a single cruiseline joined him, although I believe Norwegian filed an amicus brief - on the side of the CDC.  On the other hand, the cruiselines don't like the conditions that Florida has imposed, and is end running them, because, as you state, public opinion is with the CDC at this time (once they allowed sailing to start).  I was a bit surprised that this case didn't get thrown out as either no longer relevant, or because the injured parties weren't part of the lawsuit.  But what do I know?  I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.

[iamaqt2]

6 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

The cruise lines are cruising, but few ships are cruising.  Florida still has a strong case going forward.  Anyways it will be interesting to find the outcome.

 

CDC is 0-3.  They lost an earlier court case not regarding cruising.

Few ships are cruising because staffing is an issue.  The cruiselines need to make sure staff is fully vaccinated.  Not  CDC issue.. a cruiseline requirement.

And cruises aren't fully booked.  There's  still hesitancy on these first cruises.  

[NMTraveller]

23 minutes ago, iamaqt2 said:

Few ships are cruising because staffing is an issue.  The cruiselines need to make sure staff is fully vaccinated.  Not  CDC issue.. a cruiseline requirement.

And cruises aren't fully booked.  There's  still hesitancy on these first cruises.  

When I try to book an upcoming cruise it tells me all rooms are sold out.

 

Also I believe that the cruise lines were attempting to follow the CDCs orders.  It takes them 3 months to staff up and get a ship running.

Edited July 24, 2021 by NMTraveller

[abbydancer2003]

My personal opinion is that cruiselines likely have 2 potential main objectives.

1.  Make as much money as quickly as possible to recover.

2.  Avoid a repeat of the Diamond Princess, even if that means a slower return to profitability.

 

I'm pretty sure they're all choosing objective 2.

 

 

[graphicguy]

Celebrity found a way around the FL rule, and is sailing at 95%+ vaccinated out of FLL.  They are also limiting their capacity to ~35%-40%.

 

Their policy….

 

“We will sail with a vaccinated crew and at least 95% fully vaccinated guests. All guests 16 years and older must be fully vaccinated with all COVID-19 vaccine doses administered at least 14 days prior to sailing.  As of August 1, 2021, all guests age 12 and older must be fully vaccinated. All UK guests sailing on Celebrity Silhouette 18 years and older must be fully vaccinated.

NOTICE: Proof of vaccination will be recorded and may be reviewed for signs of fraud. Unauthorized use of an official government agency seal such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention seal is a federal crime, and will be reported to the relevant government authorities.”

 

Carnival is doing the same.

 

NCL is requiring 100% vaccinated passengers,  but they haven’t cruised out of FL, yet.  They actually haven’t cruised at all, yet.

 

Royal is the one who is requiring additional money for additional testing and insurance against COVID for passengers.  In addition, they are limiting where unvaccinated passengers can go on the ship, and what they can do.

 

In short, the law suits are moot at this point.  The cruise lines have taken it upon themselves to self regulate and to sail safely.

 

With the current surge with the Delta strain, I don’t see any of these procedures changing any time soon.

 

 

[Oxo]

3 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Celebrity found a way around the FL rule, and is sailing at 95%+ vaccinated out of FLL.  They are also limiting their capacity to ~35%-40%.

 

Their policy….

 

“We will sail with a vaccinated crew and at least 95% fully vaccinated guests. All guests 16 years and older must be fully vaccinated with all COVID-19 vaccine doses administered at least 14 days prior to sailing.  As of August 1, 2021, all guests age 12 and older must be fully vaccinated. All UK guests sailing on Celebrity Silhouette 18 years and older must be fully vaccinated.

NOTICE: Proof of vaccination will be recorded and may be reviewed for signs of fraud. Unauthorized use of an official government agency seal such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention seal is a federal crime, and will be reported to the relevant government authorities.”

 

Carnival is doing the same.

 

NCL is requiring 100% vaccinated passengers,  but they haven’t cruised out of FL, yet.  They actually haven’t cruised at all, yet.

 

Royal is the one who is requiring additional money for additional testing and insurance against COVID for passengers.  In addition, they are limiting where unvaccinated passengers can go on the ship, and what they can do.

 

In short, the law suits are moot at this point.  The cruise lines have taken it upon themselves to self regulate and to sail safely.

 

With the current surge with the Delta strain, I don’t see any of these procedures changing any time soon.

 

 

Totally agree with the Cruise lines!

The Cruise lines are trying to recover and ensure that their passengers are as safe as possible.

Why can't they control who boards and who does not?

Would you or should you allow anyone in your house?

I'm not afraid to be asked the question

'Have you been vaccinated?'

People unvaccinated are dieing and wishing they were vaccinated after it is too late.

Can you get on a ship if you don't pay your fare? No, so if the Cruise line doesn't want your money if you are not vaccinated, NO CRUISE! 

 

[springfire]

38 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Celebrity found a way around the FL rule, and is sailing at 95%+ vaccinated out of FLL.  They are also limiting their capacity to ~35%-40%.

 

Their policy….

 

“We will sail with a vaccinated crew and at least 95% fully vaccinated guests. All guests 16 years and older must be fully vaccinated with all COVID-19 vaccine doses administered at least 14 days prior to sailing.  As of August 1, 2021, all guests age 12 and older must be fully vaccinated. All UK guests sailing on Celebrity Silhouette 18 years and older must be fully vaccinated.

NOTICE: Proof of vaccination will be recorded and may be reviewed for signs of fraud. Unauthorized use of an official government agency seal such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention seal is a federal crime, and will be reported to the relevant government authorities.”

 

Carnival is doing the same.

 

NCL is requiring 100% vaccinated passengers,  but they haven’t cruised out of FL, yet.  They actually haven’t cruised at all, yet.

 

Royal is the one who is requiring additional money for additional testing and insurance against COVID for passengers.  In addition, they are limiting where unvaccinated passengers can go on the ship, and what they can do.

 

In short, the law suits are moot at this point.  The cruise lines have taken it upon themselves to self regulate and to sail safely.

 

With the current surge with the Delta strain, I don’t see any of these procedures changing any time soon.

 

 

This is the best response to handle Florida cruises, the only other alternative is to leave the state.  That would be silly for Florida as many other places would welcome the cruise lines.  

Sure would be nice if everyone would do the right thing in regards to public safety. 

[wrk2cruise]

My only question no is can Celebrity deny boarding on the basis of vaccination status if they reach the 5% unvaccinated threshold given the FL vaccine passport law?   Honest question, not trying to provoke anything.

[Oxo]

7 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

My only question no is can Celebrity deny boarding on the basis of vaccination status if they reach the 5% unvaccinated threshold given the FL vaccine passport law?   Honest question, not trying to provoke anything.

I would think that any cruse line could refuse boarding of any passengers. Especially under these conditions.