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Is Royal Caribbean trying to get all Canadians to cancel their planned cruises?


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On 7/24/2021 at 4:02 PM, Russ Lomas said:

I just posted this in the Canadian group, but I would also like it here as well since I know that all members do not read that other group.  This information was shared with me from another thread here but may get overlooked by many.

 

Based on what is now posted on the RCCL website, you must have both of your vaccines (regardless of type) less than 42 days apart, otherwise you are considered unvaccinated by RCCL rules.  I do not think there are any (or VERY few Canadians) who were vaccinated less than 42 days apart due to supply shortages.

 

From the RCCL website below:

The U.S. CDC advises that a vaccine series should be completed with products from the same manufacturer, as the safety of a mixed-product series has not been fully evaluated. However, Royal Caribbean will accommodate guests who are vaccinated with mixed mRNA vaccines, such as 1 shot of Pfizer and 1 shot of Moderna. The doses must be separated by at least 28 days and not more than 42 days.

 

If you look at the CDC website, this is their recommendation:

You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 4-week interval as possible. However, your second dose may be given up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose, if necessary. You should not get the second dose early. There is currently limited information on the effectiveness of receiving your second shot earlier than recommended or later than 6 weeks after the first shot.

 

That will basically mean all Canadians are now considered UNVACCINATED according to the new info on the RCCL site.  This really screws us fully vaccinated Canadians who got two of the same vaccine as quick as our government permitted us to do so.

 

Our travel agent has reached out to RCCL for clarification, but I think Mr. Bayley's email needs to be flooded to get them to reverse this decision.

 

mbayley@rccl.com

Thank you for the email link...I sent my 'thoughts' on this new policy.  We're sailing Celebrity, and now we don't know if the policy with travel throughout the RCL fleet.

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13 hours ago, mabt said:

Okay, well if you're right about that, then the CDC is clearly in violation of the FDA's "absolute authority" in their administrative guidance.

 

I don't know how you square that circle, but I won't argue it further.  My assessment was based on first principles and logic.  What you're saying might be right, but it's not logically consistent.

 

So, not that I particularly want to reopen debate on this topic, but I like things to make sense, and this just... didn't.  So I went and had a look at the Emergency Use Authorization for Pfizer.  For those who are interested in this sort of thing:

 

Under "Scope of Authorization", it stipulates:

 

"The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine covered by this authorization will be
administered by vaccination providers and used only to prevent COVID-19 in
individuals ages 12 and older"

 

Under "Conditions of Authorization", section R, page 9, it says:

 

"Vaccination providers will administer the vaccine in accordance with the
authorization and will participate and comply with the terms and training required by
CDC’s COVID-19 Vaccination Program."

 

There are various other conditions mainly relating to handling, reporting, and documentation requirements.  However, there is nothing additional in the authorization itself relating to the specific terms of administration, aside from the statement above.

 

So the FDA kicks the issue of administration terms back to the CDC.  And the CDC's "COIVD-19 Vaccination Program" includes the Clinical Considerations document that has been referenced here several times, which recommends against, but ultimately allows for, both mixed mRNA doses and extended dosing intervals.

 

The Moderna letter of authorization is very similar.

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Letter I just recieved 

 

 

Thank you for contacting the executive office of Royal Caribbean International. Mr. Bayley received your email and I am pleased to respond on his behalf.

In response to your inquiry regarding the protocols for your cruise on the Allure of the Seas sailing on August 22, 2021. As long as both vaccines are from the same manufacturer, then the doses can be more than 42 days apart. You will be considered vaccinated.

Mr. Hartlin, thank you again for having contacted the Executive Office of Royal Caribbean International. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Sincerely,

Laura *****
Executive Office
Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

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Both Celebrity and Silverseas indicates that as long the vaccines are same type , you can sail vaccinated, no mention of dates

only RCL writes about the 42 days between vaccines 🤔

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1 hour ago, milkman3232 said:

Letter I just recieved 

 

 

Thank you for contacting the executive office of Royal Caribbean International. Mr. Bayley received your email and I am pleased to respond on his behalf.

In response to your inquiry regarding the protocols for your cruise on the Allure of the Seas sailing on August 22, 2021. As long as both vaccines are from the same manufacturer, then the doses can be more than 42 days apart. You will be considered vaccinated.

Mr. Hartlin, thank you again for having contacted the Executive Office of Royal Caribbean International. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Sincerely,

Laura *****
Executive Office
Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

 

So this is great news. 

 

@Ourusualbeach FYI -- I know you've been waiting for clarification yourself. I hope this 'counts'...

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22 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

So this is great news. 

 

@Ourusualbeach FYI -- I know you've been waiting for clarification yourself. I hope this 'counts'...

I have now seen several of these letters addressed to different people.  These along with MB's comments now have me thinking positively about those that have had 2 of the same vaccine regardless of the timing interval.

 

Personally, I think that this is as much as we can hope for in the short term.  I think that mixed doses, whether the same type or different types will take longer to resolve.

 

I guess I am close to being able to cancel my car rental and hotels in California over Christmas that I made as a back up plan...or perhaps I keep them as they can all be cancelled with 48 hours notice.

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5 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

not exactly.  Those under 12 who are not currently eligible to be vaccinated are permitted to sail but they have to do all of the required Covid tests multiple times.  RCCL will not charge if the individual is under 12 years of age (until those of that age can be vaccinated that is).

 

If you are deemed unvaccinated (as it appears we are even though we all got 2 Pfizer shots months ago, they just happen to be a few days more than the 42 days RCCL is saying is permitted - otherwise THEY are considering you UNVACCINATED).  You can still get on the ship BUT you have to pay for a PCR test before coming to the port and it has to be negative.  You have to pay RCCL for them to conduct 3 tests on you for a cost of about $175.  You must also pay for extra travel insurance and provide proof to them.  You cannot get off the ship in most ports unless you pay RCCL and are restricted to their shore excursions only.  And on top of all that, you are restricted on where you can go on the ship and what activities you can participate in.

 

Basically it means even if you followed your country's vaccine protocols, RCCL is making you pay an extra $500 or so and limiting what you can do, even if the CDC says you are considered fully vaccinated.

 

5 hours ago, smplybcause said:

 

Of course it doesn't apply to those too young to get the vaccine, but if you're old enough to get it any cruise besides those out of Florida require it - there is no alternative to test and get on if you're eligible to be vaccinated age wise. I see no exceptions for Canadian residents on non-Florida cruises.

 

Notice the "must provide proof" for all non-Florida ports.

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/do-i-need-a-covid-vaccine-to-cruise-what-counts-as-proof

I believe @smplybcause is correct. An unvaccinated person over the age of 12 can not board a Royal ship in Texas at all.

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The biggest issue I can see is that AstraZeneca has no approval (emergency or otherwise) in the US and judging by news stories today isn't likely to gain authorisation until year end at the earliest. That rules out most of the UK and a lot of Canada and the EU from visiting the US any time soon

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, hayleyp said:

The biggest issue I can see is that AstraZeneca has no approval (emergency or otherwise) in the US and judging by news stories today isn't likely to gain authorisation until year end at the earliest. That rules out most of the UK and a lot of Canada and the EU from visiting the US any time soon

Here are the numbers from Govt of Canada site, Astrazeneca is the minority vaccination...... our area is Moderna and Pfizer...Astro not distributed.

image.thumb.png.efea71ff519f13aa4c0a219688f4f6a7.png

 

Edited by Oceangoer2
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22 minutes ago, hayleyp said:

The biggest issue I can see is that AstraZeneca has no approval (emergency or otherwise) in the US and judging by news stories today isn't likely to gain authorisation until year end at the earliest. That rules out most of the UK and a lot of Canada and the EU from visiting the US any time soon

The CDC guidelines also cover vaccines approved by the WHO.  The downside is that it must be 2 AZ vaccines...very few Canadians received that.

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2 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The CDC guidelines also cover vaccines approved by the WHO.  The downside is that it must be 2 AZ vaccines...very few Canadians received that.

 

What I'm getting at is that I just can't see us being allowed to travel to the US at all whether cruising or not until AstraZeneca has some kind of approval. 

I'm in Scotland and my whole family apart from those under 18 have all received 2 AZ doses

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6 minutes ago, hayleyp said:

 

What I'm getting at is that I just can't see us being allowed to travel to the US at all whether cruising or not until AstraZeneca has some kind of approval. 

I'm in Scotland and my whole family apart from those under 18 have all received 2 AZ doses

Yes...Scotland has been receiving AZ....as I showed in the graph above, few in Canada have.  I posted this from the Royal C board.....when a poster asked the question....

******

 

Letter I just recieved (sic)

 

Thank you for contacting the executive office of Royal Caribbean International. Mr. Bayley received your email and I am pleased to respond on his behalf.

In response to your inquiry regarding the protocols for your cruise on the Allure of the Seas sailing on August 22, 2021. As long as both vaccines are from the same manufacturer, then the doses can be more than 42 days apart. You will be considered vaccinated.

Mr. xxxxxxx, thank you again for having contacted the Executive Office of Royal Caribbean International. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Sincerely,

Laura *****
Executive Office
Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

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1 minute ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Yes...Scotland has been receiving AZ....as I showed in the graph above, few in Canada have.  I posted this from the Royal C board.....when a poster asked the question....

******

 

Letter I just recieved (sic)

 

Thank you for contacting the executive office of Royal Caribbean International. Mr. Bayley received your email and I am pleased to respond on his behalf.

In response to your inquiry regarding the protocols for your cruise on the Allure of the Seas sailing on August 22, 2021. As long as both vaccines are from the same manufacturer, then the doses can be more than 42 days apart. You will be considered vaccinated.

Mr. xxxxxxx, thank you again for having contacted the Executive Office of Royal Caribbean International. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Sincerely,

Laura *****
Executive Office
Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

 

I have seen that and believe the whole days between doses issue has been resolved, perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction but at least we all understand the rules now.

The point I'm making is the bigger issue is actually being allowed to enter the US, the rules regarding cruising are totally irrelevant if you aren't allowed in to the country to begin with

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3 hours ago, milkman3232 said:

Letter I just recieved 

 

 

Thank you for contacting the executive office of Royal Caribbean International. Mr. Bayley received your email and I am pleased to respond on his behalf.

In response to your inquiry regarding the protocols for your cruise on the Allure of the Seas sailing on August 22, 2021. As long as both vaccines are from the same manufacturer, then the doses can be more than 42 days apart. You will be considered vaccinated.

Mr. Hartlin, thank you again for having contacted the Executive Office of Royal Caribbean International. We look forward to welcoming you onboard soon.

Sincerely,

Laura *****
Executive Office
Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd.

I am wondering when you are cruising, and how long did it take to get a reply?

Thanks,

Rhonda

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1 minute ago, milkman3232 said:

I sent the email on Sunday

 

Recieved response today

Thanks for the quick reply. We are booked on Serenade of The Seas on a b2b in September, not sure what will happen between now and then.

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43 minutes ago, hayleyp said:

 

I have seen that and believe the whole days between doses issue has been resolved, perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction but at least we all understand the rules now.

The point I'm making is the bigger issue is actually being allowed to enter the US, the rules regarding cruising are totally irrelevant if you aren't allowed in to the country to begin with

 

Canadians have had access via flying into the US throughout the pandemic as long as they submit a negative covid test.  The cruise restriction was the much bigger problem here.

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2 hours ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Here are the numbers from Govt of Canada site, Astrazeneca is the minority vaccination...... our area is Moderna and Pfizer...Astro not distributed.

image.thumb.png.efea71ff519f13aa4c0a219688f4f6a7.png

 

1.5 million of AZ came from USA plants that were going to expire as a loan , that needs to be repaid 

I wonder if the USA want it to be repaid 🤔😉

 

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On 7/27/2021 at 10:39 PM, flamingos said:

Taken out of context, and then the situation changed and for some reason, people keep going back to the original statement instead of everything. that. has. been. said. since. then.  

 

"

It shows footage from CBS’ "60 Minutes" on March 8, when Fauci said that, in general, people did not need to wear masks when they went outside. The video is framed by the words, "Dr. Fauci: No reason to be wearing a mask." 

The 40-second clip starts off with Fauci saying, "Right now, people should not be walking, there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask." He said masks do not provide the "perfect protection" against contracting the virus that people think. The clip ends with Fauci saying, "When you think masks, you should think of healthcare providers needing them."

The clip ends with Fauci wearing a mask. The Facebook user who posted this video in June said Americans are "being toyed with."

It is not apparent to many viewers that Fauci’s statements were cherry-picked, and the video is four months old."

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jul/08/facebook-posts/video-shows-outdated-face-mask-guidance-dr-anthony/

This is one interview.  It was said many times by many folks.  There have been articles about the “mistakes” they made in the original communication.  I flew just before they shut everything down and I was watching closely.  They (govt leaders of the scientific community) were most definitely stating that masks weren’t needed for average people.  Of course I didn’t buy there nonsensical argument then not do I trust their communication now.  One thing is clear, the CDC and Fauci are very good at sending mixed messages and are happy to create policy that doesn’t follow scientific findings when it is convenient.   This isn’t a myth and it hasn’t been debunked. 

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On 7/25/2021 at 3:34 AM, twangster said:

 

Regardless - none of that changes the science.    Sorry my home country screwed up so badly but they did, leaving some of its citizens in a position where their protection from the virus isn't fully understood yet.    

 

When vaccines were first becoming available the Florida Governor suggested at the time we look at giving more people their first shot and delaying the second shot so that more people could get a first shot.  Everyone without exception attacked him for being a fool and not following manufacturer's guidance.   Canada comes along and does exactly that.  Now Canadians want to change the guidance without any studies just because that's what Canada did.  

 

Policy isn't created to suit the masses or because that is what some other countries had to do.  Policy is created based on the scientific knowledge that is available.  As that scientific knowledge evolves, so does policy.

 

US residents choosing not to vaccinate has nothing to do with this.  Why bring that into the discussion?  

 

Canadians still can't travel for leisure purposes across the US border.  Sorry you don't qualify for cruising from a select number of secondary US ports.  Cruising during the restart is not going to be for everyone and not everyone will qualify.  

I take issue with your statement that NACI and Health Canada just changed the rules - and your comment seems to imply "without consideration of consequences". This is completely untrue and there were two studies published and were given consideration prior to the policy change. 

 

There is, in fact, science to support mixing and matching vaccines, and also to support a longer duration in between vaccines.  The science actually shows a more robust immune response when mixing the two types of vaccinations (AZ and mRNA) when compared to a person having two of the same type of vaccine (2 AZ or 2 mRNA).   Perhaps manufacturers of vaccines have a selfish reason to not encourage people to take two different vaccines, hence no instruction to support this - researchers have no such motivation as their primary goal is to prove the safety and support people having maximum immunity in the interest of public health.

 

I couldn't agree more with your comment that it's not a one size fits all system right now and you nailed this.   Various authorities will operate at their own speed, but at the end of the day if we cannot achieve global herd immunity, travel restrictions will continue for years and years.

 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

 

 

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Saw this question about long delays between same doses asked and Michael Bayley responded on his FB page. I’d screen shot and hope not to use it when boarding the ship.  Who knows if it will change but it is right from him.
 

BE4BB67F-AC2D-4113-9095-D173914237C2.thumb.jpeg.e9bb222abc7a145bd74df069734478cf.jpeg

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