Firenze

[Eli_6]

I looked on Costa's website and it appears that her last sailing is January 21, 2024. How long do yall think the conversion will take?  (I would guess the Venezia would give us an idea--anyone know how long she is in dry dock?) Do you think there will be a transatlantic and/or panama canal transit to get the ship from Europe to Long Beach after the conversion?  

[ohioNCLcruiser]

1 hour ago, Eli_6 said:

I looked on Costa's website and it appears that her last sailing is January 21, 2024. How long do yall think the conversion will take?  (I would guess the Venezia would give us an idea--anyone know how long she is in dry dock?) Do you think there will be a transatlantic and/or panama canal transit to get the ship from Europe to Long Beach after the conversion?  

This ship can't go through Panama Canal due to the hanging lifeboats so cross that off the list. If she goes around the horn that would be a very long cruise. I'm guessing she will position there empty like the Panorama did.

[CruiseAdict218]

2 hours ago, Eli_6 said:

I looked on Costa's website and it appears that her last sailing is January 21, 2024. How long do yall think the conversion will take?  (I would guess the Venezia would give us an idea--anyone know how long she is in dry dock?) Do you think there will be a transatlantic and/or panama canal transit to get the ship from Europe to Long Beach after the conversion?  

Where does the last cruise leave from? I wonder if they will cancel any because they cancelled a huge chunk of Venezia’s cruises but also gave them plenty of time for conversion work (which has probably started based on what John Heald posted) and will probably enter dry dock at the very end. 

[tidecat]

Carnival Miracle's last Long Beach sailing (for now at least) is May 5-8, 2024. I would suspect Firenze would start May 12, 2024 and generally run 7-day cruises. Panorama does have some 6-day and 8-day cruises mixed in her program as well, so Firenze may have to do some of those just out of necessity. A Sunday/Thursday/Tuesday rotation could work as well, or even just a Thursday/Sunday rotation if Carnival wanted to offer shorter cruises.

 

I think all of the open Costa bookings will sail as scheduled, especially since cruise lines don't typically change out crew during the holidays. The worst that could happen is that Firenze begins in June or July instead of May.

[tidecat]

9 minutes ago, CruiseAdict218 said:

Where does the last cruise leave from? I wonder if they will cancel any because they cancelled a huge chunk of Venezia’s cruises but also gave them plenty of time for conversion work (which has probably started based on what John Heald posted) and will probably enter dry dock at the very end. 

The last sailing for Costa Firenze is a 14-night roundtrip sailing from Savona, Italy on January 7, 2024. Even if drydock work doesn't start until February and takes six weeks, there will still be plenty of time to kill for a mid-May arrival in Long Beach.

[At7Seas]

Welcome to the Costa Board now… The Venezia four weeks ago was docked in Civitavecchia (Rome) and outside no conversion happened at all. She remained completely in Costa style. The ship is just below four years old of which she was not in use quite long through covid. I could imagine of course that the many Chinese signage will be removed, since the Venezia as well as the Firenze were built for sailing in China, where Costa was the big player before the pandemic. A market that completely disappeared. Instead last year “Costa by Carnival” was invented, so it is not just sending another ship from one brand to the other within Carnival Corporation and Plc, which among others owns both Carnival Cruises and Costa Crociere. How much Costa remains when vessels will be sailing now exclusively for the US market instead of the Chinese market we will see. Right now the Venezia isn’t dry-docked either, but in Italian waters next to Sardinia.

[CruiseAdict218]

6 hours ago, At7Seas said:

Welcome to the Costa Board now… The Venezia four weeks ago was docked in Civitavecchia (Rome) and outside no conversion happened at all. She remained completely in Costa style. The ship is just below four years old of which she was not in use quite long through covid. I could imagine of course that the many Chinese signage will be removed, since the Venezia as well as the Firenze were built for sailing in China, where Costa was the big player before the pandemic. A market that completely disappeared. Instead last year “Costa by Carnival” was invented, so it is not just sending another ship from one brand to the other within Carnival Corporation and Plc, which among others owns both Carnival Cruises and Costa Crociere. How much Costa remains when vessels will be sailing now exclusively for the US market instead of the Chinese market we will see. Right now the Venezia isn’t dry-docked either, but in Italian waters next to Sardinia.

Carnival brand ambassador John said she was undergoing wet dock refreshment at Cagliari then will probably move to a dry dock to have the new livery applied. He’s expected to fly out to give an update on the process as things finalize. 

[At7Seas]

Indeed, there are a lot of uncertainties about this new project "Costa by Carnival". When I saw the Venezia moored in Civitavecchia some decks were completely lit in the morning hours, others dark (I passed by during daybreak and after sunset). This could possibly be taken as a hint that perhaps some internal works took place. But as I wrote outside everything remained completely unchanged, this includes the name as Costa Venezia, all remained in the typical style of this brand, as well as no “Costa by Carnival” slogan on her as pictures in advertisements show. Tracking data show her since end of December in the container part of Cagliari port once a while, but also anchored close to the Sardinian shore. I am aware that there is a Navy shipyard in town, but not about any other being able to carry out works this scale locally. Fincantieri as builder for sure has no shipyard in Cagliari, for major works later in a ship’s lifetime often Chantier Naval de Marseille is used by all daughter companies of Carnival group, at least if works are done in the Mediterranean. “Probably move to a dry dock” states exactly this uncertainty as well, just as I expressed with my own “we will see”. I only added my personal observation because there is hardly any information released by Costa and Carnival.

[CruiseAdict218]

1 hour ago, At7Seas said:

Indeed, there are a lot of uncertainties about this new project "Costa by Carnival". When I saw the Venezia moored in Civitavecchia some decks were completely lit in the morning hours, others dark (I passed by during daybreak and after sunset). This could possibly be taken as a hint that perhaps some internal works took place. But as I wrote outside everything remained completely unchanged, this includes the name as Costa Venezia, all remained in the typical style of this brand, as well as no “Costa by Carnival” slogan on her as pictures in advertisements show. Tracking data show her since end of December in the container part of Cagliari port once a while, but also anchored close to the Sardinian shore. I am aware that there is a Navy shipyard in town, but not about any other being able to carry out works this scale locally. Fincantieri as builder for sure has no shipyard in Cagliari, for major works later in a ship’s lifetime often Chantier Naval de Marseille is used by all daughter companies of Carnival group, at least if works are done in the Mediterranean. “Probably move to a dry dock” states exactly this uncertainty as well, just as I expressed with my own “we will see”. I only added my personal observation because there is hardly any information released by Costa and Carnival.

But what are the "uncertainties"? Quite a few details have been released, what public areas will be changed over, what won't be. Cruises from NYC are being sold and at a great pace. They pulled the ship out of service on December 1, and doesn't reenter service till the end of May, so there's plenty of time for work to be slowly carried out. There's no reason for them to rush all the work now when they can do it closer to May and still have plenty of time for it to be finished. The ship can always reposition quickly to any dry dock yard but Chantier Naval de Marseille isn't the only yard they used for major work. 

 

I'm not sure what more details you would need? If this wasn't going to happen the ship wouldn't have been pulled out of service for so long, maybe for a shorter period of time like Diadema and/or sent else where like to South America. Carnival isn't going to backtrack now and potentially lose a lot of money when they can't afford to.

[At7Seas]

To begin with the entire concept is not clearly communicated. I have no doubts that “Costa by Carnival” will start, but it is completely uncertain how this project will look like. Is the intention integrating ships made for China into the Carnival fleet and it is a marketing trick to call possible differences between Carnival Cruises and Costa by Carnival “Italian touch”? Or is the intention making Costa on the US market more popular, since the line has hardly any US customers? There is a huge difference between letting the brand Carnival grow and an attempt to make Costa popular in another part of the world. Or doing something completely different I didn’t think about.
 
Of course looking at American sites teaches us about the planned sailings (the Venezia cruises are not listed by the European sites selling Carnival Cruises and she is no longer listed under Costa). I completely agree that the places to be visited are a very important part of a cruise, for me personally even the most important part. But this doesn’t take away that the entire concept needs to fit as well. Again talking about myself, I am not convinced of the “funship” concept. I also avoid a cruise line that includes only buffets in the price of the cruise. Everybody has these likes and dislikes, so the concept is definitely important. “Fun Italian style” as advertised doesn’t answer any question, that one need tell in a press release that the sockets will be replaced shows how little is actually said (BTW, if you might not know, every Costa vessel has for guest use sockets for continental European and US plugs next to each other). Just as an example: creation of an adult area. This is filling a press release, but is this new for the Venezia? No! That burgers American style are announced might be owed at the aimed home market of course, but this also leads to the question how Italian Costa by Carnival will be, just a decoration with Italian names of venues? Or are just tiny American accents on a purely Italian ship planned?
 
After so many questions to the facts. That the Venezia left service so early for working on her slowly is just not true. The original plan was to let her sail in the Med until Easter before she should undergo some works and to start Costa by Carnival with her. Costa communicated that the planned sailings from December 22 to April 23 from Turkey were cancelled because their aimed customers can’t participate in this cruise. This cryptic announcement simply means that guests from Ukraine and Russia didn’t book. The cancelled cruises from Istanbul might explain as well, why the Venezia wasn’t sent to South America - where are already three Costa ships during this winter by the way.

[CruiseAdict218]

I think its a little bit of both, use the ships were they can generate more profit as well as pushing the Costa name back in North America but the latter probably to a lesser degree given the ships are changing names but keeping their yellow Costa funnels. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by only the buffet is included? But the concept won't be for everyone and neither is "The Fun Ship" style. Throw in a few American concepts but outside of that what would you consider to be a true Italian style? There is a new concept restaurant coming, but I think it will really be the decor that gives it the "wow" factor in this case. 

 

It's not going to be an entire huge brand created but like a sub brand between the two, when you think about it, how different is the concept of using the ships in Asia, outside of specialized signage and what not. 

 

But you are right, I forgot that was the reason for that season to be cancelled given everything that is going on in Europe. But all in all, its a good trial concept that has never been done before and certainly has potential to really be something, give lack of information. I'm excited to just sail on the ship regardless of the marketing concept. 

[At7Seas]

You write in your first sentence what you think the concept could be. Exactly this is my point, we don‘t know a lot by information officially released, we need to close the huge remaining gaps by guessing. Even about changing names I found different information, sometimes Costa Venezia is used as future name, sometimes Carnival Venezia.
 
My comment about the cruise line offering only buffet included and all restaurants as charged extra, having ships without classic MDR, was to explain that I want to know what to expect before booking. To be clear, this is neither the brand Costa nor Carnival Cruises of course. The many questions you find on these boards make clear that a lot of people want to have more information than offered by cruiselines before booking, regardless whether a brand exist since more than 100 years or didn’t sail yet.
 
If you really want to know what Italian style is just go to Italy and experience life there. Feel it, take part in it. Costa mirrors this very naturally at sea, of course, it is a product made in Italy by Italians for Italian and international guests. When I cruised on another line and visited the Italian restaurant on board staff was completely confused that I selected the courses the in Italy typical way. Thinking pasta could be the only main course is a mistake even an absolute beginner shouldn‘t do. This is a small example of Italian style tried - but failed. If food, drinks, entertainment, the entire cruise would be Italian only by the scene of the ship, if everything would be dominated by (of course not limited to) the already quoted American style burgers it wouldn’t be Italian style, regardless the names of the venues.
 
Costa has researched the wishes of their Chinese guests and used these data to build the Venezia as their first for the Chinese market built cruise ship, followed by the Firenze. Someone described the result as casino surrounded by a shopping mall to bring the differences to the point. Okay, most cruise ships have a casino, all Costas have one, but making it the central attraction aboard is something new for Costa - and the two new ships built for the European market the same time are not built like this concept either. And the existing ships if deployed to Asia for several years were reconfigured for China and rebuilt when returning to Europe. When the Fortuna left to sail in Asia decor elements were removed to avoid possible misunderstandings between cultures. Differences can be found both in the complete layout and in the tiny detail. When such an effort is done for serving the Chinese target market it would be surprising if it wouldn’t have been done for the US market now as well. The aim that Americans should feel at home was communicated, but about nearly everything beyond this announcement we need to guess again.

 

[tidecat]

@At7Seas I think you're trying to read way too much into things by what Carnival has said or not said.

 

First, if not most importantly, this will be a Carnival, not Costa, cruise. Those who sail on it will earn points towards Carnival's VIFP program, which was communicated at the onset. All communications have referred to the ship being crewed by a Carnival crew. "Costa by Carnival" has given way to "Carnival Fun Italian Style" which has been legally trademarked. Even the first few sailings were originally sold as sailings on Carnival Magic.

 

Venezia and Firenze are also Vista-class ships like Carnival Vista, Carnival Horizon, and Carnival Panorama. There obviously is some flexibility on a ship that large, but ultimately all five ships have practically identical layouts.

 

There are certain things to expect from every Carnival sailing. One of those is that the main dining rooms are complimentary (with a few select upcharge items). One specialty dining restaurant hasn't been completely revealed, although we know some things about it from the reveal Christine Duffy did in New York. At this point all of the alternative dining venues have been revealed; they are not huge departures from what is installed on the rest of Carnival's fleet, aside from replacing Blue Iguana Cantina with a Mexican-Italian fusion concept.

 

Obviously Italian theming will never replace the experience of going to Italy. It's just that theming is now being deployed in the American market instead of the Chinese market.

 

I suspect the names will be legally changed as the ships go into drydock to get any required hull maintenance and have the new livery applied. That was when Costa Luminosa became Carnival Luminosa. Costa Venezia was going to have to go to drydock anyway, as was Costa Firenze, which will still be in Costa service until January 2024.  Even if CARNIVAL FUN ITALIAN STYLE^TM winds up being a failure, we're probably stuck with it until 2028-29 when Venezia and Firenze come up for drydock again.

 

[At7Seas]

Well, my central point is that there is hardly any information and I have quite a lot of questions. What do we know?
 
Fact is that “Costa by Carnival” is announced as something completely new. The expression “Fun Italian Style” was used for promotion already in the first official announcement, it isn’t newer than the new Costa by Carnival. Protecting this as trademark should be no surprise, because everything else would be a stupidity. This doesn’t take away that I am not sure what kind of public should be attracted with these words. But if you look at the graphics below both brands Carnival and Costa are read on the Costa Venezia (I use here the name as displayed), as well as the mentioned slogan. Also the outer design of the ship is a clear combination of both brands. It is no photograph, when I saw the Venezia last month the only blue on the bow was the name and the picture was used earlier. It wasn’t made by someone who just used his own fantasy, this illustration was officially used in a press release as well:
 

 
One can‘t compare this project to the full integration as with the Luminosa lately, which never was said to sail under the new concept. Being a new concept is not my interpretation, but part of the official statement. There is a very simple reason why we should believe this statement. It doesn’t make sense promoting a new concept for the same old product, it is way harder to sell. The easy way would have been to tell customers that the brand they are familiar with will offer cruises on a wonderful new ship with an unique atmosphere. The Luminosa was definitely not the first ship that left Costa, regardless whether sold to a third party or transferred to another brand and / or subsidiary of Carnival Corporation and Plc, but up to now this always happened with full integration into the new brand, often enough with a completely new name. The neoRiviera got a new name and a full new design, although the use as AIDAmira was from the very beginning planned for a short time while waiting for a newly built ship. Up to now older vessels left the Costa fleet after being at least a decade in service, this is different now, since the Venezia is only four years old. That a type of ship is used more than once within Carnival group and sometimes beyond is absolutely no surprise. If the other ships of this type are comparable in factual use indeed - and have despite of the disadvantage described above success on the US market - I can understand why exactly these ships will sail from American ports.
 
Having restaurants included in the fare is nothing special for the brand Carnival, most cruise lines do so and Costa offers exactly the same. Not having any change is no proof of becoming completely integrated in Carnival, while the owners say the opposite. A “complimentary” restaurant as proof for a full integration into Carnival I would regard as reading too much into things, for me this is another sign that we lack information. And within Carnival group you earn points with the brand you book with, not the company that actually owns the ship, AIDA is besides Costa the second brand of the company Costa Crociere SpA and sailing AIDA doesn‘t result in Costa points, neither automatically, nor on request. Just as the brands P&O and Cunard are handled separately, although both belong to the same subsidiary in the UK. Or the US based brands…
 
Running cruises from the USA with staff of Carnival Cruises has at least two obvious advantages. Costa Europe staff knows both Italian and international guests and their special wishes, those having intensive contact with guests need not only to be fluent in Italian, but in English as well and have to have some basic skills in the other standard languages aboard, while Carnival Cruises staff has mainly to be familiar with the needs of US guests. Costa Asia had different requirements than Costa Europe of course, although these were just departments of the same company. Already from this point it makes sense to keep the staff with the target market they are best qualified for. Besides the USA have extreme strict and complicated immigration rules, which causes problems to cruise lines regarding staff on cruise ships. Using staff already sailing US ports could make it much easier, I suppose.
 
All this does not tell us how much Costa, or if you prefer how much Italy, will remain in this new project. It is the same with the information that the Venezia perhaps might be dry docked after most works will be ready. Besides a challenging logic such a statement contains zero information. There are reasons to believe so, but we can’t call a vague statement what might be done a fact. And exactly this is my point, what are the plans? We only know that it won‘t be a full integration of the two ships into Carnival Cruises. Planning something else is one of the few facts clearly announced, which does not take away that plans will be changed at some point. I am not reading too much into what has been said or not, I have questions about what has been left out. As I said before repeatedly: lack of information. Everything officially said about the ship itself your refer to was more or less a description of what already exists, things that mostly remain unchanged. I really can reduce the real changes to American style burgers and US sockets. The name of the MDR doesn‘t explain the concept. Is the fact that the name of venues remain in Italian language everything? Introducing a ship on a new market is fine, but it doesn‘t answer at all what the new concept will be like - or for example why it is exclusively for sale in America, while all the other Carnival vessels can be booked in Europe. So I only can quote and ask the questions I have. And obviously I am not the only one who has questions, as the pure existence of this thread proves. This has been the reason why I told about my personal observations, here I definitely know something.

Edited January 22, 2023 by At7Seas

[tidecat]

Part of the reason of the Costa by Carnival/Carnival Fun Italian Style concept is that it doesn't require a more expensive rebranding.  Yes, some changes are being made, but Carnival isn't having to spend $200 Million like they did with the Sunshine/Destiny conversion. This is important since Carnival doesn't really have the financial flexibility to rebrand ships right now. The only thing that really is a bit of a head scratcher is not repainting the funnel even to the "throwback" Carnival design.

 

Since Costa Luminosa had the same architect as most of Carnival's fleet (Joe Farcus), she  required less work for rebranding. The decor on Luminosa is more in line with Carnival Spirit than Costa Firenze.

[At7Seas]

As far as I know Luminosa kept her chimney in original shape, but it was repainted to fit into the Carnival brand style. So even for this there is a precedent - but obviously not planned with the Venezia. And I am not even scratching my head, because I don’t expect this could be an accident.
 
Who ever said that promoting something as a completely new concept - with all risks regarding acceptance - would be cheaper than telling customers about an innovation within the existing brand? Challenging existent customers without a strategy is no good idea, offering a new product with a special design within the known brand would definitely be the easiest way - and much cheaper. I don’t think that the new concept is based on thoughtless decisions. Avoiding costs of re-branding by introducing a new brand? This doesn’t make much sense economically.
 
When talking about economics there could be another interesting possibility. An intelligent strategy instead of stumbling around because Carnival management fears the own existing customers could not accept the architecture of a ship. This thought is based on factual communicated details and I combine these with marketing strategies only. It still doesn’t answer how the concept will be realised at all, but is at least a possible answer to the why. This leaves no questions open, no head scratching, just requires a consequent implementation. Costa has a too high capacity through the Chinese market breaking away something needed to be done. Even after all changes planned as today the European fleet of Costa 2024 will have a larger capacity than in 2019 and the ships will be younger. Sounds as being prepared for a healthy growth within Europe. Costa however openly communicated that there are European nationalities no longer booking their cruises, so again cabins are waiting for guests. Making the name Costa popular among US cruisers through Costa by Carnival would be an intelligent strategy within the group. In European waters Costa is the largest brand within Carnival Corporation and Plc accommodating English speaking guests. I don’t know whether this has been the strategy behind the concept, but with a growing US market it would be a brilliant idea for selling more cruises in the Med and other regions where Costa has a strong presence without sending another ship of Carnival Cruises or another American brand over. Smuggling another brand into the minds of Carnival guests is no reason to scratch my head, definitely makes sense economically, and a positive experience is a really great promotion.

[UPNYGuy]

This really is just a way for carnival corp to utilize excess (and currently unprofitable) tonnage in a way that makes sense. If it is a success, they *may* bring more ships over.  In NY, it will compete with MSC (and the NYC market has a ton of italian-americans to draw from). My understanding is that this is going to be quite literally a  Costa ship with a Carnival touch (crew, entertainment, etc). Very little drydocking is being done aside from the updated livery and some of the funship 2.0 stuff (https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=3389) link explains funship 2.0 stuff

Edited February 6, 2023 by UPNYGuy

[UPNYGuy]

On 1/23/2023 at 4:36 AM, At7Seas said:

As far as I know Luminosa kept her chimney in original shape, but it was repainted to fit into the Carnival brand style. 

 

this is correct. 

[UPNYGuy]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:15 AM, At7Seas said:

Well, my central point is that there is hardly any information and I have quite a lot of questions. What do we know?
 

 

 

this is a video presented by Christine Duffy, president of Carnival Cruise Line and Glenn Aprile, Director of New Build Product Development for Venezia.

 

[At7Seas]

Everybody familiar with Costa understands through this promotion video that only very few changes are planned. A lot of “very new” or “very special” things are simply typical for Costa ships. Even a lot of venues keep their names, only a few things are adjusted to Carnival.
 
I completely agree that ships should sail - and if demand is right now from the US market ships should sail there. Regardless that there are signs that Asia might go cruising again. Of course there are definitely no Costa branded ships available for this as soon as the Firenze left the fleet. For the time being the Serena can pick up again, but this vessel is hard needed for Costa’s bread and butter cruises in the Caribbean during winter 2023/24 already. They already miss a ship for the usual tour to the Canaries, which is done with the Firenze for the last in January 2024. There are no signs that Costa can’t fill the ships planned to sail for the European market in summer 2023 and the Firenze is larger than the later returning Serena. There are simply no special promotions with give away prices as Costa does when the sale is slow.
 
And if you ask me MSC in the same port forms no serious risk for Costa - I can’t know the new project of course, so I compare the known. MSC has neither an Italian touch (they try being a compromise between international and Italian and fail with both) nor reaches the quality by far. They are just cheap. I personally regard MSC being a ferry boat line one takes if no better option is available - or too expensive.

[gkbiiii]

The vessels are amazing, I predict that boy NYC & LA will be owned by these two ships.  Simply a class by themselves!

[UPNYGuy]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:18 PM, At7Seas said:

And if you ask me MSC in the same port forms no serious risk for Costa - I can’t know the new project of course, so I compare the known. MSC has neither an Italian touch (they try being a compromise between international and Italian and fail with both) nor reaches the quality by far. They are just cheap. I personally regard MSC being a ferry boat line one takes if no better option is available - or too expensive.

as someone who sails on multiple lines, I would disagree with that assessment. I have sailed in The Haven repeatedly, as well as Oceania, and do not have any issue with the MSC product.