DukeFamily Posted September 17, 2006 #1 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Just curious and nosey! I don't know a thing about art and wouldn't give $5 for most of what I see, and I certainly wouldn't spend money on art on a cruise ship! I've heard people talk who make the art auction a big part of their trip and spend thousands!! I mean, who are these people?? Are you one of them? If you've bought something, did you get a good deal? I mean, did you get it appraised back home and find that you really scored? Or once the free champagne wore off did you have buyer's remorse? I just gotta know these things! :D Okay, so I don't "gotta" know, I'm just home alone and bored! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearySweet2Cruise Posted September 17, 2006 #2 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I watched the auction and drank the free champane (sp) as they bring it constantly while the auction is in progress. I went for the free drinks, but found it interesting people were paying 500- 5000 for a picture that I thought my 12 yr old could have painted better.. HOLY CRAP was I amazed at the prices for that stuff... There are several threads if you are interested by searching park west art gallery on the search. So many people have said it is not worth anything in value expect what the painting means to you. The appraisal means nothing unless you have a buyer willing to pay you for it. I have read horror stories where people spend thousands thinking they will get these pics home and make a huge profit... and then find they are pretty worthless. I am not an art expert in any way, just what I have read on the boards and have heard from others. There was one painting that I actually liked and would have bought ONLY because it was pretty, but the bid was 80.00 and even that was too much in my book. You do not getthe pictures to take home withyou at time of sale, they are mass produced in some factory and they ship them to you for a fee of like 35.00 extra dollars, and framing was something like an additional 170.00... way tooo expensive for my taste.. I can do alot of other things with that money besides by a copy of a painting. just my 0.02! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banchote Posted September 17, 2006 #3 Share Posted September 17, 2006 i've spent a small fortune in art and at the art auctions at sea. it's important to note a couple of things about art. beauty really is in the eyes of the beholder. becasue park west is the largest art auctioneer in the world they create and drive the market for alot of the up and coming artists (before you freak out about this, this is how an artist gets known, same thing happned with dali, chagall, picasso and still happens today) what i mean by this is they talk up and really push the newer artists becasue they forecast they will be collectible artists down the road, and because park west pretty much controls the market on the newer people they bring on (exclusive agreements etc.) they are able to help drive the market. it's really neat. it's important to know and understand this when you are looking at any art, please make sure you like it, you're sober and it's worth value to you. if you expect to return home and sell for a profit immdiately you're pretty much out of luck. down the road it's a good possibility. also it doesn't hurt to do your homework, if you like salvador dali check out his gallery in st. petersburg florida or london or paris and speak to the curators there, you'll realize very quickly park west is giving you a good deal (notice i didn't say a GREAT deal) remember they are still there to make money. also remember that half of your buyers premium is given to the cruise line and that for an auctioneer to stay on board they have to sell sell sell. and if you buy buy buy they will give you perks etc. the last cruise we were on the head park west auctioneer was on board and found out i was coming and made a personal trip out to find me on board and ensure i was coming to the auction it was really funny he knew me ahead of time. but know what you are getting into prior to doing it. also once you spend 25k on a cruise you'll start to get invited to the land auctions and called a vip and you'll actully get a discount on the hammer price. price at sea and at land has now been stablised as of 2006 (at sea used to be a better deal). once you've spent a good deal of money with park west they start to invite you to their true vip functions --examples are all incluve cruises that they foot the bill for, a trip to europe, a trip to the gallery for a weekend, napa valley, las vegas etc. in june of this year park west flew us out for 5 days in napa valley, they paid for our flight, 5 star restaurant or catered meals, 5 start hotel accomodation accomodation (our first night was in the sofitel san fran bay hotel, it was awesome), took us on wine tours, and excellent entertainment every night (personal appearance and singing by former cast members of the phantom of the opera performing a section of the show) and all kinds of freebies. not to mention continually pliing us with booze and food. the only cost i had that weekend was 10 bucks for an internet connection and even that i found out afterwards they would have paid for. now OF COURSE you're expected to drop money on an event like that. in that case it was a min of 25k and if you didn't it isn't a big deal you're just not invited back to another event -- remember they have to make money on you and a tirp like that to napa bringing canadians down and taking care of us the way they did is easily 7k us if not more. so they expect you to spend 3 times what they are on you. (fairly good rule). on a lot of art auction cruises (vip events) they actually rent the ship for the cruise and will take you art galleries during the port days to show you the works and the pricing proving they are giving you a better price. once you start going to these vip auctions you also get heftier discounts (at one event the dropped the buyers premium to almost nothing, at another it was 20% down on the art and finance the rest through them at 2% for 6 months up to 6% for 2 years simple interest (ie no compounding)). also at these exclusive events they will bring out amazing pieces such as an oil on canvas renoir, or a finger painting by picasso or the sacra biblia and other works. pieces that will sell in front of you for 400-500k it's mind blowing to see this stuff sell. finally after all of that -- say you buy a piece and you no longer want, you can trade it back to park west who will then give you the hammer price you paid for it and you can upgrade to something nicer (again they are there to make money on you and so it is a trade up not a return) so yes i'm a big fan of park west, but realize that's just me, my point is this: know what you're buying, enjoy what you're buying and go from there. if you become a serious art collector than all the better -- but it's all the better for you. anyone that expects to sell their art to turn a profit has to realize that art is like real estate ( you need to hold on to it to realize your gains) and you need to sell it in groups to an organization. in 20 years i know i can call an art broker or park west and offer up my collection and have the confidence that it'll be purchased from me. to answer a specific comment from above the art isn't mass produced in a factory they are not "copies" they are lithographs, or seriagraphs or muliti media or originals or etchings etc. this what all artists from rembrandt right down to dali to peter max have employed for generations. if an artist only made an original his work would never be known except by a small minority of people. the picassos and dali's of the world are known yes for their originals but also for the pieces they created that people could purchase. it's no difference than goign into an art gallery on land. except a land gallery will always want to sell you an original becasue they can charge more for it (which is absolutely a correct thing to do) and they will never knock a seriagraph/lithograph etc. in fact if you go to the picasso museum or the dali museums in london and paris you'll notice that a majority of the works they have on the walls are lithographs etc. and these are run by the respective dali and picasso foundations themselves, you'll also notice the majority of the work is unsigned. art collecting is truly about collecting first you have to understand the rules of the game. if you simply want a nice piece for your wall, then stick to the lower priced works, if you want a one of kind spend some money. either way it should be something you totally enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiorsea Posted September 17, 2006 #4 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I always thought the Art Auctions were sort of silly, but this last cruise (on Explorer of the Seas), I found myself looking for an actvity and headed down to the Art Auction. We were furnishing a rental cabin in Gatlinburg Tennessee, and sure enough I found 5 perfect pictures for the cabin, and the prices really were great. The Thomas Kinkade limited editiion prints would have retailed for $800+ at home and I got them for an average cost of $175 (maybe people don't want to buy pictures of the mountains when they are on a cruise, but it worked for me). The head of the Art Auction can definitely deal on them anything you like, after I had purchased a few, I spoke with them and lowered the cost substantially on one or two I liked and had not bought. My only regret was that I wish I had them framed myself. The framing was nice, but not that nice, and a few of them were slightly damaged during shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTJ Posted September 17, 2006 #5 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Every 7 day cruise my I've been on with my GF she has bought something usually over $500 at the art auction. I really don't understand why but she really gets into it. What's funny is, the pieces show up at her house in a big tub about 2 weeks later and she never opens them up. Right now she has a stack of tubes in a back bedroom. I enjoy the show and champ. and give advice on what I like, but that's it. I usually try to find out what she really likes then casually pick at whats wrong with it. She will eventually tell me to go away and buys it anyway. I write it off as excite of the cruise because she would never in a million years be buying that stuff on land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsluvr Posted September 17, 2006 #6 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Never have. Never will. Rembrandt used lithographs? Huh? Most folks who puchase art on the ships are convinced they are purchasing collectibles that will appreciate in value...maybe so, but I am skeptical. Other folks just simply like what they buy. It's their money, and they enjoy the experience, so that's cool. I just wish the cruise lines would move the Circus out of the Centrum so the other 2,000 people on board could enjoy the space. JMHO LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hflors Posted September 17, 2006 #7 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Never have. Never will. Rembrandt used lithographs? Huh? Most folks who puchase art on the ships are convinced they are purchasing collectibles that will appreciate in value...maybe so, but I am skeptical. Other folks just simply like what they buy. It's their money, and they enjoy the experience, so that's cool. I just wish the cruise lines would move the Circus out of the Centrum so the other 2,000 people on board could enjoy the space. JMHO LL I'm with you, I wish the art auction was moved into one of the lounges and out of the way. Most of the time the art is in the way and I hate it when the people are setting it up as you are standing there. They act if the art has more rights then the passengers. I don't understand why the cruise line doesn't lease a space to the Art company much like the shops on board. I know nothing about art am really not interested so I would never buy something which may or may not appreciate. Anyway that's my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipshape sam Posted September 17, 2006 #8 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I have never purchased and most likely never will. Having said that a couple of observations. They typically have the auctions 2-3 times during a cruise. I will most likely walk through that area at least once during one of them and look at some of the art. Secondly, they at times will have smaller targeted auctions, ie sports centric. I have passed on the champagne or mimosa if in the morning. The apprased value is in my opinion suspect. I would never pay a lot for a picture/painting onboard unless I already knew the general value. Obviously with the advent of the internet, if I saw something I really liked, I could try to determine a fair value by going on the internet. If I could not establish a value, I would then either pass on bidding or bid with the knowledge that I could be paying too much. Then there is the debate on what is too much. Here the phrase "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" comes in. If I pay $500 for something and feel like I got a great deal and cannot find a direct comparison elsewhere, then who can say I paided too much? I have read some reviews of the onboard auction houses and the reviewer's conclusion was that there is a lot of fluff in the stated values. If you think about it there has to be. Otherwise why would any sane person/company sell a product (painting/picture) that is supposedly worth $2500.00 for $500.00. It would be because no one is willing to pay $2500.00 or even $2000.00. The general definition of fair price is 'what a willing buyer is willing to pay without any other consideration or pressure to purchase' Thus, in the example above, the real value at least for that numbered/specific picture/painting is what the person onboard paid, NOT the stated value by the onboard auction company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teajak Posted September 17, 2006 #9 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I went to one art auction on a cruise, was given a raffle ticket and won. Cost me $35.00 shipping, $35.00 for appraisel, would cost at a minimum $250.00 to frame. Appraisel value is $500.00, there are six of the same thing on E-Bay going for $25.00 including shipping. A poster above mentions getting special perks when you spend $25,000. for art on a cruise, I really wouldn't get any good out of the perks after I realized what I had done and jumped off my balcony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drink-in-Hand/Toes-in-Sand Posted September 17, 2006 #10 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Having attended a number of Park West Auctions, both aboard ship and on land, I have to agree with a lot of things posted by banchote. First and foremost: don't buy it if you don't LOVE it! We recently moved into a new house and now have a place to display all the pieces we own--a good number of them purchased on cruises. Our friends and family come into our home and we enjoy sharing with them what we know of the artists and their respective styles. Many are pea green with envy over our collection, and all want to know how they can obtain similar works of art. We are pleased to share our experiences with all. That being said, we can unequivocably state that we love all the pieces we have purchased from Park West. We have a couple still in those big tubes that JTJ mentioned--but those pieces have been won in a raffle or given to us by Park West. :rolleyes: If we had purchased them, there might exist some buyers remorse... but we NEVER bid on anything that we don't want hanging in our home NO MATTER WHAT A GREAT DEAL we think it is. PERIOD. And therein lies the advice! Bid if you love it. If not, enjoy the free champagne and entertainment for an hour. And pity the soul that believes he will get thousands for his "Elvis on Velvet." Although I don't think you'll find that one, or "Dogs at Cards" in the Park West catalog. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfishner Posted September 17, 2006 #11 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I have bought art on ships in the past, did not on my last cruise. If you think it is for an investment your making a mistake. I bought what I liked did not spend thousands of dollars, even came with frames which probably cost more then the picture, but framing and mattes cost $$$$. I live in Florida so I would not let them ship it, just took it off the ship. Did I get a good deal, yes I did, with frames, matte and pictue do I still enjoy what I bought yes I do. A couple of people on the last cruise I was on bought a series of Peter Max for $25,000. I do like the art auctions they are fun to watch the actioner in action. One thing I really enjoyed that was on the last cruise was a art lecture which was actually quite informative. To me it is like gambling in the casinos you just have to know your limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dak_friendly Posted September 17, 2006 #12 Share Posted September 17, 2006 A clear example of the type of "artist" is Thomas Kinkade. 60 Minutes did an story on him and it is appalling. It basically showed how people are collecting "art" like they were collecting Beanie Babies. The stuff you see is reproduced junk. Mostly posters. Maybe a print done on a canvas like material where some assistant in a factory like setting globbed some paint here and there. Some paintings are done by a hired assistant walking by each canvas set up in rows applying the same brushstroke to each canvas one at a time before going to the next brushstroke. The "master" images I've seen onboard are prints taken from discarded etchings. The artist didn't destroy their printing block or plate after they were finished using it. Picasso, Dali, Miro, Chagall, etc... They went through a phase where they printed artwork, but that phase was very excessive. It is also easily reproduced and constantly forged. Like a previous person stated, you purchase a representation of what you want onboard and they pull a copy from their warehouse, then overcharge you for shipping and framing. But hey, free inferior quality champagne is free inferior quality champagne ... And it is great to listen to what people pay for the junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taf Posted September 17, 2006 #13 Share Posted September 17, 2006 My brother in law "bought" an expensive picture at an Auction on board ship a couple of years ago. The price was rising, and rising and in the end his bid of 2500 dollars was the last bid and was accepted. My sister was SHOCKED, and really nervous about how they could pay - but he was cool. He said he was sure that the first picture is always just to get the bidding going and it would be given to him for free. The auctioneer then REALLY gave him the picture for FREE, plus shipping & framing costs back home!!. It took some nerve, but luck of the Irish - he won! Don`t think I´ll risk it myself though:o - and bye the way, the picture is horrendous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsluvr Posted September 17, 2006 #14 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Do you think those onboard art "experts" cruise for free? Their expenses, their salary (or commission), plus a "boot" to the cruise line really raises the price of poker. There may be a "free" print (watch out for framing and shipping fees), but there isn't a free ride! Personally, I wouldn't buy a used car from those guys. But that's just me. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeFamily Posted September 17, 2006 Author #15 Share Posted September 17, 2006 A poster above mentions getting special perks when you spend $25,000. for art on a cruise, I really wouldn't get any good out of the perks after I realized what I had done and jumped off my balcony. No kidding!! I'm with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banchote Posted September 18, 2006 #16 Share Posted September 18, 2006 dak - i'd have to disagree with you in regards to your entire post. i'd love to know where you got your info. my wife and i like to fancy ourselves as patrons of the arts and we don't exclusively buy from park west. we spend a lot of money in art every year, because we like supporting the arts, we like art, we treat it as a long term investment, because we do our homework and we can afford to purchase the art we do. the fact is this, i think you find two groups of people, maybe three. people who understand art, people who don't and people who don't care and i think we have a number of people in the last two categories posting and giving their opinions here which is cool but much of it is uninformed. forgetting park west for a second - if you study how art is created and how masters put together their works you'll learn very quickly that they produced copper plates for etchings (rembrandt, goya, durer, picasso) to lithos to seriagraphs to original pieces. if you feel that these are posters and are worthless than you should speak to every major art gallery and museum in the world. they will correct you very quickly. in fact most of the work you'll find by people like goya and durer today in museums are etchings only. i know everyone always cites the oil on canvas originals as the art that they want and assume everything else is a poster, but realistically that isn't the case. when places like christies and sothebys regularily sell lithos and seriagraphs in their auctions should prove that these things aren't posters. however to take it one step further and to stay that you're getting a mass produced piece pulled from parkwest's warehouse is saying that you're being frauded. if you check with the different better business bureaus you'll notice that park west has kept a fairly clear record and in fact have never had a piece of art returned for lack of authenticity. anyone that says they got a fake from park west or didn't get what they thought they were purchasing should do some investigating before making such allegations there is a reason the auctioneers tell you that park west has never had anything returned for lack of authenticity, they want you to be sure you aren't getting screwed and so if you feel you are don't knock the company until you find out the truth. going to the appraisal and an appraisal being "suspect" i think it's no different than getting your jewelry appraised, there is a value you pay and a value the art is appraised for (ps if you go to the gallery in michigan the works of art are sold on the walls at appraised value not at a discount) no differnt than buying a diamond and it's appraised value is more than the price you pay for it. and quite frankly an appraisal simply means this: the value it would cost you to replace the art at a later date. thus i give my insurance company a copy of all of our invoices and appraisals and my art is always insured for the appraised value -- by the way the insurance company always does their homework to ensure they aren't insuring frauds etc and it's another level of accreditation/validation for the art that you purchase. there is a great website that talks about this guy that got screwed by park west and saying he was ripped off and called the better business bureau and got in touch with his lawyer because he felt he was ripped off by park west after speaking to a local gallery owner. well it turns out as you read through the entire posting that the guys comes back on the website later and explains he was wrong, that he wasn't misled by park west but that the local gallery owner wanted himto buy art from him and didn't realize this guy would freak out the way he did (this local gallery offered to do an apprasail based on a photograph of the works the gentleman bought which is impossible) my point is this guy freaked and realized he was completey wrong but it's a really informative post. re: kinkade and other artists - not everything is a collectible and any auctioneer worth their salt will tell you that everything is not collectible there is a difference between buying a piece that has an edition of 3000 and another that has an edition of 30. someone up above misunderstood what i said earlier -- rembrandt didn't use lithos he did etchings in a copper plate and pressed them. what i was getting on about was that all these artists used mass production type methods (that were numered or limited) so that people and collectors could get their works. again i think it comes down to homework anyone who just shows up and does no homework on what they are going to buy might overpay for what they are purchasing. why would you spend 25k on something you don't understand, can't afford or "get" that's like going to buy a car and purchasing the first thing that drives by you, or worse the one whose color you prefer as opposed to checking it out and doing your homework. we went on quite a few cruises prior to purchasing anything of significant value, we did our homework and have never spent more than we could afford nor would we ever purchase something we weren't absolutely sure about. which is why when we do spend 25k on a piece of art i'm not as teajak said jumping off the balcony of my suite i'm comfortable with it. art is no different than going into port and purchasing a limitied edition audemars piguet watch for 35k or a patek phillipe watch for even more. you have to know what you're buying, get utility from it and be able to afford. if anyone was impulsively buying art because they thought they could make money on it -- well i think it's foolish. anyway that's my opinion and that's all it is. we love to buy art, we were thrilled to find art we could purchase on the ships that we feel is a good buy and taking it one step further we no longer purchase art on the ships because park west flys to private auctions now and we buy our art there as we get some really unique works. but more over i caution anyone that is even thinking about purchasing art. do your homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.