dwgreenlee

In the language regarding Vaccine proof, princess indicates they will accept a "QR" code which I assume means they will accept a valid "Smart Health Card" (which is a QR code) issued by an authorized health care provider.  This code can be verified by the "Smart Health Card Verifier" app which can be installed on an iphone.  The Smart Health Card is an international standard and can be generated automatically by the MyChart app/web portal. 

In the language regarding proof of a positive test, princess states they will accept a "Digital COVID Certificate" (DCC) which is also a QR code but is a different system for travel within the European Union and is validated by the DCC portal.  I do not understand why the DCC is mentioned for North American departures.

Having the positive test results seems to be the key but there is a lot of language in the princess rules regarding having the "original" test result.  This seems odd since almost all test results are delivered electronically and printed out.  I could print them out on heavy bond or even card stock to make them more official - maybe even add a watermark.  I have found web sites that IF you provide the test results THEY will provide you the necessary letter - for a fee.  However, the princess language indicates you only require the tests results.

This is pretty confusing.  I have a Smart Health Card for (1) my four vaccine doses and (2) my positive test results.  I have printed copies of the QR codes and can bring them up on my phone - or any computer with internet access - I can also scan them with my - or any other phone - and verify they are valid.  

Will this be good enough for princess - I have no ideal.  I also have no idea if the Medalion app will work but that is another story.

1 hour ago, BrendaJ said:

I think there is a very easy solution to the Florida ban.  This is I what would put in Celebrity’s rules:

 

Celebrity cruises welcomes all passengers and vaccination is not required.

 

The following rules are in place on board as health precautions:

1. Masks must be worn in all public areas at all times.  When eating, masks must be pulled down only to allow food to enter the mouth, and must be put back in place while chewing. 
2. Dining and entertainment will be restricted to outdoor venues. 
3. Passengers must present themselves to the ship’s medical officer at 5:00 a.m. daily for a COVID test.   This test will cost $500 per person per day, payable by the passenger.  Any passenger testing positive for COVID will be quarantined in the brig until the next port, where they will debark.  Repatriation is at the passenger’s expense. 
4. No passengers will be permitted to debark the ship at ports, to protect the health of our destination populations, except in the case of rule #3 and the end of the cruise.
5. Celebrity will provide an orange hat to all passengers, which will include a device sounding an alarm when less than 6 feet of distance is maintained with other passengers and crew.   This hat must be worn by all passengers at all times. 

 

The above rules apply to all passengers.

 

Children under 12, and passengers volunteering to show proof of full vaccination will be exempt from the above rules and will have full access to all ship venues and ports.

Shorter version:

Upon boarding all passengers shall proceed to their assigned stateroom.  Passengers who have voluntary shown proof of vaccination, choose to show such proof upon reaching international waters, or are under 12 years of age may leave their stateroom and enjoy the entire ship.  All others shall enjoy the cruise from their stateroom understanding that no crew member or other guest may enter their stateroom for any reason.

7 hours ago, oskidunker said:

If you cant ask for proof of vaccination in Florida, how can they sail from there and meet the cdc requirements?

Only my non-expert thoughts but two possible workarounds:

(1) Have the flag state - Bermuda for most Princess Ships - do a medical clearance (including vaccination status) for each passenger prior to allowing the release of boarding document.  International communication between passengers - except perhaps in Florida - and Bermuda Authorities would/should not be governed by Florida law.

(2) Have CDC reps control the medical clearance (including vaccination status) for boarding in Florida.  The federal CDC personnel would/should not be subject to Florida law.

Either option would add a legal complexity to the boarding process that the cruise lines would like to avoid. Thus, the more likely course of action would be delay starting from Florida.

Is there any information regarding restrictions on tours/activities/interactions allowed for non U.S. passengers ?

 

Logic would suggest that the U.S. regulations wouldn't apply to non U.S citizens and these passengers would be able to do what they like, as they could with a do it yourself visit.

 

It's going to be interesting to learn from people who return the level of intervention/supervision of passengers by the cruise line.

If your cruise departs/returns to the US, the rules apply to all passengers. On an interesting note though, enforcement is done by the Treasury Department months - sometimes years - after the travel. There really does not seem any way that would work for non US Citizens who are no longer in the US. The risk remains that the Cruise Line polices may interfere with independant plans.

If you are not a US Citizen/Person you might want to consider the MSC Cruise that does not even make a port call in the US.

I still don't understand why it would be considered the least restrictive when you are doing exactly what the law's intention is- supporting a peaceful transition and civil society.

 

One does not even have to question the use of liberal- you are doing exactly what it's saying. That not liberal or least restrictive- it's what is wanted to happen. You are supporting a free market in a communist country. And you are letting them speak more freely than they have (as we think) in the past. AND none of them are going to jail for it.

 

I just don't understand why people object to that.

I take no position - in this forum - as to the merits of bring change to Cuba. My discussion was simply on the point that if all P2P travel, now requiring some sort of US sponsored tour guide, could be moved to the "support for the Cuban people" exception (licenses), not requiring a tour guide, the change made by the current administration on 09 Nov to eliminate individual P2P travel would be meaningless.

I don't think that poster meant liberal in the political sense. They meant it in the sense of the most permissive (least restrictive) interpretation of the law.

 

 

Sent from my aosp_harpia using Tapatalk

Correct. I should have used a term like "least restrictive" - I forgot the political emotion tied to the term 'liberal" now. I will add it to my bad word list. I apologize to anyone offended.

Last week, people aboard our cruise reported their ship's tour was guided by an employee of the Cuban government, aboard a bus owned by the Cuban government and took them to sites specifically listed on the list of banned sites. Some of them were worried about having broken the law by participating in that tour. I am 100 % comfortable that my private tour, meals in privately owned restaurants, visits to private galleries and non banned historic sites and meetings with artists, musicians, shop owners and students met the spirit and letter of the law. I'll happily defend my trip if asked by the Treasury Department.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

I would suspect, as you noted, that many if not most of the ships tours were not compliant with the new regulations. While the US Government provided several months notice of the Nov 9 regulations, the actual Cuba Restricted List was only published a few days earlier, making compliance for existing planned tours almost impossible. I am sure the ships tours will improve but I also expect the Cuban government will resist allowing the necessary changes. Still, in this case, the cruise line would be the more likely target for enforcement since they advertised their tours as compliant. Even if passengers were targeted the cruise line, from a business, if not legal, perspective would be forced to defend them.

It also sounds like your tour was compliant with the P2P requirements. The new regulations do not ban the use of private tours - in fact, properly done, they just as likely (perhaps more) to be compliant as ships tours. Enforcement against individuals is extremely rare but, should it occur, the cruise line would be much less likely to assist the defense of passengers who arranged their own tours.

My discussion here did not take a position on the debate between private and ships tours - both may be compliant or flawed. I only urged caution in the use of exceptions (licences) to the sanctions that were not well proven for use by casual vistors. The P2P exception is the only one that is generally accepted (hundereds of thousand visitors) for what might, the sanctions not withstanding, be called tourism.

I also noted that I, personally, would not be willing to take the time or risk to plan a private tour. I would let the cruise line and their lawyers sort that out for me - but I do respect the postion of passengers that chose to spend the effort to improve their experence.

I am glad you enjoyed your trip and I appreciate your sharing your experience.

I'm not so sure. The current administration could have rolled back the rules allowing cruise ships and commercial flights to travel to the island, but chose not to. I don't think they realistically anticipate all these ships and planes traveling with hundreds of journalists and volunteers on humanitarian missions.

 

Sent from my aosp_harpia using Tapatalk

I agree with your points, but the administration could expect - and expressly intended - people to travel in escorted groups to prevent US Citizens/Persons spending money on entities on the "Cuban restricted list" - a goal that is impossible if you allow travelers to wander on their own.

Taking action against a few of the new Journalists, Humanitarians, Priests, etc. would put the original objective back on track. Just not sure it is worth the risk to get to do a private tour vs a ship's tour,

Cruises and flights are both now a legal way for US citizens to travel to Cuba. So now more people can use the "support cuban people" licence. The fact that it was very hard to get there didn't make it more or less legal, just hard to get there. Once there, the licence was always available.

 

If you flew via Mexico or Canada, there was no need to get a licence. Just like it turns out that citizens who have been always ok to travel to Cuba have to use a US licence when they come from here (which I didn't know about until recently).

 

None the less, I still don't understand how it can be interpreted as not supporting them when you spend money on an entrepreneur but it's ok when you go on a state sponsored tour (aka a bus). That makes no sense at all. It DOES make sense that supporting the small businesses that are individuals is supporting a peaceful transition.

To be clear, a US Citizen/Person, by law, requires a licence to visit and spend money in Cuba even it transported by the Starship Enterprise. That said, traveling thru a third country made the risk of detection by US authorities pretty low.

You can parse the language in the "support for the Cuban people" exception (licences) to satisfy a common sense determination that certain travel is legal, however, such logic ignores three major facts:

(1) the exception has not been well used in the past,

(2) the current administration is seeking to make travel to Cuba more restrictive, and

(3) liberal interperation of ths exception basicly invalidates all Cuba travel restrictions.

This exception is being well touted by travel companies which can no longer meet the P2P exception. Somehow I do not think the current administration is going to allow the new restrictions to be circumvented so easily.

It's also not been legal for any US carrier to take you to Cuba from a US origin up until recently. So there was no way to travel to Cuba and even USE the support Cuban people licence.

There are a few things that need clarification here:

First, whether or not the cruise line allows you off the ship has no bearing on your responsibility as a US Citizen/Person to comply with the US sanctions on Cuba. This is your personal responsibility. It is worthy to note that your ship is not registered in the US, does not fly the US flag and most of the crew, including the Master, are not US Citizens/Persons.

Second, the fact that you get on and off the ship w/o problems and you clear US Customs w/o problem does not mean you are in the clear. You travel will have been reported to the Office of Foreign Assets Control, US Treasury, who may take enforcement action up to five years from your travel.

Third, the "support for the Cuban people" exception has been on the books since the inception of the sanctions. If you could easily use this exception, there would have never been any real restrictions on visiting Cuba. Prior to using this exception you, or your lawyer, may want to research some of the cases where this exception has been allowed or not allowed and travelers have been sanctioned.

Fourth, a lot of people are relying on recent precedent of non-enforcement by the past administration. I am not sure you can really predict the actions of the current administration regarding enforcement.

My core point, if you are going off on your own you might want to ask yourself - "do you feel lucky."

The US government or customs doesn't ask when you return about what you did or didn't do nor do they have the resources to even care for individuals. That's the reason for the affidavit. Clearing customs after being in Cuba is as easy as clearing it after a long weekend in London. Humanitarian work could easily be construed as spending money on lunch in a private family owned restaurant or even taking a box of toothpaste and giving them out to those in need. Again- no one will check what you did but you can always do something if it'll make you feel better about meeting the requirements.

Yes,

 

 

I remember at least 5 or so years ago, our congregation offered a learning tour to Cuba. it had U.S. gov't approva l and had the dates worked for Dh and me, we would have gone. Trere was not much free time to go to the beach, or the like, as i RECALL It was truly a person to person learning experience.

Yes, To spend any money on dinner or souvenieres, or4 whatever it is likely that money goes directly to the governemnt and not the Shopkeepr. the point is to help the people without enriching the government. Hard to do on one's own, as you say.

 

Am I correct in thinking we wer allowed to gbe in Cuba for years vutt could not spend any mmoney. How would one do that ? except i if one has family or good friends there.

What you are talking about was called the "fully hosted" programs where everything was paid by third parties not subject to US Jurisdiction. It was very rare that those were approved and US Treasury required travelers to "overcome the presumption" of spending money while visiting Cuba. In such circumstances you had to prove that even your marina and visa fees were paid by non US parties. I did read about US Persons as crew on foreign flag boats that used this exception.

I do not think t he need is meeting Cuba's wishes as much as it ist he necessity for U.S. travelers to Cuba to meet U.S. laws. When we return to U.S. we mustprrove to U.S. author ties we have met the requirements wha t we did while in Cu ba as to humanitarian work an d person to person interactions. with the people of Cuba.

There are two dichotomies here. The first, and most important, most cruise passengers are tourists and want to do tourist things - but tourism in Cuba, by US Persons, is a violation of US Law. Second, tens of thousands of US "tourists" visit Cuba every year but the US Government, in recent history, has applied the limited enforcement resources to action against only a few large entities. Thus, the real issue is not if US Visitors are violating US law but rather will your activities (individually or collectively) reach the level where the US Treasury chooses to take enforcement action.

Some people are locking on to the "support for the Cuban people" exception as a way to avoid the escorted tours, however, that exception has been on the books over the full history of the sanctions and has never been allowed for simple individual visitors - only those genuinely involved in humanitarian work.

The Oceania website FAQ says (in part),

"OFAC requires that individuals traveling under a group people-to-people license participate in a full-time schedule of group people-to-people exchange activities through a U.S. organization accompanied by a U.S. individual of the sponsoring organization that result in meaningful interaction between the travelers and individuals in Cuba."

 

I have been unable to find a definition of "full-time". Specifically, I'd like to know how many hours per day I would be required to participate in approved activities. Does anyone know?

Oceania is simply quoting the US Treasury web site on the regulations. The term "full time" has not been defined further by the government in the context of cruise visitors. You can research the Treasury site at:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/cuba.aspx

I spoke with a HAL rep about Cuba and she said thatyou must take an 8-hour tour, (HAL or private) in order to go back ashore onyour own. Then I spoke with a HAL shoreexcursion rep and she said that after an 8-hour tour that you could NOT leavethe ship and go ashore on your own. Shealso said that every guest onboard had to leave the ship, while in Havana, anddo an 8-hour tour. All the shore excursionsposted for our sailing are no longer than 7½ hours long.

 

Who is correct? Can anyone shed any light on this or clear up the confusion?

The US Government sanction rules on Cuba changed on 09 Nov 2017. HAL, nor any Carnival Corp. ship, has called on Cuba since the rules change - nor do I think any policy updates have been published.

Two changes (at least) affect cruise visitors:

First, individual people-to-people travel is no longer allowed. You must take a "full time" tour provided by an entity "subject to US Jurisdiction." Neither of the quoted terms are well defined in the context of a cruise visitor. There are other options for complying with the Cuba sanctions but the P2P is the most used by cruise visitors.

Second, you may not engage in a direct transaction (i.e. spend money) with any entity listed on the new "Cuba Restricted List" published by the State Department. Many hotels and other tourist facilities are on this list.

You can find all this information at:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/cuba.aspx

The cruise lines that have called on Cuba are converging to an industry standard solution of:

Option 1: You may take a ship's program that, in the opinion of their lawyers, will meet the new requirements, or,

Option 2: You may go off on your own assuming full individual responsibility for complying all of US Goverment regulations regarding the Cuba sanctions.

You will be required to sign an affidavit, at boarding, as to how you will comply with the sanctions. The extent that the cruise line will police these new rules is unknown except they will not let you board without the affiddvit. How the current administration will enforce the new rules is also unknown. The sanctions Law does provide for an individual cival penalty of up to $250,000.00 for violations.

But it seems that Carnival's interpretation of full-time my differ considerably from the US government's. Carnival is even selling evening excursions that explicitly do not comply with the people-to-people rules.

I would give Carnival some time on this. The next Carnival ship to call on Cuba is the Paradise which will stop in Havana on 19 Feb 2018. The next Carnival Corporation brand to stop is Holland America Veendam on 27 Dec 2017. I am sure their lawyers are working this project.

The two cruise lines who have called on Cuba since the new rules went into effect are RCI and Oceania - Azamara Quest will call tomorrow. I also looked at American Airlines, Copa Air (Panama), Air Havana, and Aero Mexico - who are currently transporting passengers to Cuba. All - cruise and air lines above - have very similar policies. They require an affidavit that a US person - traveling to Cuba - is doing so for authorized purposes. None indicated that you prove anything or showed any attempt to police your activities once you get to Cuba.

I did find one exception to this standard. MSC cruises does not show their Cuba cruises (from Mexico) on the US site. If you go to the Europe site they warn that US passports holders may not travel on their Cuba cruises - but this would be a very usual move for Carnival.

Those are the old requirements . If you go to destinations pick Cuba then scroll down you will see" things you need to know " and that is where the new requirements are

Could you post links please.

They have updated their website .The new rules are under destinations Cuba then scroll down to things you need to know and the new rules are there . They have a cruise to Cuba in Feb,

Could you post links to what you are seeing. There should be a Q&A document and a Guest Affidavit. Below are links to what I see and they do not reflect the new requirements.

https://help.carnival.com/ci/fattach/get/1685686/1500309254/redirect/1/filename/A%20%20cubaguestQA%20(17%20Jul%2017)%20CLEAN.pdf

https://help.carnival.com/ci/fattach/get/1553089/1497626123/redirect/1/filename/guest-affidavit-final%20(13.Apr.17)-%20FINAL.PDF

I am sailing on Carnival Feb.17th . to Cuba

The new rules are only 11 days old. Carnival has not had a ship call on Cuba since they went into effect. I would think Carnival will update their polices regarding Cuba and advise you prior to your embarking. I would not base any decisions on the current web site as I do not think it reflects the new rules.

I was curious to see what Carnival says, so I googled their website. Here's an excerpt:

 

Q: How do the people-to-people programs work?A: People-to-people programs are a permitted category for U.S. guests to visitCuba. These programs must include a full-time schedule of activities that willcreate educational interactions between guests and the Cuban people. Activitiescan include shore excursions offered by Carnival and/or guests can opt toparticipate in a self-guided program. However, such self-guided guests must stillhave a full-time schedule of authorized activities and must maintain their ownrecords demonstrating such a full-time schedule.

Q: If my cruise stays in Cuba overnight, do I have to engage in people-to-people activities both days? A: Yes. For Day 2, any guest who wishes to get off the ship will need to participatein a people-to-people activity/shore excursion. They cannot rely on the prior day’speople-to-people activities for the next day. For those sailings that depart at noonon Day 2, guests wishing to get off the ship will need to participate in 2-3 hours ofpeople-to-people activities.

Q: Does Carnival offer shore excursions that comply with one of the 12 generallicenses?A: Carnival will offer optional shore excursion programs that will fully comply withall the requirements for people-to-people programs. In planning activities ashore,guests should keep in mind that people-to-people activities must be fulfilledbefore guests can engage in free time. Evening shore excursions offered byCarnival do not comply with the people-to-people guidelines and cannot beconsidered to be part of the required full schedule of activities.

Q: How much free time is there?A: After completion of a full-time schedule of people-to-people activities, guestsare free to explore as they wish.

 

It's interesting to see how the various cruise lines interpret the regulations. Carnival seems to really focus on the "full time" aspect of touring. At least I'd have to give kudos to Carnival for not implying that cruisers MUST take Carnival excursions to comply with the regs. After reading the post on what Azamara is saying, it appears Az isn't quite as forthcoming on the subject as Carnival. Of course, perhaps their interpretation is different from Carnival's.

I do not think Carnival has updated their site since the new rules went into effect as self guided programs are no longer allowed. Carnival does not currently have an ships calling on Cuba.

According to the Carnival web site you can not disembark in Cuba without a planned three hour excursion that meets the requirements.After you fulfill the requirements you are allowed to wander for that day only . We are doing an overnight so each day requires three hours of an excursion that meets the requirements or you cannot disembark.Carnival is offering very few excursions.We planned a private excursion for the first day but now at a loss of what to do on the following day. I am seriously thinking of cancelling .

Carnival has not updated their site since the new rules when into effect as they currently are not calling on Cuba. The above language has always been there.

You cannot meet the new requirements with a three hour tour. You must have a full time schedule of educational activities provided by a entity subject to US Jurisdiction - unless you meet some other exception to the embargo or you are grandfathered. I would think Carnival will follow RCI and Oceania in modifying their travel affidavit and providing email/letters updating their booked passengers - but that remains to be seen.

Thanks for that link. I was sure that the Treasury website wouldn't include details about how enforcement is rare due to the levels of resources available.

There is a link on the Treasury page giving you a summary of all enforcement actions back to 2003. For example, in 2017, to date, there are 15 actions completed. This is for all sanctioned countries - not just Cuba. The link is:

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/CivPen/Pages/civpen-index2.aspx

Even if you back a couple decades, in the heyday of enforcement, there were only a few hundred actions per year and Treasury was using a method called "pre-violation notices" where you were offered the opportunity to settle, at a discounted rate, the issue without Treasury even bothering to develop the necessary support for a violation notice.

There is simply no way Treasury is going to go after the current tens of thousands of cruise passengers. The cruise lines, themselves, may not be so safe.

All that said, in the world of violating federal law, I am not going to take the chance for something with as low a reward as visiting Cuba. I want to be very comfortable that I am in compliance with US Law, Cuban Law, and the polices of the cruise line. Right now, I am not at that comfort level.